Cedeno

[abuck1220]

You do realize what kind of numbers Theriot was putting up in the minor leagues at age 22?

Was that when he was trying to be a switch hitter? As has been said a million times, those numbers don't mean anything because most of those at bats were as a left handed hitter, whereas he bats right handed.

 

and sucks at it.

[Abe Frohman]

I just don't understand how people can keep thinking that Theriot is anything near a starting-caliber player for a contending team.

 

Well, isn't that what he was in 2007?

[Backtobanks]

We can argue this point forever, the bottom line is unless the Cubs get a SS that Lou considers an upgrade to Theriot, Theriot is the starter at SS. The Cubs have said that they're looking for a lefty SS to sub for Theriot. I think most posters argree that Cedeno has a higher upside than Theriot, but it doesn't look like the Cubs are willing to give him a real shot at playing daily because of the reasons I stated earlier (contending, Pie, Soto).

[Tracer Bullet]

I just don't understand how people can keep thinking that Theriot is anything near a starting-caliber player for a contending team.

 

Well, isn't that what he was in 2007?

 

No. He started but he wasn't worthy of starting. He was terrible. Being the starter doesn't mean you should be.

 

Cedeno had no business starting for the Cubs in '06. He was terrible. He was really young and wasn't ready. But the Cubs had no one else and so he was out there almost every day. If every player was thrown into the majors at age 22, with their entire career determined solely on that season's performance, a lot of guys would be considered total failures. It never ceases to amaze me that a guy who was terrible in the majors is considered worthless whereas a guy who was bad in the minors at the same age and then bad in the majors when he was 27, is "starter caliber" to you (and others). Refusing to consider age when comparing performances at the major league level is ridiculous.

[Abe Frohman]

I don't know what the chances of Cedeno breaking out and winning the SS job. I'm not sure what to think of Cedeno's improvement in AAA last year. If you look at his numbers, they are almost exactly in line with his production in AAA from 2005, and he still had that terrible 2006 season. I don't know if that means we could expect a lousy 2008 should he start, but he really didn't significantly increase his BB's last year in AAA (30 in 327 plate appearances).

[jersey cubs fan]

I cannot understand the staying power of this blind allegiance to Ryan Theriot. Its' one thing to be in the middle of the season and being somewhat unaware of the facts about how terrible Theriot is. But it's December. Everybody has had plenty of opportunity to properly evaluate what Theriot did this past season, and what he's capable of doing in the future. To have that opportunity and still think he was, and is good is just absurd.

 

Ryan Theriot was terrible. He was one of the worst SS in all of baseball, and he has absolutely zero upside. He is what he is. That is to say, probably good enough to be a backup on most teams, definitely not good enough to start.

[CuseCubFan69]

I cannot understand the staying power of this blind allegiance to Ryan Theriot. Its' one thing to be in the middle of the season and being somewhat unaware of the facts about how terrible Theriot is. But it's December. Everybody has had plenty of opportunity to properly evaluate what Theriot did this past season, and what he's capable of doing in the future. To have that opportunity and still think he was, and is good is just absurd.

 

Ryan Theriot was terrible. He was one of the worst SS in all of baseball, and he has absolutely zero upside. He is what he is. That is to say, probably good enough to be a backup on most teams, definitely not good enough to start.

 

I'm hoping he's just talking him up so that teams think they're getting something special if he throws him in at the last minute in a trade. It seems to work for the Yanks.

[Tracer Bullet]

I don't know what the chances of Cedeno breaking out and winning the SS job. I'm not sure what to think of Cedeno's improvement in AAA last year. If you look at his numbers, they are almost exactly in line with his production in AAA from 2005, and he still had that terrible 2006 season. I don't know if that means we could expect a lousy 2008 should he start, but he really didn't significantly increase his BB's last year in AAA (30 in 327 plate appearances).

 

His OBP was 19 points higher (though he AVG was 4 points higher) and his SLG was also 19 points higher. Thus, his OPS jumped from .921 to .959. That's a pretty good increase, certainly not what I would consider insignificant.

 

If we don't acquire a better SS this offseason, giving the job to any in-house option other than Cedeno just doesn't make sense to me.

[SouthSideRyan]

We can argue this point forever, the bottom line is unless the Cubs get a SS that Lou considers an upgrade to Theriot, Theriot is the starter at SS. The Cubs have said that they're looking for a lefty SS to sub for Theriot. I think most posters argree that Cedeno has a higher upside than Theriot, but it doesn't look like the Cubs are willing to give him a real shot at playing daily because of the reasons I stated earlier (contending, Pie, Soto).

 

We should get lefties to play at every position. They'll never see it coming.

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

Cedeno doesn't bat LH, and doesn't play every position, so I don't see what value he has to this organization.

