Why are people in such a hurry to get Theriot out of town?

[CubinNY]

Its not like Cedeno hasn't been given extended looks.

 

What is an "extended look".

 

I really cannot understand the mentality. Cedeno will likely not be an all-star, however he's much more likely to improve than Theroit. But really, that is beside the point. It is not very wise to expect all-star level production out of a first or second year player, most of the time.

 

The problem with the Cubs is that they are constructed so poorly that they need a higher level of performance out of the rookies in order to compete. At least that is the only explanation I can come up with why some of the posts in this thread are so crazy.

 

And Murton? give me a break.

[jaxxradio]

Seriously, why is Theriot being compared to Murton? One plays at a premium defensive position while the other one is a corner outfielder, where the offense is top priority.

 

I thought Theriot did very well this year. Is there room for improvement? Sure there is, but here's the thing. You're not going to get A-Rod or another premium player here because the sale of the team probably won't happen until around opening day and this team isn't going to spend money on a position that isn't a pressing need.

 

Look, Theriot's fielding percentage was .979 this season. That's not a horrible number, in fact its actually better than Jeter's fielding percentage (.970), as well as Miguel Tejada's (.971). I'm not saying that Theriot is better than those guys, he isn't, but he fielded his position well (please spare me the "inside the numbers" stats..one glaring problem with number-crunching is the fact that the numbers don't tell you how a player was positioned when the error was made. Perhaps the error in question was the result of great range, but poor fielding or a poor throw. You don't know unless you physically saw every game.)

 

One other point about Theriot...his minor league numbers are skewered. Until the 2005 season, Theriot was asked to be a switch-hitter, something he never did before. The experiment ended after the 2004 season. If you want to look at his numbers, start with 2005 when Theriot exclusively batted right-handed.

[Soul]

yeah the sale of the team really feels like it is going to put a damper on things.

 

it's probably going to be an argument between theriot and cedeno all next year, neither option seems real good to me.

 

i guess in that case i would rather give cedeno a bit more of a shot. not happy with it in either case.

[fromthestretch]

Seriously, why is Theriot being compared to Murton? One plays at a premium defensive position while the other one is a corner outfielder, where the offense is top priority.

 

I thought Theriot did very well this year. Is there room for improvement? Sure there is, but here's the thing. You're not going to get A-Rod or another premium player here because the sale of the team probably won't happen until around opening day and this team isn't going to spend money on a position that isn't a pressing need.

 

Look, Theriot's fielding percentage was .979 this season. That's not a horrible number, in fact its actually better than Jeter's fielding percentage (.970), as well as Miguel Tejada's (.971). I'm not saying that Theriot is better than those guys, he isn't, but he fielded his position well (please spare me the "inside the numbers" stats..one glaring problem with number-crunching is the fact that the numbers don't tell you how a player was positioned when the error was made. Perhaps the error in question was the result of great range, but poor fielding or a poor throw. You don't know unless you physically saw every game.)

 

One other point about Theriot...his minor league numbers are skewered. Until the 2005 season, Theriot was asked to be a switch-hitter, something he never did before. The experiment ended after the 2004 season. If you want to look at his numbers, start with 2005 when Theriot exclusively batted right-handed.

 

You used fielding percentage to say he fielded well and then pretty much summed up why it's not a great stat to evaluate fielding (not that there is a really good stat for it). I'm not saying he did a bad job defensively. He was adequate with the glove.

 

As for comparing Murton to Theriot, you can credit one of the guys who is actually for keeping Theriot as the starting SS.

 

As for Theriot's minor league numbers after 2005, yes they are better than pre-2005. They still aren't all that impressive though. Zero power and an OK OBP. His celing screams "utility guy."

 

All people are saying is that if the Cubs aren't going to upgrade that position by bringing someone new in, it shouldn't automatically be assumed that Theriot is the starting SS going into 2008. His performance this season shouldn't guarantee him a starting job next year.

[Warpticon]

Seriously, why is Theriot being compared to Murton? One plays at a premium defensive position while the other one is a corner outfielder, where the offense is top priority.

