Why are people in such a hurry to get Theriot out of town?

[jersey cubs fan]

Chicago Cubs numbers from their SS: .254/.309/.331

 

That was the worst OPS in the league from the SS position.

 

Ryan Theriot's numbers from the SS position: .253/.312/.325

Ryan Theriot's overall numbers: .266/.326/.346

 

He started out as a mediocre platoon guy, one he was installed as the everyday man at SS, he settled into something less than that. Even if you take Theriot's overall numbers, and place them among all NL team's SS production, the Cubs would still rank just 13th, out of 16 teams. That's awful. Catcher and CF were the only two other positions where the Cubs were clearly outplayed by the competition in the NL. SS was a huge hole, and Theriot is most responsible for what the Cubs got from the SS position this year. It's not like he did well and the position was weighed down by a couple stinkers. Theriot did almost the same exact thing as Izturis once he was installed as the starting SS. He barely outperformed Cesar.

[Keener98]

If Ronny Cedeno is the answer, I don't want to know the question.

 

I still maintain that you guys really turned on Theriot. At least Matt Murton will always be loved for being a generic white guy. Probably because he came out of Boston, where Bill James is employed, so sabermetrics and stuff! Murton underachieved too. Nobody's calling for his head.

 

Nobody is calling for Murtons head cause his numbers compared to Theriots put Murton in the Hall of Fame. But hey, does anybody else want to throw out the great"board generalization" because it really helps your argument when you do it, believe me.

[jersey cubs fan]

If Ronny Cedeno is the answer, I don't want to know the question.

 

I still maintain that you guys really turned on Theriot. At least Matt Murton will always be loved for being a generic white guy. Probably because he came out of Boston, where Bill James is employed, so sabermetrics and stuff! Murton underachieved too. Nobody's calling for his head.

 

Turned on Theriot? Theriot sucks, and it's about time people face the facts. Murton actually produces. OPS+ comparison 72 to 100 this year.

 

There's nobody with a brain calling for his head because he didn't perform anywhere close to as poorly as Theriot. And nobody is calling for Theriot's head either, they are asking for somebody who doesn't suck to fill the position.

[Garage Party]

Was it June when everybody had Ryan Theriot pictures in their sigs? God help us all if Geovany Soto regresses over a full season next year.

 

I wasn't terribly worried about where his production ranked, because we got enough production from other positions, and I was satisfied with his fielding over Cesar's.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Garage Party!

[Keener98]

Ryan Theriot 2007 OPS .672

Cesar Izturis 2007 OPS .643

 

There really is no difference except Theriot needed to have a month of having a 900+ OPS to reach his numbers, and Izturis didnt. So Theriot was basically better than Izturis for 1 month, and then other than that 1 month, Izturis was the better offensive player.

[fromthestretch]

If Ronny Cedeno is the answer, I don't want to know the question.

 

I still maintain that you guys really turned on Theriot. At least Matt Murton will always be loved for being a generic white guy. Probably because he came out of Boston, where Bill James is employed, so sabermetrics and stuff! Murton underachieved too. Nobody's calling for his head.

 

There's a difference between turning on someone and pointing out the obvious.

 

You just can't win with some people on this board (and I'm not singling you out on this). You point out a player's lack of production, you're being overly critical. You support giving a young player a shot when there is currently no suitable replacement on the roster, people claim that you're saying he's the greatest player ever.

 

Seriously, unless the Cubs can bring in a significant upgrade a SS from outside the organization, Cedeno should be given a legitimate shot to win the job. If he falls on his face, the Cubs can revert back to Theriot until you can find an upgrade somewhere.

 

As for Murton, people like him because he has shown the ability to produce. He got sporadic playing time in April and struggled. He picked up the pace and had a solid May. He got a combined 21 plate appearances between June and July, spending most of that at AAA for some reason. He was very good in August and Sept. I don't think anyone would object to an upgrade in RF, but Murton isn't going to handicap this team offensively.

[Keener98]

Was it June when everybody had Ryan Theriot pictures in their sigs? God help us all if Geovany Soto regresses over a full season next year.

 

Once again, great argument.

[jersey cubs fan]

Was it June when everybody had Ryan Theriot pictures in their sigs? God help us all if Geovany Soto regresses over a full season next year.

 

I wasn't terribly worried about where his production ranked, because we got enough production from other positions, and I was satisfied with his fielding over Cesar's.

 

Obviously they didnt' get good enough production elsewhere, because they were a mediocre offense. You may not care where he ranks, but you can't get improvement unless you find a way to get better in comparison to the rest of the league.

[Tracer Bullet]

If Ronny Cedeno is the answer, I don't want to know the question.

