MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[UBlink]

No, I'd rather him walk away.

 

What's the advantage to walking away versus leaving his offer on the table. Or, alternatively, suppose Hendry does walk away and 2 weeks or 2 months from now the O's call up and say we'll take it. Assuming nothing significant has changed (Roberts hasn't broken a leg or one of the Cubs pieces is looking like ROY) is Hendry supposed to say sorry, you had your chance, I know it's a good deal for the Cubs but you missed your chance?

[RynoHawk23]

I can tell that many of you really aren't that old, and really have not suffered or shared the great GREAT exhiliration that comes with living the Cubs fan life. Many of you have probably only heard of 1969(me too), 1984 and 1989, and didn't actually live through it. Some of you might not even come close to appreciating how sweet and bittersweet 2003 really was (Do you realize how awful it was to be a Cubs fan from 1990-2002? 1998 was great, but team wise just a tease). For me 2007 wasn't that great. No one had a great year, the team really was crap until June, in general it was winning a division that was pretty blah and it all ended with a big flop that we could see coming.

 

I don't have a bunch of stats to throw at you. I don't have a bunch of strong opinions about Hendry or where Soriano should bat. But I do know one thing, I want to win. I want to win now. I don't want to go into the season hoping to fill holes by the trade deadline and seeing how we are doing in June to decide.

 

So when you say you would "be upset" or "Hendry should walk away" about trading 4 players that MIGHT help us in 2-3 years down the road for a proven all-star calliber professional player in the vein of a Derrek Lee, just shows me that you don't get it yet. I know the mindset, you want our own players coming up and building a "Cubs Dynasty." You want them to be the guys that you knew they were going to be great back in the day.

 

That's not what happens though, the most likely scenario is that all four of those guys aren't going to make an impact, and hell they might not even make it. (Example - every one flames Hendry for the Pierre trade - but what do the Marlins really have to show for that trade? Sergio Mitre?!?!) So to be able to add a winning player, a player that can shape our team in a way that is only beneficial, and a player that clearly gives us the ability to realistically challenge for the NL pennant - I don't know how ANY of you can say no. It would be great if we could build a dynasty of our own prospects. But that is a once in a lifetime kind of thing. We have the team built to win now, win this year. If we can add Roberts, and THEN take our chances of adding more at the trade deadline, then we are acting like the winner we want to be.

 

Flame away.

[Sammy Sofa]

There is zero about Brian Roberts that is "once in a lifetime," as an individual or as part of a team.

[17 Seconds]

So when you say you would "be upset" or "Hendry should walk away" about trading 4 players that MIGHT help us in 2-3 years down the road for a proven all-star calliber professional player in the vein of a Derrek Lee, just shows me that you don't get it yet. I know the mindset, you want our own players coming up and building a "Cubs Dynasty." You want them to be the guys that you knew they were going to be great back in the day.

 

As far as value goes, it doesn't even matter if those prospects end up turning into good players. They all have value right NOW. We only have a certain amount of tradeable assets. Just because they might no turn out to be good doesn't mean it's okay to trade them with reckless abandon. That's irresponsible. Like I said, we have greater needs. Those players should be used to fill those nees, not for an upgrade at a position that doesn't need upgrading.

 

You say that just because the 3 pitchers traded for Pierre haven't turned into anything good that means the Pierre trade wasn't a good one, which is not true at all. That was still a horrible trade because at the time we traded them, those 3 guys still had value, value that should have been used responsibly. Instead we threw them away for nothing. Even if those 3 pitchers retire in 2 years, that still was a bad trade because they had value at the time.

 

The reason I'm against the trade isn't because I want them on our team in the future. It's because I want them to be used for holes that we acually need to fill.

[17 Seconds]

No, I'd rather him walk away.

