Ty Cobb, etc. (split from Arod thread)

[imb]

Disregard the fact that he founded a hospital that serves a predominantly black community or that the first person he hired was a black surgeon or that he started a scholarship fund for needy Georgia youth which has given thousands of black students the chance to attend college. Forget that the Tigers' black groundskeeper in the 20's and 30's named his son after Ty. Forget that in 1926 he tried to get a black player into the MLB by passing him off as a "Cuban." Forget that he put Roy Campanella as his all time great catcher, or that his favorite player at the time of his death was Willie Mays.

 

The original "i have black friends".

[Derwood]

Disregard the fact that he founded a hospital that serves a predominantly black community or that the first person he hired was a black surgeon or that he started a scholarship fund for needy Georgia youth which has given thousands of black students the chance to attend college. Forget that the Tigers' black groundskeeper in the 20's and 30's named his son after Ty. Forget that in 1926 he tried to get a black player into the MLB by passing him off as a "Cuban." Forget that he put Roy Campanella as his all time great catcher, or that his favorite player at the time of his death was Willie Mays.

 

The original "i have black friends".

 

I'm sure Cobb was George Wallace's hero

[OleMissCub]

Disregard the fact that he founded a hospital that serves a predominantly black community or that the first person he hired was a black surgeon or that he started a scholarship fund for needy Georgia youth which has given thousands of black students the chance to attend college. Forget that the Tigers' black groundskeeper in the 20's and 30's named his son after Ty. Forget that in 1926 he tried to get a black player into the MLB by passing him off as a "Cuban." Forget that he put Roy Campanella as his all time great catcher, or that his favorite player at the time of his death was Willie Mays.

 

The original "i have black friends".

 

I'm sure Cobb was George Wallace's hero

 

Why is Cobb the poster boy for racism in baseball to you people? Based on what? Because he used the N-word? Then I suppose by that logic Abraham Lincoln should be the poster boy for racism in the White House?

 

How was Cobb any more racist than other people of his time? You guys are such scholars on the man. Enlighten me.

[imb]

Disregard the fact that he founded a hospital that serves a predominantly black community or that the first person he hired was a black surgeon or that he started a scholarship fund for needy Georgia youth which has given thousands of black students the chance to attend college. Forget that the Tigers' black groundskeeper in the 20's and 30's named his son after Ty. Forget that in 1926 he tried to get a black player into the MLB by passing him off as a "Cuban." Forget that he put Roy Campanella as his all time great catcher, or that his favorite player at the time of his death was Willie Mays.

 

The original "i have black friends".

 

I'm sure Cobb was George Wallace's hero

 

Why is Cobb the poster boy for racism in baseball to you people? Based on what? Because he used the N-word? Then I suppose by that logic Abraham Lincoln should be the poster boy for racism in the White House?

 

How was Cobb any more racist than other people of his time? You guys are such scholars on the man. Enlighten me.

 

what do you mean, "you people"?

[OleMissCub]

what do you mean, "you people"?

 

Another knee slapper from the great jester of NSBB.

[Derwood]

what do you mean, "you people"?

 

Another knee slapper from the great jester of NSBB.

 

i laughed

[OleMissCub]

what do you mean, "you people"?

 

Another knee slapper from the great jester of NSBB.

 

i laughed

 

Answer the freaking question.

[imb]

what do you mean, "you people"?

 

Another knee slapper from the great jester of NSBB.

 

i laughed

 

Answer the freaking question.

 

Hahahahahaha, take it easy.

 

I would say that comparing Ty Cobb and Abraham Lincoln as people, based on the fact that they both dropped N-bombs, is pretty loose. Lincoln was a lot more than a terrible person masquerading as a baseball player.

[OleMissCub]

 

I would say that comparing Ty Cobb and Abraham Lincoln as people, based on the fact that they both dropped N-bombs, is pretty loose. Lincoln was a lot more than a terrible person masquerading as a baseball player.

 

OK, then why else is Ty Cobb apparently baseball's greatest bigot to you? Why is that the first thing that comes up? Forget the fact that he has the highest BA in history and was one of the game's greatest playmakers. First thing that comes up is "racist!!!!" Why?

[imb]

 

I would say that comparing Ty Cobb and Abraham Lincoln as people, based on the fact that they both dropped N-bombs, is pretty loose. Lincoln was a lot more than a terrible person masquerading as a baseball player.