 

I still maintain that you guys really turned on Theriot. At least Matt Murton will always be loved for being a generic white guy. Probably because he came out of Boston, where Bill James is employed, so sabermetrics and stuff! Murton underachieved too. Nobody's calling for his head.

 

If you haven't seen anyone calling for Murton's head on this board (not nec this thread), you're not looking hard enough or you are ignoring it.

[Garage Party]

I don't think anyone would object to an upgrade in RF, but Murton isn't going to handicap this team offensively.

He doesn't hit well enough for the outfield, and he doesn't field the position well enough to get away with diminished batting production.

[Keener98]

I don't think anyone would object to an upgrade in RF, but Murton isn't going to handicap this team offensively.

He doesn't hit well enough for the outfield, and he doesn't field the position well enough to get away with diminished batting production.

 

What in the sam hell are you talking about with this?

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't think anyone would object to an upgrade in RF, but Murton isn't going to handicap this team offensively.

He doesn't hit well enough for the outfield, and he doesn't field the position well enough to get away with diminished batting production.

 

Murton doesn't hit well enough to be a cornerstone in the OF, but he hits well enough to hold his own out there. If Murton played full time and translated his partial production to a full season, the Cubs would be just fine at the position. Unlike Theriot, who did start every day and proved he can't hold his own out there. I would prefer a new, better starter at SS as well as a better corner OF option. But it is clear that if you are a going to start one of the guys, Murton or Theriot, then Murton is the only possible option any reasonable person could select.

[David]

I don't think anyone would object to an upgrade in RF, but Murton isn't going to handicap this team offensively.

He doesn't hit well enough for the outfield, and he doesn't field the position well enough to get away with diminished batting production.

 

 

How on earth does an argument about Matt Murton's productivity level have anything to do with one about Ryan Theriot? The Cubs could use upgrades both in the outfield and at SS. And they need one at SS even more than in the OF.

 

I didn't know that they were mutually exclusive.

[David]

Wow. Did anyone realize just how well Murton did in his callup in the second half?

 

.310/.375/.543

 

6 2B 7 HR

 

Only 116 AB's, so take it with a grain of salt, but not bad, nonetheless. That AB/HR is pretty solid, too.

[Keener98]

Wow. Did anyone realize just how well Murton did in his callup in the second half?

 

.310/.375/.543

 

6 2B 7 HR

 

Only 116 AB's, so take it with a grain of salt, but not bad, nonetheless. That AB/HR is pretty solid, too.

 

Thats nothing compared to what Theriot did for the Cubs, I dont care what those stupid stats say.

[fromthestretch]

I don't think anyone would object to an upgrade in RF, but Murton isn't going to handicap this team offensively.

He doesn't hit well enough for the outfield, and he doesn't field the position well enough to get away with diminished batting production.

 

Dimished batting production? The guy has been a great second-half player, putting up a post-ASB OPS of over .900 the past two seasons. The fact that he's 26 next season and has shown success at the major league level suggests that he could be a productive player at a low cost for this team. I'm still trying to figure out why he was sent down. He was essentially relegated to pinch-hitting duties in early June following a good May, and then he gets sent down.

 

Not to take anything away from Cliff Floyd, who was OK offensively, but Murton should not have been platooned after how he performed in 2006. They either should have gotten a major upgrade or just let him play everyday. Same thing applies to 2008...either go big or let Murton play.

[Tracer Bullet]

Wow. Did anyone realize just how well Murton did in his callup in the second half?

 

.310/.375/.543

 

6 2B 7 HR

 

Only 116 AB's, so take it with a grain of salt, but not bad, nonetheless. That AB/HR is pretty solid, too.

 

Yes. He was also great last year after the ASB. You'd think those second-halfs (especially since his overall numbers are still league average) would have earned him the starting gig over the likes of Floyd or Jones, but apparently not for this team. Hopefully he's the default starter for '08 unless we bring in someone who is, you know, better than Murton.

[Backtobanks]

Obviously, the Cubs will go into 2008 as contenders, so I wonder how long of a leash Pie, Murton, and Cedeno will have as starters. Putting those three players in the starting lineup along with Soto at C really requires that they (the individual players and the team) had better get off to a good start.

[Sammy Sofa]

Obviously, the Cubs will go into 2008 as contenders, so I wonder how long of a leash Pie, Murton, and Cedeno will have as starters. Putting those three players in the starting lineup along with Soto at C really requires that they (the individual players and the team) had better get off to a good start.

 

And that they add at least one serious offensive impact player. For better or for worse, one of them is going to have to sit in that regard, and I have a feeling it's going to be either Cedeno or Pie.