 

What's the advantage to walking away versus leaving his offer on the table. Or, alternatively, suppose Hendry does walk away and 2 weeks or 2 months from now the O's call up and say we'll take it. Assuming nothing significant has changed (Roberts hasn't broken a leg or one of the Cubs pieces is looking like ROY) is Hendry supposed to say sorry, you had your chance, I know it's a good deal for the Cubs but you missed your chance?

 

All indications are that they're still negotiating.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

From The Baltimore Sun

 

The Cubs have offered a four-player package that includes pitching prospects Sean Gallagher and Donald Veal and infielder Ronny Cedeno. Jose Ceda, the Cubs' top pitching prospect, has also been discussed as the potential fourth player.

 

 

Roberts isn't worth all that.

[Sammy Sofa]

From The Baltimore Sun

 

The Cubs have offered a four-player package that includes pitching prospects Sean Gallagher and Donald Veal and infielder Ronny Cedeno. Jose Ceda, the Cubs' top pitching prospect, has also been discussed as the potential fourth player.

 

 

Roberts isn't worth all that.

 

Agreed. Throwing in a 3rd highly rated pitching prospect is ridiculous. Cedeno and a combo of 2 of the other 3 is aready more than he's worth.

[David]

There is zero about Brian Roberts that is "once in a lifetime," as an individual or as part of a team.

 

I believe "once in a lifetime" was in reference to the possibility of actually building a dynasty from the ground up through your own farm system. But I could be wrong. It might just be poorly worded.

Edited March 14, 2008 by David

[RynoHawk23]

There is zero about Brian Roberts that is "once in a lifetime," as an individual or as part of a team.

 

You have completely missed the point of my post.

 

You say that just because the 3 pitchers traded for Pierre haven't turned into anything good that means the Pierre trade wasn't a good one, which is not true at all. That was still a horrible trade because at the time we traded them, those 3 guys still had value, value that should have been used responsibly. Instead we threw them away for nothing. Even if those 3 pitchers retire in 2 years, that still was a bad trade because they had value at the time.

 

That's a fair point of view. I can accept that. But my opinion is that Roberts is worth the risk. I don't think its reckless abandon - and I'm not advocating that. Leadoff may not be a position, but it is a need for us. Roberts would reshape our lineup in a way that makes sense no matter where Lou puts Soriano/Roberts/Fukudome. Making DeRosa a super-sub improves our bench and give us security against inevitable injuries. Let's say Ramirez pulls a hammy hustling - DeRosa has to play third. Now we have Fontenot at 2b? Does that give you confidence to keep winning? Or do we plug in DeRosa at 3b and have Roberts at 2b - and probably don't skip a beat.

 

I just don't see the downside in making it happen to win now. I know SS and CF are more pressing needs. But Roberts is another solution to the problem of a deficiency in the team to contend for the pennant. They can contend for the division as is. Don't you want more than that? You should. And if Roberts isn't the answer - who is?

[Sammy Sofa]

They can contend for the division as is. Don't you want more than that? You should. And if Roberts isn't the answer - who is?

 

I understood exactly what you said, and yes, everyone obviously wants more than to just contend in this crappy division...but at the same time, basic analysis shows that at the very least the Cubs should do that, so why do they need to shell out so much for someone like Roberts when the trade deadline is still so far away and so many other players could be become available in that time?

[RynoHawk23]

The same could be said for more suitors becoming available for Roberts. Then the price may be even higher.

 

I think I am asking for the same thing you are - only more. I want Roberts plus whoever becomes available, and we do have the resources to make those things happen. If the trade goes through somewhat close to as rumored - Gallagher, Cedeno, EPatt and Ceda. We still have resources like Marshall, Murton, Marquis, and Veal to acquire the players that might become available. Roberts is available now, and is a solution to our needs in my opinion. I don't think you let that slip away.

 

Just my two cents. Overall, I just want a verdict one way or the other. I hope it happens, but will understand if it doesn't.

[Guancous]

Am I the only one who sees Lou batting Theriot leadoff as a threat to Hendry? I'm sure everyone in the organization is aware that is a bad idea. His at bats could potentially eclipse his OPS (650 or so).