 

OK, then why else is Ty Cobb apparently baseball's greatest bigot to you? Why is that the first thing that comes up? Forget the fact that he has the highest BA in history and was one of the game's greatest playmakers. First thing that comes up is "racist!!!!" Why?

 

Because he was a terrible racist and that trumps his baseball ability?

 

This really isn't hard to figure out.

 

When you think of Mike Tyson, do you think "great fighter" or do you think "psychopath"?

[OleMissCub]

 

Because he was a terrible racist and that trumps his baseball ability?

 

This really isn't hard to figure out.

 

When you think of Mike Tyson, do you think "great fighter" or do you think "psychopath"?

 

A terrible racist? He was a racist sure, just like most people in those backward days, but I don't think it was bad enough to trump his playing skills.

 

Cobb was a douche with some serious personality flaws, but he wasn't a psychopath like Tyson.

 

I doubt you'd be able to find many of Tyson's contemporaries who liked him.

 

Cobb's over the top "madman racist" myth comes directly from Al Stump's (who was an adventure journalist and not a serious biographer) 1961 written works about Cobb, which are so filled with error that Cobb's family filed a lawsuit against it. Stump once wrote about Charles Lindbergh and did such a horrible job by stretching facts and creating outright made-up stories, that the normally low key Lindbergh was furious when he read it and threatened Stump's publisher. What's most unfortunate is that Cobb wasn't even alive to challenge the veracity of the writings. These half-truths have since been embellished and stretched by Ken Burns in his Baseball documentary and by that ridiculous Cobb movie with Tommy Lee Jones.

 

It'd be nice if you could be objective here instead of just plain belligerent and realize that sometimes things aren't always what they appear. Mythology goes both ways. The great heroes weren't always "great" and sometimes the worst villains weren't always as bad as they are portrayed.

[imb]

How in the world can being an unabashed racist not trump your baseball abilities?

 

This is where the whole "you're deifying him" thing comes from. He wasn't a "terrible" racist, sure. He was racist. Often. That's terrible. How you can ignore this is beyond me.

 

Seriously, if it's not muslims or Cobb, you'd have 300 posts.

 

Edit

 

Haha, I'm the one not being objective and being belligerent.

 

what do you mean, "you people"?

 

Another knee slapper from the great jester of NSBB.

 

i laughed

 

Answer the freaking question.

[OleMissCub]

How in the world can being an unabashed racist not trump your baseball abilities?

 

How you can ignore this is beyond me.

 

Ignore it? I flat out said he was a racist. That's not ignoring it.

 

If I "deified" a person, I wouldn't admit that they were a douche, a racist, had mental instability, and was an overall jerk.

 

The problem is that you have this image in your head which is just overkill. I mean, he's portrayed as if he's the Grand Wizard of the Klan or something. You still haven't shown anything that separates him from your average white American in terms of racial views at the turn of the last century.

 

Seriously, if it's not muslims or Cobb, you'd have 300 posts.

 

Hey, keep insulting me. It's OK.

[imb]

How in the world can being an unabashed racist not trump your baseball abilities?

 

How you can ignore this is beyond me.

 

Ignore it? I flat out said he was a racist. That's not ignoring it.

 

If I "deified" a person, I wouldn't admit that they were a douche, a racist, had mental instability, and was an overall jerk.

 

The problem is that you have this image in your head which is just overkill. I mean, he's portrayed as if he's the Grand Wizard of the Klan or something. You still haven't shown anything that separates him from your average white American in terms of racial views at the turn of the last century.

 

Seriously, if it's not muslims or Cobb, you'd have 300 posts.

 

Hey, keep insulting me. It's OK.

 

That's not an insult, grow some thicker skin.

 

You still haven't shown anything that separates him from your average white American in terms of racial views at the turn of the last century.

 

Cobb once slapped a black elevator operator for being "uppity." When a black night watchman intervened, Cobb pulled out a knife and stabbed him

 

Is that true or not? Because if it is, there you go.

[OleMissCub]

 

Cobb once slapped a black elevator operator for being "uppity." When a black night watchman intervened, Cobb pulled out a knife and stabbed him

 

Is that true or not? Because if it is, there you go.