[David]

Obviously, the Cubs will go into 2008 as contenders, so I wonder how long of a leash Pie, Murton, and Cedeno will have as starters. Putting those three players in the starting lineup along with Soto at C really requires that they (the individual players and the team) had better get off to a good start.

 

You're assuming that they don't upgrade at any of those 3 positions in the offseason.

 

I really hope that's not the case.

 

 

Hell, if they don't upgrade at one of those, they basically don't upgrade anywhere. The only other obvious need is another starter.

[Warpticon]

Was it June when everybody had Ryan Theriot pictures in their sigs? God help us all if Geovany Soto regresses over a full season next year.

 

I wasn't terribly worried about where his production ranked, because we got enough production from other positions, and I was satisfied with his fielding over Cesar's.

 

Enough production from other positions.

 

Where are you getting this nonsense from? The Cubs were 8th in the NL in runs. There are 16 NL teams. That puts them close to dead center. Explain to me how middle of the pack is "enough." 7th in batting average, 9th in on-base percentage, 8th in slugging, 8th in OPS. It was the definition of an average offensive team. And you say that's "enough." Do you even want the Cubs to be successful?

 

And then you turn around and say this:

 

I don't think anyone would object to an upgrade in RF, but Murton isn't going to handicap this team offensively.

He doesn't hit well enough for the outfield, and he doesn't field the position well enough to get away with diminished batting production.

 

Are you freaking serious? You don't even agree with yourself. I thought production was "good enough?" Nevermind that what you're saying is dead wrong.

[USSoccer]

I don't think anyone would object to an upgrade in RF, but Murton isn't going to handicap this team offensively.

He doesn't hit well enough for the outfield, and he doesn't field the position well enough to get away with diminished batting production.

 

Aside from the fact that the logic is wrong, considering that he outperformed Theriot by a wide, wide margin, exactly what are you bringing his name into your argument for? It's actually making your already flawed argument worse.

 

Murton and Theriot have nothing to do with each other.

[CUBZ99]

Seriously, unless the Cubs can bring in a significant upgrade a SS from outside the organization, Cedeno should be given a legitimate shot to win the job. If he falls on his face, the Cubs can revert back to Theriot until you can find an upgrade somewhere.

 

.

 

Isn't that exactly what happened this year. Cedeno's 2006 numbers were abysmal. Izturis would have been an upgrade. This year, Lou was looking for a player to step up and claim the SS position after Izturis failed to impress anyone. Instead of stepping up Cedeno tanked to start the season. Its not like Cedeno hasn't been given extended looks.

 

Out of all of the options this year Theriot was the most productive.

[Keener98]

Seriously, unless the Cubs can bring in a significant upgrade a SS from outside the organization, Cedeno should be given a legitimate shot to win the job. If he falls on his face, the Cubs can revert back to Theriot until you can find an upgrade somewhere.

 

.

 

Isn't that exactly what happened this year. Cedeno's 2006 numbers were abysmal. Izturis would have been an upgrade. This year, Lou was looking for a player to step up and claim the SS position after Izturis failed to impress anyone. Instead of stepping up Cedeno tanked to start the season. Its not like Cedeno hasn't been given extended looks.

 

Out of all of the options this year Theriot was the most productive.

 

Which isnt sayin much

[fromthestretch]

Seriously, unless the Cubs can bring in a significant upgrade a SS from outside the organization, Cedeno should be given a legitimate shot to win the job. If he falls on his face, the Cubs can revert back to Theriot until you can find an upgrade somewhere.

 

.

 

Isn't that exactly what happened this year. Cedeno's 2006 numbers were abysmal. Izturis would have been an upgrade. This year, Lou was looking for a player to step up and claim the SS position after Izturis failed to impress anyone. Instead of stepping up Cedeno tanked to start the season. Its not like Cedeno hasn't been given extended looks.

 

Out of all of the options this year Theriot was the most productive.

 

He was the most productive because he was the only one given a legit chance to play.

 

It's not like Cedeno crapped the bed in spring training:

 

Cedeno: .328/.427/.516, 64 AB, 11/11 BB/K (3 errors)

Theriot: .347/.405/.520, 75 AB, 7/7 BB/K (4 errors)

Izturis: .311/.436/.356, 45 AB, 10/2 BB/K (2 errors)

 

He wasn't given much of a chance to play in April, getting a few starts here and there and coming in occasionally very late in ballgames.

 

No one, and I mean NO ONE, has argued that his 2006 numbers were good. However, when you factor in Cedeno's age and minor league success combined with Theriot's very sub-par performance this season, Cedeno deserves a legitimate shot at earning the starting job in 2008, provided that the Cubs don't bring someone that would amount to a major upgrade at that position. If he doesn't perform, they can fall back on Theriot until they can bring in a legitimate starting shortstop.