 

I thought Theriot did very well this year. Is there room for improvement? Sure there is, but here's the thing. You're not going to get A-Rod or another premium player here because the sale of the team probably won't happen until around opening day and this team isn't going to spend money on a position that isn't a pressing need.

 

Look, Theriot's fielding percentage was .979 this season. That's not a horrible number, in fact its actually better than Jeter's fielding percentage (.970), as well as Miguel Tejada's (.971). I'm not saying that Theriot is better than those guys, he isn't, but he fielded his position well (please spare me the "inside the numbers" stats..one glaring problem with number-crunching is the fact that the numbers don't tell you how a player was positioned when the error was made. Perhaps the error in question was the result of great range, but poor fielding or a poor throw. You don't know unless you physically saw every game.)

 

One other point about Theriot...his minor league numbers are skewered. Until the 2005 season, Theriot was asked to be a switch-hitter, something he never did before. The experiment ended after the 2004 season. If you want to look at his numbers, start with 2005 when Theriot exclusively batted right-handed.

 

Mmm, stat-k-bobs.

 

And fielding percentage is a largely useless stat. Not completely, but it doesn't really tell you much about how good defensively a player is at all. We're talking abouta 5ish percent deviation between the very best and the very worst, when there is a much larger difference other aspects of fielding such as range.

[fromthestretch]

Mmm, stat-k-bobs.

 

:lol:

[jaxxradio]

grass, Theriot isn't a power hitter.. most shortstops aren't. Besides, its not a position where you look at offensive numbers first.

 

SS is a position where defense is number one. Theriot made eleven errors total and had 337 assists as short this year. Those are good numbers and he is more than adequate with the glove. Does he have range? Having seen him play more than 200 games, yes he has range.. not great, but good range.

 

Offensively, I'd like to see his OBP a little higher, but .266 with twenty-eight steals and just fifty strikeouts in 537 at-bats isn't horrible by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I just looked at Theriot's numbers compared to Rafael Furcal and they are pretty much even. Furcal isn't chopped liver.

 

Warpt, I wish there was a way to judge the worth of the player defensively, other than seeing him play everyday in person.

[jaxxradio]

BTW, I am frying up some OBP and OPS today if you guys want to have some good eats.. the Old Style is on me.. lol

[CubinNY]

grass, Theriot isn't a power hitter.. most shortstops aren't. Besides, its not a position where you look at offensive numbers first.

 

SS is a position where defense is number one. Theriot made eleven errors total and had 337 assists as short this year. Those are good numbers and he is more than adequate with the glove. Does he have range? Having seen him play more than 200 games, yes he has range.. not great, but good range.

 

Offensively, I'd like to see his OBP a little higher, but .266 with twenty-eight steals and just fifty strikeouts in 537 at-bats isn't horrible by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I just looked at Theriot's numbers compared to Rafael Furcal and they are pretty much even. Furcal isn't chopped liver.

 

Warpt, I wish there was a way to judge the worth of the player defensively, other than seeing him play everyday in person.

Defense is important at every positon. I don't know where you come up with this stuff. The days of all glove, no get-on-base middle infielders are pretty much over. The questions are can the Cubs upgrade at SS? And if not, who is the better player going forward between Cedeno and Theriot? I suspect that baring a trade Theriot will start next year. I hope the Cubs/Lou will give Cedeno a chance, but I don't think the team is good enough as presently constructed to let either one struggle on a long term basis.

[fromthestretch]

grass, Theriot isn't a power hitter.. most shortstops aren't. Besides, its not a position where you look at offensive numbers first.

 

SS is a position where defense is number one. Theriot made eleven errors total and had 337 assists as short this year. Those are good numbers and he is more than adequate with the glove. Does he have range? Having seen him play more than 200 games, yes he has range.. not great, but good range.

 

Offensively, I'd like to see his OBP a little higher, but .266 with twenty-eight steals and just fifty strikeouts in 537 at-bats isn't horrible by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I just looked at Theriot's numbers compared to Rafael Furcal and they are pretty much even. Furcal isn't chopped liver.

 

Warpt, I wish there was a way to judge the worth of the player defensively, other than seeing him play everyday in person.