 

Partially true. The Tigers were in Cleveland to play the Naps. Cobb was 23 at the time and had gone out drinking with some of the other Tigers' players. He came back to the hotel and got into an altercation with the elevator operator, who he claimed was being "insolent" (not sure what text "uppity" comes from, as none of mine say that), because he wouldn't take Cobb and the other players up to their rooms because the elevators were shut down after midnight. He shoved and hit the elevator operator and a night watchman came up and hit Cobb in the head with a nightstick, knocking Cobb down. Cobb got up and pulled out a pocket knife and slashed at the guy (none of my books say "stabbed", even the dubious Stump text), cutting him in the ear and shoulder. At this point both Cobb and the watchman were wrestling on the ground when the watchman pulled out a revolver, which Cobb, according to witnesses, kicked across the lobby. The watchman got up and hit Cobb twice more with the nightstick in the head, knocking him out.

 

To me, I see this as an incident moreso of Cobb's violent temper and oft ill disposition than racism. He got in fights with dozens of people throughout his life, most all of whom were white. I don't see how the situation would have been any different had the characters involved been white.

[imb]

So an elevator operator wouldn't take him in the elevator, because it was shut down. So he beat him and then knifed the guy who came over to stop it.

 

Favorite. Player. Ever.

[OleMissCub]

So an elevator operator wouldn't take him in the elevator, because it was shutdown. So he beat him and then knifed the guy who came over to stop it.

 

Favorite. Player. Ever.

 

As opposed to the darling of so many schoolboys who constantly partook in orgies, got drunk all the time, physically assaulted three umpires, was suspended or fined for inappropriate or vulgar conduct on the field more than a dozen times, was ejected from over 30 games in his career, often played drunk, and once physically attacked and often threatened his manager with violence.

[imb]

So an elevator operator wouldn't take him in the elevator, because it was shutdown. So he beat him and then knifed the guy who came over to stop it.

 

Favorite. Player. Ever.

 

As opposed to the darling of so many schoolboys who constantly partook in orgies, got drunk all the time, physically assaulted three umpires, was suspended or fined for inappropriate or vulgar conduct on the field more than a dozen times, was ejected from over 30 games in his career, often played drunk, and once physically attacked and often threatened his manager with violence.

 

You're right, let's excuse Cobb then, other guys were bad too.

 

In an era of racists, Cobb's racism+ was barely above league average.

[OleMissCub]

So an elevator operator wouldn't take him in the elevator, because it was shutdown. So he beat him and then knifed the guy who came over to stop it.

 

Favorite. Player. Ever.

 

As opposed to the darling of so many schoolboys who constantly partook in orgies, got drunk all the time, physically assaulted three umpires, was suspended or fined for inappropriate or vulgar conduct on the field more than a dozen times, was ejected from over 30 games in his career, often played drunk, and once physically attacked and often threatened his manager with violence.

 

You're right, let's excuse Cobb then, other guys were bad too.

 

In an era of racists, Cobb's racism+ was barely above league average.

 

Do you even know who I'm talking about?

[imb]

So an elevator operator wouldn't take him in the elevator, because it was shutdown. So he beat him and then knifed the guy who came over to stop it.

 

Favorite. Player. Ever.

 

As opposed to the darling of so many schoolboys who constantly partook in orgies, got drunk all the time, physically assaulted three umpires, was suspended or fined for inappropriate or vulgar conduct on the field more than a dozen times, was ejected from over 30 games in his career, often played drunk, and once physically attacked and often threatened his manager with violence.

 

You're right, let's excuse Cobb then, other guys were bad too.

 

In an era of racists, Cobb's racism+ was barely above league average.

 

Do you even know who I'm talking about?

 

Does it matter? It could be Jesus Christ himself and it still wouldn't excuse Cobb for being such a terrible person.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

It's Todd Hundley, isn't it

[JeffH]

While I find myself oddly enjoying this rather ridiculous discussion, it does reinforce the fact that we desperately need some hot stove news.

[XZero771679666304]

I was enjoying this until OMC insinuated that partaking in orgies is a bad thing.

[OleMissCub]

Does it matter? It could be Jesus Christ himself and it still wouldn't excuse Cobb for being such a terrible person.

 

Who is trying to excuse ANYTHING? I've said the guy was a giant toolbag. My point is that people should be able to separate on the field and off the field behavior. I don't respect his violence and world outlook, but I respect him as a player and think it would have been awesome to have seen him play.

 

My previous unidentified player basically is baseball's version of Jesus Christ, btw.

[E.J.]

While I find myself oddly enjoying this rather ridiculous discussion, it does reinforce the fact that we desperately need some hot stove news.

 

I think I'd rather watch IMB and OMC keep arguing that know what crap Hendry has planned for next season.