Why are people in such a hurry to get Theriot out of town?

[Derwood]

isn't this argument about cedeno vs. theriot really just arguing whether you prefer your poop the smell of dog poop or cow poop?

[CardsFanInChiTown]

It is unexplainable.

 

 

Heh, it happens. Anthony Reyes is our minor league performance/good peripherals/horrible MLB performance guy we debate about. :wink:

[Guest]

isn't this argument about cedeno vs. theriot really just arguing whether you prefer your poop the smell of dog poop or cow poop?

 

no, its philosophical - how the organization approaches player development and building a roster. how foolish is it to write off a player after one season? Heck, Alex Frickin' Rodriguez had a sub .700 OPS after 200 major league at-bats.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

maybe so, but given that cedeno has a shot to be major league quality and theriot doesn't, why not play cedeno? Should the Royals give up on Gordon because he had his chance this year? That kind of ridiculous thinking doesn't get you anywhere.

 

There are a few differences:

 

1) Unlike the Cubs the Royals aren't competing for the playoffs so it's easier to absorb sub par performance.

2) Cedeno is nowhere near the prospect Gordan is.

 

If he has a solid ST I'd give Cedeno the job but I'd put him a on short leash. The Cubs are contenders - they can't afford an everyday .247/.277/.349.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

isn't this argument about cedeno vs. theriot really just arguing whether you prefer your poop the smell of dog poop or cow poop?

 

no, its philosophical - how the organization approaches player development and building a roster. how foolish is it to write off a player after one season? Heck, Alex Frickin' Rodriguez had a sub .700 OPS after 200 major league at-bats.

 

 

I wasn't advocating writing off Cedeno.

 

The A-Rod thing is misleading - he was 18 and 19 when he put up those stats and at the time he was considered one of the best HS prospects in the history of baseball. You can't compare him to Cedeno.

 

 

EDIT - Where do you draw the line with these players?

[fromthestretch]

I really don't get the Ronny Cedeno love here. The guy mashed AAA pitching... big deal, a lot of people do. Jason Dubois did. David Kelton did.

 

David Kelton mashed AAA pitching? Kelton's AAA OPS is in the mid .700s in just under 1400 at-bats. His best single-season OPS at AAA was .784.

[Guest]

I really don't get the Ronny Cedeno love here. The guy mashed AAA pitching... big deal, a lot of people do. Jason Dubois did. David Kelton did.

 

David Kelton mashed AAA pitching? Kelton's AAA OPS is in the mid .700s in just under 1400 at-bats. His best single-season OPS at AAA was .784.

 

I don't think mizzou is concerned with facts or reality.

[UK1679666180]

I really don't get the Ronny Cedeno love here. The guy mashed AAA pitching... big deal, a lot of people do. Jason Dubois did. David Kelton did. What are they up to these days? Why people are so willing to push aside Cedeno's atrocious career major league numbers and use his minor league numbers is beyond me. At least be consistent. You can't throw out some stats and keep the others. But if you're going to only use one set of stats, use the ones that matter most -- the major league ones.

 

Cedeno sucks. I'm fine with having him as the 25th man but he's not a realistic option to be a starter.

 

And who should be at SS?

 

Once again, what is wrong with letting him compete with Theriot in ST for the starting SS? Theriot did nothing to prove he should go into next year as the starter and Cedeno has shown enough glimpses and tools to deserve a shot to compete for that spot if it is a battle between the two.

 

I think it's too early to say Cedeno sucks. I think right now, he has just as good of a chance to beat out Theriot as Theriot does of remaining as the starter, under the assumption that it would be a fair competition.

[Guest]

isn't this argument about cedeno vs. theriot really just arguing whether you prefer your poop the smell of dog poop or cow poop?

 

no, its philosophical - how the organization approaches player development and building a roster. how foolish is it to write off a player after one season? Heck, Alex Frickin' Rodriguez had a sub .700 OPS after 200 major league at-bats.

 

 

I wasn't advocating writing off Cedeno.

 

The A-Rod thing is misleading - he was 18 and 19 when he put up those stats and at the time he was considered one of the best HS prospects in the history of baseball. You can't compare him to Cedeno.

 

 

EDIT - Where do you draw the line with these players?

 

 

well, there are two choices - write him off or play him. so if you aren't writing him off, there is no excuse to not play him. while situations differ, the point is valid that young players may not play to their potential when they first arrive in the major leagues. in other words, you should not write off players after one major league season.

[UK1679666180]

in other words, you should not write off players after one major league season.

 

Especially when there is no legit starter or backup standing in his way. Theriot has value, but his ceiling and maximum value is as a utility type of player (Counsell with less pop).

