Cedeno

[larhur]

I know this has probably been discussed before but here is my two cents.

Ronnie has hit well everywhere he has been except the bigs, And there is nothing that indicates he can't hit here, I know he has had several chances with the big club but pressure to succeed and letting down his team mates seem to get ahead of his talent. I know he is a throw-in in most trade proposals but he just might be our best chance to have a big league SS and that way Theriot could be a sub. Cedeno has better power potential, Is just as fast, has a better arm, covers a lot of ground and has matured more, (aged more).

Lets not throw him away, just give him another shot at SS.

[Blizzau]

I know this has probably been discussed before but here is my two cents.

Ronnie has hit well everywhere he has been except the bigs, And there is nothing that indicates he can't hit here, I know he has had several chances with the big club but pressure to succeed and letting down his team mates seem to get ahead of his talent.

 

Doesn't the fact that "he has had several chances with the big club" and blown those chances indicate that Ronnie cannot, indeed, hit in the Major Leagues? Your post seems self-contradictory.

 

And for what it's worth, I believe he should only be a throw in when it comes to trades. He's had his chance, and it's time for someone else to apply for the SS opening.

[Abe Frohman]

I know it is not the popular position on this board, but Theriot played SS for the Cubs because he was the best the Cubs had. Theriot really had a nice full first season, and if it weren't for his terrible September maybe he'd be getting some of the respect he deserves around here.

 

I think Ronnie has a good chance to be a solid ML SS, but until he proves it in MLB - he is just too young or undisciplined at the plate. He has much better tools than Theriot defensively, but Theriot was still a better SS than Cedeno has ever been. Theriot scored runs, stole bases, and showed that he could be a spark. It's his job to lose, unless a better SS is acquired via trade.

[imb]

I think he should definitely be the SS for the Cobs.

[Guest]

I know it is not the popular position on this board, but Theriot played SS for the Cubs because he was the best the Cubs had. Theriot really had a nice full first season, and if it weren't for his terrible September maybe he'd be getting some of the respect he deserves around here.

 

I think Ronnie has a good chance to be a solid ML SS, but until he proves it in MLB - he is just too young or undisciplined at the plate. He has much better tools than Theriot defensively, but Theriot was still a better SS than Cedeno has ever been. Theriot scored runs, stole bases, and showed that he could be a spark. It's his job to lose, unless a better SS is acquired via trade.

 

And his terrible June. And his below average April, May and August. Theriot had one very good month - a .920 OPS July. The he had 2 horrible months and 3 below average months.

[Abe Frohman]

And his terrible June. And his below average April, May and August. Theriot had one very good month - a .920 OPS July. The he had 2 horrible months and 3 below average months.

 

Well, compared to Ronnie Cedeno's 2006 - Theriot was outstanding.

 

.299/.347 in April is below average? June/September were bad.

[Guest]

And his terrible June. And his below average April, May and August. Theriot had one very good month - a .920 OPS July. The he had 2 horrible months and 3 below average months.

 

Well, compared to Ronnie Cedeno's 2006 - Theriot was outstanding.

 

.299/.347 in April is below average? June/September were bad.

 

He had a .328 SLG in April and a .675 OPS.

[Abe Frohman]

And his terrible June. And his below average April, May and August. Theriot had one very good month - a .920 OPS July. The he had 2 horrible months and 3 below average months.

 

Well, compared to Ronnie Cedeno's 2006 - Theriot was outstanding.

 

.299/.347 in April is below average? June/September were bad.

 

He had a .328 SLG in April and a .675 OPS.

 

Are you expecting power numbers out of him? Theriot is not going to have a very high SLG percentage, but he will score runs. We are comparing Theriot to Cedeno here, and I invite you to take a look at Cedeno's splits from his first year (2006). It ain't pretty.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=cedenro02&year=2006

 

Here are the first full seasons for each guy. Who do you think has more potential?

 

Cedeno (2006) 151 534 51 131 18 7 6 41 8 8 17 109 .245 .271 .339

Theriot (2007) 148 537 80 143 30 2 3 45 28 4 49 50 .266 .326 .346

[Guest]

I was comparing Theriot to the other SS in the majors.

[Guest]

And his terrible June. And his below average April, May and August. Theriot had one very good month - a .920 OPS July. The he had 2 horrible months and 3 below average months.

 

Well, compared to Ronnie Cedeno's 2006 - Theriot was outstanding.

