Seattle Newspaper: Cubs possibly interested in Bedard

[nilodnayr]

Does everyone ignore Bedard's injury history based on his one dominating year where he was also injured? You know, Rich Hill was 27 this year, and Bedard was 27 in 2006 (his first non-injured year and, also, his only non-injured year in his 4 full year career) and their numbers weren't too far off. (insert "Bedard is in a harder division" counter defense here)

 

I'd be too wary of giving up too much for a guy who has only been able to stay healthy for one year this far in his career when we could be sitting on someone who has the potential to put up similar numbers. I'm not saying Bedard wouldn't be a good addition, but giving up so much for him just seems like a big mistake. And since they won't expect anything but the best for him, meaning Hill or Pie, I say stay away.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Blanton, but I don't think he'd cost nearly as much as Bedard, and I personally would rather see Z-Lilly-Hill-Blanton-Marquis/Dempster/Whoever other than Z-Bedard-Lilly-Marquis-Dempster/whoever. But that's just me

 

2006 Bedard's opponents OPS 775 (dropped to 744 last year)

2007 Hill's opponents OPS 730

 

Again, these stats are not OPS against, these are the batters the OPS for the year that they faced.

[nilodnayr]

I'd be OK sending Pie, Marmol and Marshall to the O's for Bedard.

 

Sign Mike Cameron to play center. Should be reasonable enough in terms of cost. He'd play great defense and provide a little pop from center -- plus, he'd no longer be able to terrorize Rich Hill.

 

I like the idea of Cameron, but if you trade Pie, who plays CF for 25 games? I don't think it's likely they put Fukudome there for the start and then move him back.

 

Even with Pie, Marmol, Marshall (which is a decent deal), that's not enough if the Reds are offering Bailey and Hamilton as has been rumored.

 

My impression of the Reds farm system is that it is extremely top heavy (but awesome at the top). Whereas we have quanity over quality, with much of the more intriguing players in the lower levels. What I'm trying to get at is that given the 40 man roster crunch, we might be able to throw in a few non-40 man guys that MacPhail could be very interested in that might put us over the edge in comparison to the Reds.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'd be OK sending Pie, Marmol and Marshall to the O's for Bedard.

 

Sign Mike Cameron to play center. Should be reasonable enough in terms of cost. He'd play great defense and provide a little pop from center -- plus, he'd no longer be able to terrorize Rich Hill.

 

I like the idea of Cameron, but if you trade Pie, who plays CF for 25 games? I don't think it's likely they put Fukudome there for the start and then move him back.

 

Even with Pie, Marmol, Marshall (which is a decent deal), that's not enough if the Reds are offering Bailey and Hamilton as has been rumored.

 

My impression of the Reds farm system is that it is extremely top heavy (but awesome at the top). Whereas we have quanity over quality, with much of the more intriguing players in the lower levels. What I'm trying to get at is that given the 40 man roster crunch, we might be able to throw in a few non-40 man guys that MacPhail could be very interested in that might put us over the edge in comparison to the Reds.

 

The 40 man roster crunch also makes it more intriguing to go after 1-2 blue chippers rather than settle for 3-4 second rate guys.

[nilodnayr]

I'd be OK sending Pie, Marmol and Marshall to the O's for Bedard.

 

Sign Mike Cameron to play center. Should be reasonable enough in terms of cost. He'd play great defense and provide a little pop from center -- plus, he'd no longer be able to terrorize Rich Hill.

 

I like the idea of Cameron, but if you trade Pie, who plays CF for 25 games? I don't think it's likely they put Fukudome there for the start and then move him back.

 

Even with Pie, Marmol, Marshall (which is a decent deal), that's not enough if the Reds are offering Bailey and Hamilton as has been rumored.

 

My impression of the Reds farm system is that it is extremely top heavy (but awesome at the top). Whereas we have quanity over quality, with much of the more intriguing players in the lower levels. What I'm trying to get at is that given the 40 man roster crunch, we might be able to throw in a few non-40 man guys that MacPhail could be very interested in that might put us over the edge in comparison to the Reds.