 

Baseball Prospectus says that Roberts would net the Cubs 3 additional wins. I think it's worth 3 players to better our odds of a boring September. We all love Gallagher but a soft-tosser with strong command is no given of becoming an All-Star. Cedeno is no given to become a major league regular with his poor baseball fundamentals. Veal or Ceda could become dominant players. They could also turn into the next Mike Harkey.

 

I would make this trade because it makes the end of our bench better. DeRosa would be a GREAT pinch hitter and bench player. He can easily eclipse 400 at bats with some of the fragile pieces of our roster. It will also keep a fringe Dusty Baker type player off the active roster.

 

I would prefer a shortstop instead of a 2B. The question is: who is available? If we don't get Roberts, who is an impact player that we can trade for in April?

[CubColtPacer]

I wouldn't give them all 3 pitching prospects. That's too much potential combined.

 

I would give them Gallagher, Cedeno, Veal, and Epatt though. Epatt's value is only going to go down as the year goes along because of his age and position questions, and he really only has value to a team like the Orioles who can let him play at 2B at the majors for a year or two and see if he can work his issues out.

 

I don't personally think Veal will put it together this year, so he will probably have lower value then he does right now. That's just my opinion on him though, not compared to Patterson where I think it's very reasonable to expect the drop in value.

 

Gallagher will likely have around the same value. I expect him to pitch well in AAA, and maybe get a major league start or two. I don't believe anything besides him coming up and playing well in the major leagues for 5+ starts is going to inflate his value at this point.

 

Cedeno is a complete tossup. He could be starting for the Cubs and doing well and having great value (in which case the Cubs wouldn't want to give him up), or his value could be almost nil by the deadline.

 

I'd do the deal now because I don't think the pieces will be worth as much as a whole later with the way the Cubs will use them, and so I'd rather get the best deal I can with them now. Roberts is probably around a 3 win upgrade overall, and that could be significant.

[Guancous]

I wouldn't give them all 3 pitching prospects. That's too much potential combined.

 

I would give them Gallagher, Cedeno, Veal, and Epatt though. Epatt's value is only going to go down as the year goes along because of his age and position questions, and he really only has value to a team like the Orioles who can let him play at 2B at the majors for a year or two and see if he can work his issues out.

 

I don't personally think Veal will put it together this year, so he will probably have lower value then he does right now. That's just my opinion on him though, not compared to Patterson where I think it's very reasonable to expect the drop in value.

 

Gallagher will likely have around the same value. I expect him to pitch well in AAA, and maybe get a major league start or two. I don't believe anything besides him coming up and playing well in the major leagues for 5+ starts is going to inflate his value at this point.

 

Cedeno is a complete tossup. He could be starting for the Cubs and doing well and having great value (in which case the Cubs wouldn't want to give him up), or his value could be almost nil by the deadline.

 

I'd do the deal now because I don't think the pieces will be worth as much as a whole later with the way the Cubs will use them, and so I'd rather get the best deal I can with them now. Roberts is probably around a 3 win upgrade overall, and that could be significant.

 

Precisely. I'd imagine 3 wins is roughly the difference between Derrek Lee and Hee Seop Choi. It's like how everyone devalues defense except that it saves your starting pitchers. By extension, that taxes your bullpen less and means that you're not throwing Andy Pratt out there during the dog days of summer.

 

When was the last time a Cubs team had a good bench? I'm not even asking for a great bench but a good one. I'm 28 and I can't say I've ever seen it.

[hawkeyecub]

From The Baltimore Sun

 

The Cubs have offered a four-player package that includes pitching prospects Sean Gallagher and Donald Veal and infielder Ronny Cedeno. Jose Ceda, the Cubs' top pitching prospect, has also been discussed as the potential fourth player.