 

.299/.347 in April is below average? June/September were bad.

 

He had a .328 SLG in April and a .675 OPS.

 

Are you expecting power numbers out of him? Theriot is not going to have a very high SLG percentage, but he will score runs. We are comparing Theriot to Cedeno here, and I invite you to take a look at Cedeno's splits from his first year (2006). It ain't pretty.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=cedenro02&year=2006

 

Here are the first full seasons for each guy. Who do you think has more potential?

 

Cedeno (2006) 151 534 51 131 18 7 6 41 8 8 17 109 .245 .271 .339

Theriot (2007) 148 537 80 143 30 2 3 45 28 4 49 50 .266 .326 .346

 

Cedeno was 23 that year while Theriot was 27 last year. At 23 Theriot was in A and AA ball. Cedeno has more room to improve and has more potential. That's not to say that he will improve, just that he could. Theriot is what he is and isn't likely to improve much.

[Abe Frohman]

Here are the first full seasons for each guy. Who do you think has more potential?

 

Cedeno (2006) 151 534 51 131 18 7 6 41 8 8 17 109 .245 .271 .339

Theriot (2007) 148 537 80 143 30 2 3 45 28 4 49 50 .266 .326 .346

 

Cedeno was 23 that year while Theriot was 27 last year. At 23 Theriot was in A and AA ball. Cedeno has more room to improve and has more potential. That's not to say that he will improve' date=' just that he could. Theriot is what he is and isn't likely to improve much.[/quote']

 

So what? Theriot played college baseball while Cedeno jumped into professional ball. Are either guys going to be fixtures at SS for the Cubs the next 10 years? Personally, I could care less how old Cedeno is, compared to Theriot. One guy has a clue at the plate, the other doesn't. I realize Cedeno is young. He's too raw. I'll take production over potential any day.

[Guest]

Here are the first full seasons for each guy. Who do you think has more potential?

 

Cedeno (2006) 151 534 51 131 18 7 6 41 8 8 17 109 .245 .271 .339

Theriot (2007) 148 537 80 143 30 2 3 45 28 4 49 50 .266 .326 .346

 

Cedeno was 23 that year while Theriot was 27 last year. At 23 Theriot was in A and AA ball. Cedeno has more room to improve and has more potential. That's not to say that he will improve' date=' just that he could. Theriot is what he is and isn't likely to improve much.[/quote']

 

So what? Theriot played college baseball while Cedeno jumped into professional ball. Are either guys going to be fixtures at SS for the Cubs the next 10 years? Personally, I could care less how old Cedeno is, compared to Theriot. One guy has a clue at the plate, the other doesn't. I realize Cedeno is young. He's too raw. I'll take production over potential any day.

 

If you do this you're not going to be able to properly evaluate the situation. You HAVE to factor age into the equation and you can't ignore it. Age matters.

[Abe Frohman]

If the Cubs have two options at SS in 2008 - Ryan Theriot and Ronnie Cedeno - age has absolutely no relevance to the Cubs winning baseball games. Ryan Theriot is the better player right now.

 

I would be delighted to see Ronny beat him out, because that would mean he was the better player and actually improved his approach at the plate. It was painful watching Cedeno hit in 2006. It was easy to see that he was overmatched and totally unconfident.

[Backtobanks]

The difference between Theriot and Cedeno can be summed up in one word.....consistency. I think Cedeno has a higher ceiling than Theriot, but the Cubs can't afford to put up with Cedeno's growing pains (offensively, defensively, and mentally) while they're trying to contend. I think Cedeno is in the same boat as Murton and Marshall in that I think they will end up being successful, just not with the Cubs because Lou doesn't have confidence in them to do the job. Also, the Cubs already are committed to having Pie and Soto in the starting lineup and having to deal with their growing pains.

[Abe Frohman]

I'm real excited to see what Soto can do, offensively and defensively. I think it's going to be a fun season in 2008.

[SouthSideRyan]

Ronny is the Cubs best option at SS for '08. The Cubs will trade him for this year's Stephen Randolph.

 

Ronny has not had several chances. He had '06. He sucked beyond all suck. The point in bringing age into the discussion, is that if you put Ryan Theriot out there for a full season at the age of 22, he would've sucked even worse. To throw Ronny away because of '06 is foolish.