 

The 40 man roster crunch also makes it more intriguing to go after 1-2 blue chippers rather than settle for 3-4 second rate guys.

 

I agree, but from all reports it appears all the Reds are willing to let go are Bailey and Votto. They have balked at including Bruce or Cueto.

[Abe Frohman]

Put me down as another interested and in favor of Kenny Lofton becoming a Cub again. Pie has great potential defensively, but somewhere I saw his minor league splits against LHP - and they are not encouraging. Maybe someone can elaborate on that?

 

I think Lofton could be a good backup for Pie and occasional platoon mate - if that is something KLo might be interested in.

[ThePenguin11]

IF we can get Bedard without giving up Pie or Hill i'm all for it. Think they would bite on Murton, Marshall, Gallagher, and a 4th?

 

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes.

 

Felix Pie first 177 AB:

.215/.270/.333

 

Alex Rodriguez first 184 AB:

.223/.270/.348

 

Boy, I bet the Mariners are glad that they didn't give up and trade him away after the first 184 AB.

 

But did the Mariners have a hispanic(sort of) SS prospect fail to meet expectations in the years prior???

 

HUH??

 

It's a great idea to temper enthusiasm on prospects, but so many people take this to the extreme. Every guy who puts up good numbers in the minors gets "Dubois LOL!!" Every guy who's fast with some power gets "Corey with a K!!! LOL!!!!" Every SP prospect who doesn't dazzle from day one gets "The great Juan Cruz HAHAHA" Every top prospect gets "HEE STRIKE OUT!!!!"

 

I agree, give Pie some time. He has been successful at every level he has played at so far and is still very young.

 

Most of the time when we give our prospects time, they don't pan out and lose trade value. I've watched him play and I think his approach sucks. I don't think anyone knows where the hell he belongs in a lineup, because everyone hopes he still projects for power, but there's been no proof of that. His defense is his only asset in my opinion.

 

Unlike the prospect hoarders on this board, I want to win now. This year. 2008. I'm sick and freaking tired of waiting until next year. I'm sick of being conservative and hoping things pan out. Our farm system blows. If people seem to think we have valuable chips in there, they can have them. The people teaching these kids are sorely lacking in teaching patience and fundamentals and it's shown for years.

 

Go through the list and for every Zambrano and Hill there are five Jason Dubois', five Hee Seop Choi's, five Corey Patterson's, five Ryan Harvey's, etc. I've been watching this board for years and seeing people say we can't possibly trade Dubois, Patterson, etc. It's an ugly cycle. No matter how much you grow attached to these prospects you have to know that the odds are far more in favor that they may never suit up for your favorite ball club, let alone become an all-star caliber player.

 

You can't have it both ways. You can't say you want to win a World Series at all costs and also not consider all of your prospects as tradeable assets. Nobody is untouchable. Nobody. Not after 100 years of losing. No way. Think about it: 100 years. End it already. This team needs to acquire whoever it takes to put them in competition with Boston, Cleveland, Detroit, Anaheim and New York. As Cubs fans, This should be our minimum expectation. And not just this year, every year. Otherwise you're just the same as the suckers they've been pandering to for a whole century.

[ThePenguin11]

IF we can get Bedard without giving up Pie or Hill i'm all for it. Think they would bite on Murton, Marshall, Gallagher, and a 4th?

 

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes.

 

Felix Pie first 177 AB:

.215/.270/.333

 

Alex Rodriguez first 184 AB:

.223/.270/.348

 

Boy, I bet the Mariners are glad that they didn't give up and trade him away after the first 184 AB.

 

But did the Mariners have a hispanic(sort of) SS prospect fail to meet expectations in the years prior???

 

HUH??

 

It's a great idea to temper enthusiasm on prospects, but so many people take this to the extreme. Every guy who puts up good numbers in the minors gets "Dubois LOL!!" Every guy who's fast with some power gets "Corey with a K!!! LOL!!!!" Every SP prospect who doesn't dazzle from day one gets "The great Juan Cruz HAHAHA" Every top prospect gets "HEE STRIKE OUT!!!!"