 

I wouldn't mind his lack of power if he could put up an OBP on the right side of .350. Yes, the steals are nice, and the fact that he doesn't get caught often helps.

 

And Furcal was chopped liver this year, of course he also battled some injuries. The only reason to compare them would be to point out that the Cubs received sub-par offensive production from the SS position for a fraction of the cost the Dodgers paid for it.

 

Of course, you want good defense from the SS position. You also don't want it to be a black hole offensively. Could the Cubs continue to win with Theriot at SS? Sure. But in order to increase the odds of that happening, they need to significantly upgrade the offense at other positions to offset Theriot's lack of production. The Cubs biggest holes in 2007 were CF, C, and SS (I'm not saying RF couldn't improve, but it wasn't near the problem those three positions were). They have a top prospect in Pie that they don't want to block in CF, so anyone they bring in would be short-term. All signs point to Soto being ready to take over at catcher. That leaves SS as a place you might look to improve long-term by bringing someone in from outside the organization starting in 2008.

[USSoccer]

grass, Theriot isn't a power hitter.. most shortstops aren't. Besides, its not a position where you look at offensive numbers first.

 

SS is a position where defense is number one. Theriot made eleven errors total and had 337 assists as short this year. Those are good numbers and he is more than adequate with the glove. Does he have range? Having seen him play more than 200 games, yes he has range.. not great, but good range.

 

Offensively, I'd like to see his OBP a little higher, but .266 with twenty-eight steals and just fifty strikeouts in 537 at-bats isn't horrible by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I just looked at Theriot's numbers compared to Rafael Furcal and they are pretty much even. Furcal isn't chopped liver.

 

Warpt, I wish there was a way to judge the worth of the player defensively, other than seeing him play everyday in person.

 

jaxx,

 

I think the board consensus is that, considering what the Cubs' offense looks like going into 2008, is that they need to upgrade their production from CF, LF, SS and C. Ryan Theriot isn't good enough to prevent them from upgrading over what they got in 2007, and in 2007 Ryan Theriot was a below replacement level player. He was below average. That's not good enough. It's not 1985 anymore-SS's need to produce offensively.

[fromthestretch]

Offensively, I'd like to see his OBP a little higher, but .266 with twenty-eight steals and just fifty strikeouts in 537 at-bats isn't horrible by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I know goony pointed out Theriot's rankings among NL shortstops earlier, but just to put this in perspective again, here how Theriot stacked up against all qualifying ML shortstops (26 shortstops in total):

 

OPS: .672 (22nd)

OBP: .326 (17th)

SLG: .346 (25th)

BA: .266 (19th)

 

Now, you may not view his offensive numbers as horrible, but compared to other ML shortstops, his numbers were pretty bad.

[jaxxradio]

Cub, defense is important in all positions.. but it's not the number one priority at 1B, 3B, LF and RF. Offense is the number one thing scouts are looking for in the corner positions. Defense is the number one thing scouts are looking for at C, 2B, SS and CF. If you get solid defense from the corners or solid offense from the middle, you got a special player.

 

As far as your enlightning comment about "the days of all glove, no get on base middle infielders are pretty much over", you get a gold star.. in other "enlightning" news, the sun rose from the east today...

 

Theriot didn't do anything this year to lose his job at short unless the Cubs get a better player via a trade or free agency, which probably won't happen until after the sale is completed.

 

As far as Cedeno is concerned, he is in the same boat as Felix Pie. Until they do something offensively at the major league level (and not in the hitter friendly Pacific Coast League), they don't have a future in this game.

[Warpticon]

Cub, defense is important in all positions.. but it's not the number one priority at 1B, 3B, LF and RF. Offense is the number one thing scouts are looking for in the corner positions. Defense is the number one thing scouts are looking for at C, 2B, SS and CF. If you get solid defense from the corners or solid offense from the middle, you got a special player.

 

As far as your enlightning comment about "the days of all glove, no get on base middle infielders are pretty much over", you get a gold star.. in other "enlightning" news, the sun rose from the east today...