[Abe Frohman]

Cedeno had his shot, a couple of times. To say he is superior to what Ryan Theriot did for the Cubs with his chances is ignoring the facts.

 

 

Please...list these "facts" for me.

 

* Offensive and defensive statistics (you can look them up).

 

* The Cubs winning percentages with Theriot starting/Cedeno starting.

 

All the "mathmeticians" that want to say that Theriot "sucked" in 2007 - I don't really know what to say. I am sure he will improve, and I am sure there was a reason why he started at SS most of the year. I know he was inconsistant at best offensively, and didn't play SS like Ozzie Smith.

 

I can appreciate that the 2007 Chicago Cubs were a hell of a lot better than the 06 Cubs - and they got almost all the plays from SS because of Theriot. I watched a hell of a lot of games this season, and we definately had a better team when he was in the lineup. I love players like Theriot, and hope he is our SS/2B for as long as he plays like he did in 07.

 

I'll bet you if you asked any member of the team they would agree with me too.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

isn't this argument about cedeno vs. theriot really just arguing whether you prefer your poop the smell of dog poop or cow poop?

 

no, its philosophical - how the organization approaches player development and building a roster. how foolish is it to write off a player after one season? Heck, Alex Frickin' Rodriguez had a sub .700 OPS after 200 major league at-bats.

 

 

I wasn't advocating writing off Cedeno.

 

The A-Rod thing is misleading - he was 18 and 19 when he put up those stats and at the time he was considered one of the best HS prospects in the history of baseball. You can't compare him to Cedeno.

 

 

EDIT - Where do you draw the line with these players?

 

 

well, there are two choices - write him off or play him. so if you aren't writing him off, there is no excuse to not play him. while situations differ, the point is valid that young players may not play to their potential when they first arrive in the major leagues. in other words, you should not write off players after one major league season.

 

 

Well, the 3rd choice is to send him back down to AAA while the Cubs are in the hunt for the playoffs. :wink:

 

I do agree with your overall point though, the Cubs shouldn't give up on Cedeno. That said, it's completely reasonable to be skeptical about his future. He's not the kind of prospect you want to gamble your playoff chances on. If he starts out slow it'd be completely reasonable to go in another direction. At 24 he's still young but on the other hand he's no longer a pup.

[Guest]

well, a lot of people would be in favor of going another direction now - myself included. just given the choice between ronny and theriot, I would go with Cedeno. I guess from my perspective the Cubs were division contenders but not world series contenders.

[UK1679666180]

I do agree with your overall point though, the Cubs shouldn't give up on Cedeno. That said, it's completely reasonable to be skeptical about his future. He's not the kind of prospect you want to gamble your playoff chances on. If he starts out slow it'd be completely reasonable to go in another direction. At 24 he's still young but on the other hand he's no longer a pup.

 

They have two choices, see what he can do in Chicago or trade him. AAA isn't a likely choice for him, he's already been thru and circuit and done well. He has to prove he can do it at the majors.

 

Everyone has to the right to be skeptical, he hasn't done enough in the majors to not merit being a favorite. The concept that Theriot has earned the starting job b/c of what he did in '07 hides the fact he was below avg. SS both offensively and defensively. If it takes Cedeno competiting for that spot to find out if he can be better than below avg, so be it.

 

I don't know if he'll be better than Theriot, if I was to guess now, I would say no, but I would want a more definitive answer than Cedeno struggling and a subpar year from Theriot.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

well, a lot of people would be in favor of going another direction now - myself included. just given the choice between ronny and theriot, I would go with Cedeno. I guess from my perspective the Cubs were division contenders but not world series contenders.

 

 

Personally I don't think the best teams always win the WS. The 06 Cards were God awful. :wink:

[sethuel1]

* The Cubs winning percentages with Theriot starting/Cedeno starting.

Oh god that has to be a joke.

[Mizzou]

I really don't get the Ronny Cedeno love here. The guy mashed AAA pitching... big deal, a lot of people do. Jason Dubois did. David Kelton did.

 

David Kelton mashed AAA pitching? Kelton's AAA OPS is in the mid .700s in just under 1400 at-bats. His best single-season OPS at AAA was .784.

 

I don't think mizzou is concerned with facts or reality.

Great post. Thanks for contributing. I assumed Kelton hit minor league pitching well and didn't bother to look it up. That's neither here nor there though. This is about Ronny Cedeno's inability to hit a baseball at the major league level.