 

Well thats half of the crowd.

 

The other half is saying Pie and Colvin for Santana? NO WAY!!! Why give up Kenny Lofton and Tony Gwynn for a 29 year old pitcher?

 

I've seen three comparisons here. Can you guys let me know if you're seriously comparing Arod, the player people are saying may end up being one of the TOP 10 PLAYERS OF ALL TIME to Felix Pie...and Kenny Lofton, a 15 year vet with 2,400 hits and a career .300/.370 line...and Tyler Colvin with Tony Gwynn, one of baseballs greatest all-time pure hitters? Please tell me I completely missed the sarcasm. Please.

[Mephistopheles]

IF we can get Bedard without giving up Pie or Hill i'm all for it. Think they would bite on Murton, Marshall, Gallagher, and a 4th?

 

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes.

 

Felix Pie first 177 AB:

.215/.270/.333

 

Alex Rodriguez first 184 AB:

.223/.270/.348

 

Boy, I bet the Mariners are glad that they didn't give up and trade him away after the first 184 AB.

 

what a [expletive] comparison

 

let's see.....Pie was a decent prospect who was 22. Rodriguez was the best prospect in the game, probably the best prospect in the history of the game -- even better than Griffey Jr, and was 18.

 

 

you cant compare them dont pretend you can jesus

[PrimeTime]

I say do whatever it takes to get Bedard and Roberts and call it an offseason, Pitching staff and lineup then look really good..We don't need Roberts as much since the lineup is already looking good, but we definetley need to get another starter since the back of the rotation looks bad..If we have Z,Bedard,Lilly and Hill, I could care less who the number 5 is...If we have to trade Pie, who do we play in center then? Fukudome signed here because he wanted to play his natural position, So I don't see him going to CF right away...Would be nice if DeRosa of Theriot could play a good CF, then we don't need DeRo to sub and the lineup looks real good..

[Mephistopheles]

I say do whatever it takes to get Bedard and Roberts and call it an offseason, Pitching staff and lineup then look really good..We don't need Roberts as much since the lineup is already looking good, but we definetley need to get another starter since the back of the rotation looks bad..If we have Z,Bedard,Lilly and Hill, I could care less who the number 5 is...If we have to trade Pie, who do we play in center then? Fukudome signed here because he wanted to play his natural position, So I don't see him going to CF right away...Would be nice if DeRosa of Theriot could play a good CF, then we don't need DeRo to sub and the lineup looks real good..

 

you are not getting bedard and roberts without trading hill

 

if we're going after the two id try to pry bedard away for some package that does not include rich hill, maybe marmol, pie and some random crap but i dont think that there is any chance that bid will win him. trading hill for bedard straight up is probably a net loss for the team.

[Clem Fandango]

Does everyone ignore Bedard's injury history based on his one dominating year where he was also injured? You know, Rich Hill was 27 this year, and Bedard was 27 in 2006 (his first non-injured year and, also, his only non-injured year in his 4 full year career) and their numbers weren't too far off. (insert "Bedard is in a harder division" counter defense here)

 

I'd be too wary of giving up too much for a guy who has only been able to stay healthy for one year this far in his career when we could be sitting on someone who has the potential to put up similar numbers. I'm not saying Bedard wouldn't be a good addition, but giving up so much for him just seems like a big mistake. And since they won't expect anything but the best for him, meaning Hill or Pie, I say stay away.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Blanton, but I don't think he'd cost nearly as much as Bedard, and I personally would rather see Z-Lilly-Hill-Blanton-Marquis/Dempster/Whoever other than Z-Bedard-Lilly-Marquis-Dempster/whoever. But that's just me

 

2006 Bedard's opponents OPS 775 (dropped to 744 last year)

2007 Hill's opponents OPS 730

 

Again, these stats are not OPS against, these are the batters the OPS for the year that they faced.

 

Okay. Is that a testament to the worse hitting in the NL and the worse pitching in the AL? Or the better pitching in the NL and the better hitting in the AL?