 

Theriot didn't do anything this year to lose his job at short unless the Cubs get a better player via a trade or free agency, which probably won't happen until after the sale is completed.

 

As far as Cedeno is concerned, he is in the same boat as Felix Pie. Until they do something offensively at the major league level (and not in the hitter friendly Pacific Coast League), they don't have a future in this game.

 

He didn't do anything to keep his job, either. He was a shade below average in the field and well below average with the bat. The Cubs have a league average offense. With regards to potential improvement, he is a weak link. There really is no other logical way to look at it, unless you think he can make tremendous improvement at age 28 to a level he hasn't reached as a professional.

[fromthestretch]

Theriot didn't do anything this year to lose his job at short unless the Cubs get a better player via a trade or free agency, which probably won't happen until after the sale is completed.

 

Performing worse than 21 other everyday shortstops at the age of 27 and with limited potential for improvement shouldn't entitle him to keep his starting job next season. If he put those numbers up as a 24-year old and had a minor league track record that even hinted at the possibility of much better things to come, this would be an entirely different discussion.

[USSoccer]

As far as your enlightning comment about "the days of all glove, no get on base middle infielders are pretty much over", you get a gold star.. in other "enlightning" news, the sun rose from the east today...

 

Theriot didn't do anything this year to lose his job at short unless the Cubs get a better player via a trade or free agency, which probably won't happen until after the sale is completed.

 

As far as Cedeno is concerned, he is in the same boat as Felix Pie. Until they do something offensively at the major league level (and not in the hitter friendly Pacific Coast League), they don't have a future in this game.

 

Theriot did plenty to lose his job. He was a below average offensive player, and a passable defensive player. He's the definition of replaceable. He did nothing that screams "KEEP ME IN THE STARTING LINEUP". He can't hit for power. He doesn't hit for a high average. He isn't a big on-base guy. He's not fast. His range is acceptable. His arm is average. What about that skillset tells you he's a player that's worth anything more than a bench spot?

 

As far as the PCL goes, I'll take the players like Soto, Cedeno and Pie who perform very well in it despite it being a hitter friendly league over a guy with a very limited ceiling like Theriot.

[David]

Cub, defense is important in all positions.. but it's not the number one priority at 1B, 3B, LF and RF. Offense is the number one thing scouts are looking for in the corner positions. Defense is the number one thing scouts are looking for at C, 2B, SS and CF. If you get solid defense from the corners or solid offense from the middle, you got a special player.

 

I really hope the bolded isn't true, because in no world is defense more important than offense at any position. Defense should never take priority over offense. Ever. That doesn't mean that defensive ability isn't more important at the positions you listed than at others. It is. That said, the most important thing will still be what they can produce with the bat.

 

I don't think it even really needs to be said.

 

 

The only exception to this would be pitching, which is really what constitutes the vast majority of a team's "defense."

 

 

People love to say that pitching and defense is what wins baseball games. It's not. It's pitching and hitting. Defense is relatively insignificant compared to those two.

[jaxxradio]

We agree to disagree on this subject.

 

You guys are using OPS and slugging percentage for a position that doesn't have a ton of power hitting guys. Rollins was the only player that hit thirty home runs at SS. Seven other players hit 20-29 homers. Twenty-two other teams had their SS hit fewer than twenty home runs this season and thirteen of those twenty two teams had shortstops that hit fewer than 10 home runs this year.

 

Championship teams are built with pitching and defense, especially defense up the middle. Offense puts you in a position to get into post-season, but you need alot more than just offense to win a championship. Just ask the Yankees.

[abuck1220]

Cub, defense is important in all positions.. but it's not the number one priority at 1B, 3B, LF and RF. Offense is the number one thing scouts are looking for in the corner positions. Defense is the number one thing scouts are looking for at C, 2B, SS and CF.

 

that's not true.

 

As far as your enlightning comment about "the days of all glove, no get on base middle infielders are pretty much over", you get a gold star.. in other "enlightning" news, the sun rose from the east today...

 

yet you still think theriot should start even though he wouldn't even qualify as an all glove, no hit middle infielder.