[Abe Frohman]

I cannot understand the staying power of this blind allegiance to Ryan Theriot. Its' one thing to be in the middle of the season and being somewhat unaware of the facts about how terrible Theriot is. But it's December. Everybody has had plenty of opportunity to properly evaluate what Theriot did this past season, and what he's capable of doing in the future. To have that opportunity and still think he was, and is good is just absurd.

 

I wouldn't call it blind allegiance, and I do realize that both the Cubs and Theriot can an need to improve. The point I am trying to make is that if the Cubs go into 2008 with Ryan Theriot and Ronny Cedeno as options for starting SS - I think it is obvious that Theriot is the starter. I am not thinking that Theriot or Cedeno will be the Cubs starting SS for an extended time, and I have no problem with Cedeno beating him out for the starting position. I just don't see it happening.

 

Ryan Theriot was terrible. He was one of the worst SS in all of baseball, and he has absolutely zero upside. He is what he is. That is to say, probably good enough to be a backup on most teams, definitely not good enough to start.

 

What do you realistically expect out of Theriot? I hoped he would do what he really has always done - get on base, score runs, steal bases, and be a situational hitter. Though his OB% was .326, the guy basically walked about as many times as he struck out. He isn't an easy out (most of the time). He hits behind runners, etc.

 

You say he was one of the worst SS in baseball, and I disagree. There were a lot of good SS in the National League, and Theriot was middle of the pack (8th with 80) in runs scored. He was 4th in the NL in SB for SS. The Cubs could definately improve at SS, and Theriot may be more effective playing off the bench and spot starting - but he's the best option the Cubs have right now.

 

If you are considering planning for the future with these two guys - consider age and go with Cedeno, and hope he doesn't kill you with his offensive/defensive play.

[abuck1220]

everyone always says theriot was a "tough out," but he was last on the team in p/pa. last. behind everyone. even koyie hill, even cedeno, even pie, even soriano. last.

[GoCubsGo1679625768]

Theriot is such a tough out because he just looks some damn gritty when he makes an out.

[jersey cubs fan]

everyone always says theriot was a "tough out," but he was last on the team in p/pa. last. behind everyone. even koyie hill, even cedeno, even pie, even soriano. last.

 

Well, that and the fact that he made a lot of outs, which pretty much contradicts the whole concept of being a tough out.

 

 

I'm not sure why people think it's acceptable that Theriot isn't any good just because every realistic expectation is for him to not be good. Yes, he's probably gotten the most out of his abilities. Good for him. That still leaves you with a bad baseball player that shouldn't be the starting shortstop of the Chicago Cubs.

[abuck1220]

it's funny how everyone perceives him to be something he's not. a friend of mine told me he should bat leadoff because he walks a lot (lowest OBP in the lineup) and because he takes a lot of pitches (fewest p/pa on the team).

[jersey cubs fan]

it's funny how everyone perceives him to be something he's not. a friend of mine told me he should bat leadoff because he walks a lot (lowest OBP in the lineup) and because he takes a lot of pitches (fewest p/pa on the team).

 

Next thing you're going to tell me he's not even really white.

[CuseCubFan69]

it's funny how everyone perceives him to be something he's not. a friend of mine told me he should bat leadoff because he walks a lot (lowest OBP in the lineup) and because he takes a lot of pitches (fewest p/pa on the team).

 

If he hits 200 and has a 330 OBP, yeah, he walks a lot.

[Burtonbell]

it's funny how everyone perceives him to be something he's not. a friend of mine told me he should bat leadoff because he walks a lot (lowest OBP in the lineup) and because he takes a lot of pitches (fewest p/pa on the team).

 

Next thing you're going to tell me he's not even really white.

 

Actually, things would be alot easier if he were Dominican and his last name was Tejada.

[jersey cubs fan]

it's funny how everyone perceives him to be something he's not. a friend of mine told me he should bat leadoff because he walks a lot (lowest OBP in the lineup) and because he takes a lot of pitches (fewest p/pa on the team).

 

If he hits 200 and has a 330 OBP, yeah, he walks a lot.

 

Well yes, an IsoD of 130 is also significantly higher than the 060 he had this year. He walks as frequently as Ramirez, whom nobody confuses with patience.

[treebird]

I cannot understand the staying power of this blind allegiance to Ryan Theriot. Its' one thing to be in the middle of the season and being somewhat unaware of the facts about how terrible Theriot is. But it's December. Everybody has had plenty of opportunity to properly evaluate what Theriot did this past season, and what he's capable of doing in the future. To have that opportunity and still think he was, and is good is just absurd.

 

I wouldn't call it blind allegiance, and I do realize that both the Cubs and Theriot can an need to improve. The point I am trying to make is that if the Cubs go into 2008 with Ryan Theriot and Ronny Cedeno as options for starting SS - I think it is obvious that Theriot is the starter. I am not thinking that Theriot or Cedeno will be the Cubs starting SS for an extended time, and I have no problem with Cedeno beating him out for the starting position. I just don't see it happening.