 

I would take that deal. Gallagher and Cedeno are likely going to have to go in this deal which is fair. Veal? Meh, sure. If it then comes down to keeping Ceda or landing Roberts, I'll take Roberts.

 

I think it's relatively fair.

[Dallas Green]

I see where both sides are coming from. You never want to overpay, but sometimes it's the price of poker. The Cubs chips are in to win this year. Look, everyone stands to gain from the Cubs at least winning the pennant. Crane Kenney can say he oversaw the team to success after the stuffy trib bosses were gone. He indicated Zell gives him more lattitiude and I believe him. Hendry would get his job security, Piniella may only want to manage out this contract, and he wants to win now. Even Zell, this team may fetch another 100 mil with a ring or pennant. They (Cubs) are thinking now. Everything you see from the added seats, etc. is all about increasing payroll to win now and sell this MF for as much as possible with everyone riding off into the sunset, movie and all. So don't be suprised if the Cubs pay alot for Roberts and trade for Crisp, becasue Lou doesn't trust Pie with CF with a young Soto already behind the plate. If and when we do end up with B Rob and Coco, we will be right up there with the Mets to contend for a pennant, especially after we make a deadline deal for another starter!

[SABR Gamer]

I see where both sides are coming from. You never want to overpay, but sometimes it's the price of poker. The Cubs chips are in to win this year. Look, everyone stands to gain from the Cubs at least winning the pennant. Crane Kenney can say he oversaw the team to success after the stuffy trib bosses were gone. He indicated Zell gives him more lattitiude and I believe him. Hendry would get his job security, Piniella may only want to manage out this contract, and he wants to win now. Even Zell, this team may fetch another 100 mil with a ring or pennant. They (Cubs) are thinking now. Everything you see from the added seats, etc. is all about increasing payroll to win now and sell this MF for as much as possible with everyone riding off into the sunset, movie and all. So don't be suprised if the Cubs pay alot for Roberts and trade for Crisp, becasue Lou doesn't trust Pie with CF with a young Soto already behind the plate. If and when we do end up with B Rob and Coco, we will be right up there with the Mets to contend for a pennant, especially after we make a deadline deal for another starter!

 

Pie is better than Coco.

[nolanwood]

I can tell that many of you really aren't that old, and really have not suffered or shared the great GREAT exhiliration that comes with living the Cubs fan life. Many of you have probably only heard of 1969(me too), 1984 and 1989, and didn't actually live through it. Some of you might not even come close to appreciating how sweet and bittersweet 2003 really was (Do you realize how awful it was to be a Cubs fan from 1990-2002? 1998 was great, but team wise just a tease). For me 2007 wasn't that great. No one had a great year, the team really was crap until June, in general it was winning a division that was pretty blah and it all ended with a big flop that we could see coming.

 

I don't have a bunch of stats to throw at you. I don't have a bunch of strong opinions about Hendry or where Soriano should bat. But I do know one thing, I want to win. I want to win now. I don't want to go into the season hoping to fill holes by the trade deadline and seeing how we are doing in June to decide.

 

So when you say you would "be upset" or "Hendry should walk away" about trading 4 players that MIGHT help us in 2-3 years down the road for a proven all-star calliber professional player in the vein of a Derrek Lee, just shows me that you don't get it yet. I know the mindset, you want our own players coming up and building a "Cubs Dynasty." You want them to be the guys that you knew they were going to be great back in the day.

 

That's not what happens though, the most likely scenario is that all four of those guys aren't going to make an impact, and hell they might not even make it. (Example - every one flames Hendry for the Pierre trade - but what do the Marlins really have to show for that trade? Sergio Mitre?!?!) So to be able to add a winning player, a player that can shape our team in a way that is only beneficial, and a player that clearly gives us the ability to realistically challenge for the NL pennant - I don't know how ANY of you can say no. It would be great if we could build a dynasty of our own prospects. But that is a once in a lifetime kind of thing. We have the team built to win now, win this year. If we can add Roberts, and THEN take our chances of adding more at the trade deadline, then we are acting like the winner we want to be.