 

As far as Cedeno is concerned, he is in the same boat as Felix Pie. Until they do something offensively at the major league level (and not in the hitter friendly Pacific Coast League), they don't have a future in this game.

 

what has theriot done at the major league level besides be one of the worst ss in the league? i get it, theriot was nice to you when he was in AA, maybe the other guys weren't.

[treebird]

We agree to disagree on this subject.

 

You guys are using OPS and slugging percentage for a position that doesn't have a ton of power hitting guys. Rollins was the only player that hit thirty home runs at SS. Seven other players hit 20-29 homers. Twenty-two other teams had their SS hit fewer than twenty home runs this season and thirteen of those twenty two teams had shortstops that hit fewer than 10 home runs this year.

 

Championship teams are built with pitching and defense, especially defense up the middle. Offense puts you in a position to get into post-season, but you need alot more than just offense to win a championship. Just ask the Yankees.

 

are you really just not going to look at the numbers of theriot compared to all the other shortstops in the major leagues?

 

here they are again, these are theriot's rankings when compared to all other major league ss who qualified for the batting title (there are 26).

 

OPS: .672 (22nd)

OBP: .326 (17th)

SLG: .346 (25th)

BA: .266 (19th)

 

if you're going to do that, you'd better a heck of a lot of defense, and although opinions vary on how good he is, i don't think anyone really believes he's outstanding.

[USSoccer]

We agree to disagree on this subject.

 

You guys are using OPS and slugging percentage for a position that doesn't have a ton of power hitting guys.

 

No, we're not just using OPS and SLG to evaluate him. His BA and OBP suck, too. 19th out of 26th in BA. 17th out of 26 in OBP. As a 27 year old.

[abuck1220]

 

Championship teams are built with pitching and defense, especially defense up the middle. Offense puts you in a position to get into post-season, but you need alot more than just offense to win a championship. Just ask the Yankees.

 

man, i get sick of hearing these lines every postseason.

 

if pitching beats hitting so often in the postseason, then why are the rockies about the beat the dbacks?

[abuck1220]

We agree to disagree on this subject.

 

You guys are using OPS and slugging percentage for a position that doesn't have a ton of power hitting guys.

 

No, we're not just using OPS and SLG to evaluate him. His BA and OBP suck, too. 19th out of 26th in BA. 17th out of 26 in OBP. As a 27 year old.

 

yeah, i'm eager to hear how we should be evaluating him.

 

i'm guessing hustle and collegiate winning %.

[fromthestretch]

You guys are using OPS and slugging percentage for a position that doesn't have a ton of power hitting guys. Rollins was the only player that hit thirty home runs at SS. Seven other players hit 20-29 homers. Twenty-two other teams had their SS hit fewer than twenty home runs this season and thirteen of those twenty two teams had shortstops that hit fewer than 10 home runs this year.

 

I don't understand why you're just focusing on power, since no one else here is. His lack of power is certainly a concern, but people wouldn't care about that nearly as much if he actually got on base at a decent rate. If Theriot put up an OBP like Reggie Willits, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Instead, he gets on base about 32 percent of the time, and that's just not acceptable for a guy who really doesn't bring anything else to the table offensively other than speed (which isn't all that useful if you're not on base to use it). His defense is okay, but nothing spectacular, so it's not like he's making up for his lack of offense with his glove.

[Abe Frohman]

Can someone please explain why Theriot has a "limited ceiling?" Because he is 27 or 28?

 

The arguement seems to be that Ronny Cedeno is the better option - because he is younger? What did he do when the job was his to lose in 2006? He was terrible. He belonged in AAA. What did Cedeno do in the beginning of 2007 when the job was his? He got 2 or 3 hits. He is clueless at the plate. Overmatched.

 

Cedeno has TONS of potential, but so did Gary Scott. So did Mike Harkey. So did quite a few "can't miss" prospects the Cubs have had in their system.

 

Why shouldn't Theriot be the Cubs starting SS in 2008? I am all for playing whoever had the hot hand, like Lou did in 2007. Theriot did a fine job at SS, and I'd be willing to bet next year he'll hit around .280 and score around 90 runs with an OB around .340-.350.