 

I would also like to add that the opponents OPS of 730 was probably so low because Rich Hill is so stupendous that had he not been pitching it likely would've been 1.028 :wink:

[rawaction]

 

I've seen three comparisons here. Can you guys let me know if you're seriously comparing Arod, the player people are saying may end up being one of the TOP 10 PLAYERS OF ALL TIME to Felix Pie...and Kenny Lofton, a 15 year vet with 2,400 hits and a career .300/.370 line...and Tyler Colvin with Tony Gwynn, one of baseballs greatest all-time pure hitters? Please tell me I completely missed the sarcasm. Please.

 

First, yeah, I think you missed the sarcasm.

 

Secondly, why can't prospects be compared to Hall of Famers? People with similar skill sets are always compared, as they should. Nobody is saying Pie is a lock for 2500 hits. Nobody is saying Colvin is a Hall of Famer. Just saying that both have the potential to be very good ML hitters. At one point, Lofton and Gwynn were being compared to other people. Nobody knew Gwynn would win several batting titles and be a 1st ballot HOF.

[traderumor]

If they could somehow get this done without Hill, I'm all about it...but I just don't see that happening.

 

And why wouldn't some people trade Marmol? No reliever should ever be untouchable.

 

 

 

I personally feel that if the cubs could somehow get Roberts and Bedard without giving up Hill, the team becomes one of the favorites to win the NL. The key is keeping Hill though. I think the cubs have the pieces to make them consider a deal at the very least. I personally would pursue this deal hard and would be willing to give them a very good package that includes Marmol. I am thinking something like :

 

 

Cubs get : Bedard, Roberts

 

Orioles get : Pie, Marmol, Gallagher, Veal, Colvin, Cedeno

 

 

 

My plan after this would be to play De Rosa at SS. I feel he can do it. He has a good glove, a strong arm and is a great athlete. Sign Lofton to a 1 year deal to play CF. To fill the hole left by Marmol, i would either move Dempster back to the bullpen or sign Otsuka.

 

 

 

Roberts 2B

 

Lofton CF

 

Lee 1B

 

Ramirez 3B

 

Soriano LF

 

Fukudome RF

 

De Rosa SS

 

Soto C

 

 

Zambrano

 

Bedard

 

Lilly

 

Hill

 

Marquis

 

 

 

 

Wood

 

Howry

 

 

Dempster/ Otsuka

 

Hart

 

Wuertz

 

Eyre

 

 

 

I don't know if the cubs have the money to make all these moves but if this somehow could get done, the cubs would have one very strong team and would be one of the favorites in the NL.

[jersey cubs fan]

Go through the list and for every Zambrano and Hill there are five Jason Dubois', five Hee Seop Choi's, five Corey Patterson's, five Ryan Harvey's, etc. I've been watching this board for years and seeing people say we can't possibly trade Dubois, Patterson, etc.

 

A) One Zambrano for every five Dubois is probably an excellenct ratio.

 

B) You could not have possibly seen people say we can't possibly trading Dubois. It just never happened. The revisionist history of Dubois has gotten out of control. Dubois was never a big time prospect that everybody loved. Dubois was a guy some people thought could be halfway decent if they had 2 other solid outfielders to play alongside him. He was never an untouchable or anything close. He was never a darling. He was simply a guy people were willing to live so that the team could spend money on actual players. I was actually one of his bigger supporters on the board, but I never envisioned an OF of Dubois, Hollandsworth, Burnitz and Patterson. Dubois was just a body to fill a spot. Had they gone after a real corner OF, perhaps they could have lived with Dubois numbers. As it turns out, he never even came close to fulfilling the rather small expectations people actually had for him.

[ThePenguin11]

 

I've seen three comparisons here. Can you guys let me know if you're seriously comparing Arod, the player people are saying may end up being one of the TOP 10 PLAYERS OF ALL TIME to Felix Pie...and Kenny Lofton, a 15 year vet with 2,400 hits and a career .300/.370 line...and Tyler Colvin with Tony Gwynn, one of baseballs greatest all-time pure hitters? Please tell me I completely missed the sarcasm. Please.