 

Flame away.

 

:thumbsup:

[SABR Gamer]

I can tell that many of you really aren't that old, and really have not suffered or shared the great GREAT exhiliration that comes with living the Cubs fan life. Many of you have probably only heard of 1969(me too), 1984 and 1989, and didn't actually live through it. Some of you might not even come close to appreciating how sweet and bittersweet 2003 really was (Do you realize how awful it was to be a Cubs fan from 1990-2002? 1998 was great, but team wise just a tease). For me 2007 wasn't that great. No one had a great year, the team really was crap until June, in general it was winning a division that was pretty blah and it all ended with a big flop that we could see coming.

 

I don't have a bunch of stats to throw at you. I don't have a bunch of strong opinions about Hendry or where Soriano should bat. But I do know one thing, I want to win. I want to win now. I don't want to go into the season hoping to fill holes by the trade deadline and seeing how we are doing in June to decide.

 

So when you say you would "be upset" or "Hendry should walk away" about trading 4 players that MIGHT help us in 2-3 years down the road for a proven all-star calliber professional player in the vein of a Derrek Lee, just shows me that you don't get it yet. I know the mindset, you want our own players coming up and building a "Cubs Dynasty." You want them to be the guys that you knew they were going to be great back in the day.

 

That's not what happens though, the most likely scenario is that all four of those guys aren't going to make an impact, and hell they might not even make it. (Example - every one flames Hendry for the Pierre trade - but what do the Marlins really have to show for that trade? Sergio Mitre?!?!) So to be able to add a winning player, a player that can shape our team in a way that is only beneficial, and a player that clearly gives us the ability to realistically challenge for the NL pennant - I don't know how ANY of you can say no. It would be great if we could build a dynasty of our own prospects. But that is a once in a lifetime kind of thing. We have the team built to win now, win this year. If we can add Roberts, and THEN take our chances of adding more at the trade deadline, then we are acting like the winner we want to be.

 

Flame away.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Yeah I actually like what you said...

[17 Seconds]

I can tell that many of you really aren't that old, and really have not suffered or shared the great GREAT exhiliration that comes with living the Cubs fan life. Many of you have probably only heard of 1969(me too), 1984 and 1989, and didn't actually live through it. Some of you might not even come close to appreciating how sweet and bittersweet 2003 really was (Do you realize how awful it was to be a Cubs fan from 1990-2002? 1998 was great, but team wise just a tease). For me 2007 wasn't that great. No one had a great year, the team really was crap until June, in general it was winning a division that was pretty blah and it all ended with a big flop that we could see coming.

 

I don't have a bunch of stats to throw at you. I don't have a bunch of strong opinions about Hendry or where Soriano should bat. But I do know one thing, I want to win. I want to win now. I don't want to go into the season hoping to fill holes by the trade deadline and seeing how we are doing in June to decide.

 

So when you say you would "be upset" or "Hendry should walk away" about trading 4 players that MIGHT help us in 2-3 years down the road for a proven all-star calliber professional player in the vein of a Derrek Lee, just shows me that you don't get it yet. I know the mindset, you want our own players coming up and building a "Cubs Dynasty." You want them to be the guys that you knew they were going to be great back in the day.

 

That's not what happens though, the most likely scenario is that all four of those guys aren't going to make an impact, and hell they might not even make it. (Example - every one flames Hendry for the Pierre trade - but what do the Marlins really have to show for that trade? Sergio Mitre?!?!) So to be able to add a winning player, a player that can shape our team in a way that is only beneficial, and a player that clearly gives us the ability to realistically challenge for the NL pennant - I don't know how ANY of you can say no. It would be great if we could build a dynasty of our own prospects. But that is a once in a lifetime kind of thing. We have the team built to win now, win this year. If we can add Roberts, and THEN take our chances of adding more at the trade deadline, then we are acting like the winner we want to be.