 

Ryan Theriot was terrible. He was one of the worst SS in all of baseball, and he has absolutely zero upside. He is what he is. That is to say, probably good enough to be a backup on most teams, definitely not good enough to start.

 

What do you realistically expect out of Theriot? I hoped he would do what he really has always done - get on base, score runs, steal bases, and be a situational hitter. Though his OB% was .326, the guy basically walked about as many times as he struck out. He isn't an easy out (most of the time). He hits behind runners, etc.

 

You say he was one of the worst SS in baseball, and I disagree. There were a lot of good SS in the National League, and Theriot was middle of the pack (8th with 80) in runs scored. He was 4th in the NL in SB for SS. The Cubs could definately improve at SS, and Theriot may be more effective playing off the bench and spot starting - but he's the best option the Cubs have right now.

 

If you are considering planning for the future with these two guys - consider age and go with Cedeno, and hope he doesn't kill you with his offensive/defensive play.

 

this is my new favorite statistic of all time. 4th in the league in steals among shortstops. i take back all the bad things i ever said about ryan.

[Rob]

That's a much more interesting stat than his below .240 EqA.

 

I wont disagree that Theriot did all we could ever ask of him. The problem is that we can't realistically ask him to do much of anything. He's not a good ballplayer, no matter how much gritty intangibility you want to pretend he adds.

[Tracer Bullet]

I cannot understand the staying power of this blind allegiance to Ryan Theriot. Its' one thing to be in the middle of the season and being somewhat unaware of the facts about how terrible Theriot is. But it's December. Everybody has had plenty of opportunity to properly evaluate what Theriot did this past season, and what he's capable of doing in the future. To have that opportunity and still think he was, and is good is just absurd.

 

I wouldn't call it blind allegiance, and I do realize that both the Cubs and Theriot can an need to improve. The point I am trying to make is that if the Cubs go into 2008 with Ryan Theriot and Ronny Cedeno as options for starting SS - I think it is obvious that Theriot is the starter. I am not thinking that Theriot or Cedeno will be the Cubs starting SS for an extended time, and I have no problem with Cedeno beating him out for the starting position. I just don't see it happening.

 

Ryan Theriot was terrible. He was one of the worst SS in all of baseball, and he has absolutely zero upside. He is what he is. That is to say, probably good enough to be a backup on most teams, definitely not good enough to start.

 

What do you realistically expect out of Theriot? I hoped he would do what he really has always done - get on base, score runs, steal bases, and be a situational hitter. Though his OB% was .326, the guy basically walked about as many times as he struck out. He isn't an easy out (most of the time). He hits behind runners, etc.

 

You say he was one of the worst SS in baseball, and I disagree. There were a lot of good SS in the National League, and Theriot was middle of the pack (8th with 80) in runs scored. He was 4th in the NL in SB for SS. The Cubs could definately improve at SS, and Theriot may be more effective playing off the bench and spot starting - but he's the best option the Cubs have right now.

 

If you are considering planning for the future with these two guys - consider age and go with Cedeno, and hope he doesn't kill you with his offensive/defensive play.

 

this is my new favorite statistic of all time. 4th in the league in steals among shortstops. i take back all the bad things i ever said about ryan.

 

You can't ignore the fact that he was 8th among NL SS's in runs. He hit 2nd and scored 80 runs. This means he should be the starter.

[Guest]

Since some of you are concerned about how much of an improvement Ronny has made from his 2005 AAA numbers to his 2007 AAA numbers, why not check out his VWL numbers? Ronny has a .902 OPS this year, as opposed to his .608 regular season OPS last year and .754 regular season and playoff OPS. Seems like an improvement.

[tinkerstoeverstochance]

If memory serves, players typically lose about 18% of their offensive value jumping up one league.

 

Cedeno put up a line of .359/.422/.537 in AAA this year.

 

That'd be the equivalent of about a .787 OPS. Even if you want to adjust his line down further because the PCL plays as a hitters league, you're stuck with the unavoidable fact that Cedeno has a much more lively bat than Theriot has. Then again, it doesn't take much to beat a .672 OPS.

 

Keep in mind, Theriot has reached his ceiling. He might have a single fluke year where he could put up a .750 OPS in 450 AB or so, but he's not gonna top .700 too often. While Cedeno might revert back into his 2006 form (though highly unlikely, given two extra years of development time meaning so much for players that young), the risk is acceptible, as he's much more likely to eclipse Theriot's production by a similar margin.

 

I just don't understand how people can keep thinking that Theriot is anything near a starting-caliber player for a contending team. He should have to fight for a starting job on the White Sox.

 

I agree,and I fixed it

[frostwyrm]

Theriot was middle of the pack (8th with 80) in runs scored. He was 4th in the NL in SB for SS

 

This is as clear an example I've ever seen of "damning with faint praise."