 

First, yeah, I think you missed the sarcasm.

 

Secondly, why can't prospects be compared to Hall of Famers? People with similar skill sets are always compared, as they should. Nobody is saying Pie is a lock for 2500 hits. Nobody is saying Colvin is a Hall of Famer. Just saying that both have the potential to be very good ML hitters. At one point, Lofton and Gwynn were being compared to other people. Nobody knew Gwynn would win several batting titles and be a 1st ballot HOF.

 

When trying to improve your team by trading prospects your expectations of said prospects need to be realistic. If you can gain an all-star caliber player for a guy who's proven next to nothing, and has - realisticaly very little chance of becoming a star - in order to make your team World Series competitive....then you do it. Anyone who thinks this team, as presently constituted, can beat the powers of the AL is diluted.

[RyCubsFan]

I think that Marmol could be an excellent starting pitcher. If Hill gets traded for Bedard, why not consider Carlos the 4th starter?

[rawaction]

 

I've seen three comparisons here. Can you guys let me know if you're seriously comparing Arod, the player people are saying may end up being one of the TOP 10 PLAYERS OF ALL TIME to Felix Pie...and Kenny Lofton, a 15 year vet with 2,400 hits and a career .300/.370 line...and Tyler Colvin with Tony Gwynn, one of baseballs greatest all-time pure hitters? Please tell me I completely missed the sarcasm. Please.

 

First, yeah, I think you missed the sarcasm.

 

Secondly, why can't prospects be compared to Hall of Famers? People with similar skill sets are always compared, as they should. Nobody is saying Pie is a lock for 2500 hits. Nobody is saying Colvin is a Hall of Famer. Just saying that both have the potential to be very good ML hitters. At one point, Lofton and Gwynn were being compared to other people. Nobody knew Gwynn would win several batting titles and be a 1st ballot HOF.

 

When trying to improve your team by trading prospects your expectations of said prospects need to be realistic. If you can gain an all-star caliber player for a guy who's proven next to nothing, and has - realisticaly very little chance of becoming a star - in order to make your team World Series competitive....then you do it. Anyone who thinks this team, as presently constituted, can beat the powers of the AL is diluted.

 

Well, now you're talking about a completely different subject. I have never disagreed with anything you posted.

[ThePenguin11]

Go through the list and for every Zambrano and Hill there are five Jason Dubois', five Hee Seop Choi's, five Corey Patterson's, five Ryan Harvey's, etc. I've been watching this board for years and seeing people say we can't possibly trade Dubois, Patterson, etc.

 

A) One Zambrano for every five Dubois is probably an excellenct ratio.

 

B) You could not have possibly seen people say we can't possibly trading Dubois. It just never happened. The revisionist history of Dubois has gotten out of control. Dubois was never a big time prospect that everybody loved. Dubois was a guy some people thought could be halfway decent if they had 2 other solid outfielders to play alongside him. He was never an untouchable or anything close. He was never a darling. He was simply a guy people were willing to live so that the team could spend money on actual players. I was actually one of his bigger supporters on the board, but I never envisioned an OF of Dubois, Hollandsworth, Burnitz and Patterson. Dubois was just a body to fill a spot. Had they gone after a real corner OF, perhaps they could have lived with Dubois numbers. As it turns out, he never even came close to fulfilling the rather small expectations people actually had for him.

 

Fine, I will give you DuBois, but there have been at least a dozen names people always wanted to keep that never panned out anyway. The odds of success are much more in your favor if you are the team dumping prospects for proven talent. Proven talent can always be turned into compensatory picks later to refill the farm system.

[ThePenguin11]

 

I've seen three comparisons here. Can you guys let me know if you're seriously comparing Arod, the player people are saying may end up being one of the TOP 10 PLAYERS OF ALL TIME to Felix Pie...and Kenny Lofton, a 15 year vet with 2,400 hits and a career .300/.370 line...and Tyler Colvin with Tony Gwynn, one of baseballs greatest all-time pure hitters? Please tell me I completely missed the sarcasm. Please.