 

Flame away.

 

:thumbsup:

 

Yeah I actually like what you said...

 

That's fine, just don't complain if we trade 4 players for Roberts and then we have nothing good to offer other teams if we need a starting pitcher, shortstop, center fielder, and bullpen help in July.

[17 Seconds]

Ugh. The Sun-Times says the Cubs have an offer of Gallagher/Ceda/Veal/Cedeno on the table.

 

IF this is true, then

 

a)Hendry is a complete moron, and

b)Why hasn't this been accepted yet?

 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/842384,CST-SPT-brian14.article

Edited March 14, 2008 by NCCubFan
Remove copyrighted material

[badnews]

For KingCub:

 

Link to where he did or didn't say this? We don't really know what the negotiations have sounded like.

 

What do you mean, link to where he didn't he say this? Can I link to where he "didn't say this?" Yeah, I can. What does that prove though? What direct quote did I attribute to Hendry that you're asking for a link? Personally, to me, it looks like you're trying to bail Hendry out so you're pedantically asking for documentation when it isn't necessary. Do you honestly need a link to show that the Cubs have been talking about Roberts for 3 or more months?

It's very simple. You accused Hendry for a certain behavior, and there's absolutely no evidence to show that he's acting in that way. The Orioles have always acted like this when trading a player, yet you think this time it's Hendry's fault. I'm not trying to bail out Hendry, I'm just asking for some sort of proof as to your statement. People do that all the time on this board, and justifiably so.

 

All we know is that the Orioles take forever to complete a trade, and that Angelos is probably meddling in some way. The Roberts trade isn't any different than anything else the Orioles have ever done.

 

Find me a time over the past few years when they traded an important player or signed an important player and it didn't get delayed somehow.

 

You're being too vague. What behavior? What proof? People on this board may identify specific things they are looking for, but they most of the time do not try and shield a target through a request for what is essentially pedantic documentation. I'm not going to give you a link "proving" the Cubs and the Orioles starting talking about this 3 months ago and are still doing so. You could find that yourself if you wanted to.

 

No, I'm not going to find you an example from the Orioles trading someone. I've already given you an example. *You* find me a time when the Orioles tried this crap and any decent GM with some actual self-respect didn't put it up with it. Here's your problem, you keep portraying the Orioles as some nutcases who have to be accommodated. No, they don't. When the Orioles pulled this screwjob crap with Tejada years ago, GMs didn't sit there and negotiate with them for 6 months on it. But you seem to think Hendry should bend over backwards for these guys. I don't. It shows weakness and incompetence to do so.

[badnews]

For CubbieSouthPaw

 

OMG, you've sat at the desk with Hendry and know exactly what has been said? Wow, you're in a great position and must know some very important people. I wish I could sit in on some of those talks to know how its actually done.

 

This kind of sarcastic reply without any substance to it doesn't add anything to the discussion in my view. I don't know what you're trying to say. "Hey, we don't have notarized transcripts of these trade talks so Hendry gets a free pass for the rest of forever?" Well, you can do that if you like. I don't see the sense in that.

[Sammy Sofa]

Ugh. The Sun-Times says the Cubs have an offer of Gallagher/Ceda/Veal/Cedeno on the table.

 

IF this is true, then

 

a)Hendry is a complete moron, and

b)Why hasn't this been accepted yet?

 

No kidding on both. If this deal goes through, despite their histronics, the Orioles have a pretty damn impressive offseason in terms of rebuilding their team.

[badnews]

There is no reason not to table talks with a "I'll make my best offer, you take it or leave it" demand after all of this time. But Hendry has been too weak to do that.

 

How is that stronger than "you know what I'm willing to offer, call me back when you're ready to deal"?

 

It's not a lot stronger but the wording of one does carry more weight to it. There is a sense of finality to the former moreso than the latter. In any event if either phrase had been uttered by either side, you would think this could not go on for 3 months.