[Keener98]

The difference between Theriot and Cedeno can be summed up in one word.....consistency. I think Cedeno has a higher ceiling than Theriot, but the Cubs can't afford to put up with Cedeno's growing pains (offensively, defensively, and mentally) while they're trying to contend. I think Cedeno is in the same boat as Murton and Marshall in that I think they will end up being successful, just not with the Cubs because Lou doesn't have confidence in them to do the job. Also, the Cubs already are committed to having Pie and Soto in the starting lineup and having to deal with their growing pains.

 

They cant afford to put up with Theriots crappyness either.

[Abe Frohman]

Ronny is the Cubs best option at SS for '08. The Cubs will trade him for this year's Stephen Randolph.

 

Statistics and reality disagree with that statement. Ronny MAY be better than Theriot, but he is going to have to earn it with his play on the field. There is no doubt that Cedeno is capable of being an exciting force offensively. He showed it briefly in his career and in AAA last season. However, he is going to have to have a strong showing in spring training, and carry it on from day 1 of the 2008 season. I hope he can do it because he has better speed, defensive capabilities, and power.

 

I just think that Theriot brings more to the table than his statistics show.

 

Ronny has not had several chances. He had '06. He sucked beyond all suck. The point in bringing age into the discussion, is that if you put Ryan Theriot out there for a full season at the age of 22, he would've sucked even worse. To throw Ronny away because of '06 is foolish.

 

Ronny HAS had several chances, but that sure doesn't mean he won't get more. In his defense, I think Baker should have handled him in a different manner in 2006. Gene Clines obviously didn't help him much either. Theriot, on the other hand, wasn't really given anything. He won the job with his performance. I don't think trading Cedeno is a wise move unless it involves getting a much better SS than the Cubs have now.

 

Arguing that Theriot would have sucked worse than Cedeno had he played for the Cubs when he was 22 is kind of redundant since it never happened and obviously never will. It's like comparing apples to oranges. I think Theriot would not have sucked worse, because he and Ronny are very different hitters. Theriot is more patient and polished, and he was that way when he was younger than 22. I know it has been mentioned before, but earlier in Theriot's MiL career, he unsuccessfully dabbled with switch-hitting - and that is worth consideration. He's a better baserunner than Cedeno and always has been.

 

The Cubs did not have stability at SS going into 2007, but Theriot did a fine job ending that problem - especially for a first year player. If the Cubs don't upgrade at SS, I think we will be OK in 2008 with Theriot and Cedeno. Granted we land the impact bat in RF/CF.

[Keener98]

You do realize what kind of numbers Theriot was putting up in the minor leagues at age 22?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

stuff and whatnot

would your feelings for Theriot differ had he not gone to LSU?

[Abe Frohman]

stuff and whatnot

would your feelings for Theriot differ had he not gone to LSU?

 

No. Am I saying the same things about Fontenot? Shane Youman? I am a fan of Brad Hawpe, though (except when he's playing the Cubs). I do like to follow ex-LSU players, but I don't think that has anything to do with my opinion on Theriot.

[Mizzou]

You do realize what kind of numbers Theriot was putting up in the minor leagues at age 22?

Was that when he was trying to be a switch hitter? As has been said a million times, those numbers don't mean anything because most of those at bats were as a left handed hitter, whereas he bats right handed.

[imb]

all this stupid arguing is totally missing the point.

 

THIS IS THE COBS GUY

 

he's gracing us with his presence again.

[treebird]

all this stupid arguing is totally missing the point.

 

THIS IS THE COBS GUY

 

he's gracing us with his presence again.

 

holy god you're not kidding

 

this is amazing

[Rob]

If memory serves, players typically lose about 18% of their offensive value jumping up one league.

 

Cedeno put up a line of .359/.422/.537 in AAA this year.

 

That'd be the equivalent of about a .787 OPS. Even if you want to adjust his line down further because the PCL plays as a hitters league, you're stuck with the unavoidable fact that Cedeno has a much more lively bat than Theriot has. Then again, it doesn't take much to beat a .672 OPS.

 

Keep in mind, Theriot has reached his ceiling. He might have a single fluke year where he could put up a .750 OPS in 450 AB or so, but he's not gonna top .700 too often. While Cedeno might revert back into his 2006 form (though highly unlikely, given two extra years of development time meaning so much for players that young), the risk is acceptible, as he's much more likely to eclipse Theriot's production by a similar margin.

 

I just don't understand how people can keep thinking that Theriot is anything near a starting-caliber player for a contending team. He should have to fight for a starting job on the Royals.