 

First, yeah, I think you missed the sarcasm.

 

Secondly, why can't prospects be compared to Hall of Famers? People with similar skill sets are always compared, as they should. Nobody is saying Pie is a lock for 2500 hits. Nobody is saying Colvin is a Hall of Famer. Just saying that both have the potential to be very good ML hitters. At one point, Lofton and Gwynn were being compared to other people. Nobody knew Gwynn would win several batting titles and be a 1st ballot HOF.

 

When trying to improve your team by trading prospects your expectations of said prospects need to be realistic. If you can gain an all-star caliber player for a guy who's proven next to nothing, and has - realisticaly very little chance of becoming a star - in order to make your team World Series competitive....then you do it. Anyone who thinks this team, as presently constituted, can beat the powers of the AL is diluted.

 

Well, now you're talking about a completely different subject. I have never disagreed with anything you posted.

 

I know, I caught that. There were a couple of others mixed in with the thread that got me fired up.

[jersey cubs fan]

Fine, I will give you DuBois, but there have been at least a dozen names people always wanted to keep that never panned out anyway. The odds of success are much more in your favor if you are the team dumping prospects for proven talent. Proven talent can always be turned into compensatory picks later to refill the farm system.

 

I mostly agree. I'm not in love with any Cubs prospects, and don't consider any of them close to untouchable. I do believe you have to develop, and keep, some of your own players in order to maintain a quality roster over time. You can't always trade prospects for proven talent. But I'd have no problem with the Cubs trading any of these guys for legit production from a real position.

 

Garland for Karchner = bad

Choi for Lee = good

[Sammy Sofa]

but there have been at least a dozen names people always wanted to keep that never panned out anyway.

 

Please name at least a dozen. And I mean where most of the people here were raving that they were "untouchable."

Edited December 17, 2007 by Sammy Sofa

[nilodnayr]

I say do whatever it takes to get Bedard and Roberts and call it an offseason, Pitching staff and lineup then look really good..We don't need Roberts as much since the lineup is already looking good, but we definetley need to get another starter since the back of the rotation looks bad..If we have Z,Bedard,Lilly and Hill, I could care less who the number 5 is...If we have to trade Pie, who do we play in center then? Fukudome signed here because he wanted to play his natural position, So I don't see him going to CF right away...Would be nice if DeRosa of Theriot could play a good CF, then we don't need DeRo to sub and the lineup looks real good..

 

you are not getting bedard and roberts without trading hill

 

if we're going after the two id try to pry bedard away for some package that does not include rich hill, maybe marmol, pie and some random crap but i dont think that there is any chance that bid will win him. trading hill for bedard straight up is probably a net loss for the team.

One creative way to do it would to go out and use some of our spare parts to acquire a player the O's would really need. The Murton/Fox for Teahen was debunked, but there possibly could be something there. Same thing with Marshall for Hamilton (of course the Reds are a competitor). We've been linked to Gerald Laird in the past.

 

Just some ideas to put us over the top. Who knows, in MacPhail's eyes a Pie/Marmol deal might be better than a Votto/Bailey deal.

[UMFan83]

IF we can get Bedard without giving up Pie or Hill i'm all for it. Think they would bite on Murton, Marshall, Gallagher, and a 4th?

 

They can have Felix Patterson as far as I'm concerned. He needs to be traded before teams start figuring out that he's lost against major league pitching. He's supposed to be this burner on the paths and he steals bases at like a 55% clip. I don't think he's got much of a baseball IQ and I'm not keeping him around solely for defensive purposes.

 

Felix Pie first 177 AB:

.215/.270/.333

 

Alex Rodriguez first 184 AB:

.223/.270/.348

 

Boy, I bet the Mariners are glad that they didn't give up and trade him away after the first 184 AB.

 

what a [expletive] comparison

 

let's see.....Pie was a decent prospect who was 22. Rodriguez was the best prospect in the game, probably the best prospect in the history of the game -- even better than Griffey Jr, and was 18.

 

 

you cant compare them dont pretend you can jesus

 

Somehow I think my point went way over your head. I'm simply saying that over 180 ABs, there is absolutely no way you can say Felix Pie is a bust. I then found an example of a player who had similar numbers and obviously changed that around quickly. Felix obviously does not have the credentials that ARod did, nor am I even coming close to making that point. But Felix is not Ronny Cedeno or some other lightly regarded prospect either. He has consistantly been among the top prospects in baseball according to Baseball America. That alone should state that you shouldn't use his first 177 freaking ABs to determine how he is going to do the rest of his baseball career. Get it now??

 

Oh and I'm not Jesus but I appreciate the comparison.

[UMFan83]

Go through the list and for every Zambrano and Hill there are five Jason Dubois', five Hee Seop Choi's, five Corey Patterson's, five Ryan Harvey's, etc. I've been watching this board for years and seeing people say we can't possibly trade Dubois, Patterson, etc.

 

A) One Zambrano for every five Dubois is probably an excellenct ratio.

 

B) You could not have possibly seen people say we can't possibly trading Dubois. It just never happened. The revisionist history of Dubois has gotten out of control. Dubois was never a big time prospect that everybody loved. Dubois was a guy some people thought could be halfway decent if they had 2 other solid outfielders to play alongside him. He was never an untouchable or anything close. He was never a darling. He was simply a guy people were willing to live so that the team could spend money on actual players. I was actually one of his bigger supporters on the board, but I never envisioned an OF of Dubois, Hollandsworth, Burnitz and Patterson. Dubois was just a body to fill a spot. Had they gone after a real corner OF, perhaps they could have lived with Dubois numbers. As it turns out, he never even came close to fulfilling the rather small expectations people actually had for him.

 

Fine, I will give you DuBois, but there have been at least a dozen names people always wanted to keep that never panned out anyway. The odds of success are much more in your favor if you are the team dumping prospects for proven talent. Proven talent can always be turned into compensatory picks later to refill the farm system.

 

Well I agree with you there. If we still had the archives from 2003 you would spend hours laughing at people's thoughts of Choi, Bobby Hill, Patterson, etc. I can't remember for sure, but I think at least 35-40% of the posters on this board were completely against the DLee - Choi trade immediately after it occured. When Choi started out hot in 2004 and DLee not, people had their signatures filled with Choi statistical updates compared to Lee.

 

There has to be a fine line though between trading prospects and keeping them to actually use. Take the Red Sox for example. They spend spend spend. They buy a Matt Clement for way over market value and then don't even flinch when he pitches 20 games for them over 3 years. For every JD Drew they sign, they bring up a Kevin Youkilis. Look at their roster:

 

Pedroia - Homegrown

Youkilis - Homegrown

Papelbon - Homegrown

Ellsbury - Homegrown

Bucholtz - Homegrown

Lester - Homegrown

 

3 people in their everyday lineup plus 2-3 of their starters are homegrown. That's pretty good for a big market team. However at the same time, they have also traded top prospects like Freddie Sanchez and Hanley Ramirez to make additional improvements.

 

And its not just the Red Sox that are doing this. For every Bobby Abreu they trade for, they bring up a Robinson Cano/Melky Cabrera/Phil Hughes to mix in.

[Mephistopheles]

Somehow I think my point went way over your head. I'm simply saying that over 180 ABs, there is absolutely no way you can say Felix Pie is a bust. I then found an example of a player who had similar numbers and obviously changed that around quickly. Felix obviously does not have the credentials that ARod did, nor am I even coming close to making that point. But Felix is not Ronny Cedeno or some other lightly regarded prospect either. He has consistantly been among the top prospects in baseball according to Baseball America. That alone should state that you shouldn't use his first 177 freaking ABs to determine how he is going to do the rest of his baseball career. Get it now??

 

Oh and I'm not Jesus but I appreciate the comparison.

pie sucks, ronnys better