 

I really don't get the Ronny Cedeno love here. The guy mashed AAA pitching... big deal, a lot of people do. Jason Dubois did. David Kelton did. What are they up to these days? Why people are so willing to push aside Cedeno's atrocious career major league numbers and use his minor league numbers is beyond me. At least be consistent. You can't throw out some stats and keep the others. But if you're going to only use one set of stats, use the ones that matter most -- the major league ones.

 

Cedeno sucks. I'm fine with having him as the 25th man but he's not a realistic option to be a starter.

 

And who should be at SS?

 

Once again, what is wrong with letting him compete with Theriot in ST for the starting SS? Theriot did nothing to prove he should go into next year as the starter and Cedeno has shown enough glimpses and tools to deserve a shot to compete for that spot if it is a battle between the two.

 

I think it's too early to say Cedeno sucks. I think right now, he has just as good of a chance to beat out Theriot as Theriot does of remaining as the starter, under the assumption that it would be a fair competition.

What's the point in letting them compete in spring training? Ronny has shown that he can hit minor league pitching, I'm sure he'll continue to do so in spring training next year. His problem is hitting major league pitching. Deciding who your starting SS is based on spring training at bats is never a good idea. Personally, I hope we acquire a SS via the trade market and Theriot is on the bench with Cedeno in AAA. But if the choice is between Theriot and Cedeno, I'll take the guy who has a higher career OPS than Jose Macias.

[UK1679666180]

What's the point in letting them compete in spring training? Ronny has shown that he can hit minor league pitching, I'm sure he'll continue to do so in spring training next year. His problem is hitting major league pitching. Deciding who your starting SS is based on spring training at bats is never a good idea. Personally, I hope we acquire a SS via the trade market and Theriot is on the bench with Cedeno in AAA. If the choice is between Theriot and Cedeno, I'll take the guy who has a higher career OPS than Jose Macias.

 

Should they give Pie a shot to compete in ST? He's hit AAA pitching, hasn't done squat in the majors, hell, he has a better CF'er in front of him than Cedeno does at SS.

 

You let them compete in ST to see who will likely be better. Beyond watching them take one or two ABs a game, they also judge them in practice how they've improved or stayed the same, how they field the ball, how they're instincts are, how they hit in the cage, and against live pitching. Those 2-3 ABs a game are very small in the grand scheme of things of competiting for a job in ST.

 

I still don't know why people are afraid to let them compete in ST?

 

So far, the only answer has been that Cedeno he'll do well in ST.

Edited October 15, 2007 by UK

[Keener98]

Cedeno had his shot, a couple of times. To say he is superior to what Ryan Theriot did for the Cubs with his chances is ignoring the facts.

 

 

Please...list these "facts" for me.

 

* Offensive and defensive statistics (you can look them up).

 

* The Cubs winning percentages with Theriot starting/Cedeno starting.

 

All the "mathmeticians" that want to say that Theriot "sucked" in 2007 - I don't really know what to say. I am sure he will improve, and I am sure there was a reason why he started at SS most of the year. I know he was inconsistant at best offensively, and didn't play SS like Ozzie Smith.

 

I can appreciate that the 2007 Chicago Cubs were a hell of a lot better than the 06 Cubs - and they got almost all the plays from SS because of Theriot. I watched a hell of a lot of games this season, and we definately had a better team when he was in the lineup. I love players like Theriot, and hope he is our SS/2B for as long as he plays like he did in 07.

 

I'll bet you if you asked any member of the team they would agree with me too.

 

Why are you sure that a 28 yr old will improve, and a 25 year old wont?

 

You say you love players like Theriot? So you like sub .700 OPS hitting, wont take a walk, doesnt take pitches, and is average at best defensively type of players? You need to take your LSU blinders off, and reailze that Theriot is not a major league caliber SS.

 

Theriot made his year by having 1 great month and 5 sub par months.

[bhogg]

I think they should battle it out paper / rock /scissors style.

 

That'll learn 'em!

[Guest]

Great post. Thanks for contributing. I assumed Kelton hit minor league pitching well and didn't bother to look it up.

 

obviously if you were concerned with facts you would have looked it up. your contributions to this topic are therefore pretty worthless.

[Guest]

well, a lot of people would be in favor of going another direction now - myself included. just given the choice between ronny and theriot, I would go with Cedeno. I guess from my perspective the Cubs were division contenders but not world series contenders.

 

 

Personally I don't think the best teams always win the WS. The 06 Cards were God awful. :wink:

 

no, but they have the best chance to win. sub 90 win teams have not won very many world series.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

no, but they have the best chance to win. sub 90 win teams have not won very many world series.

 

 

That's because not many sub 90 win teams make the playoffs due to the fact there wasn't always an extended playoff format. It'll still be a rare occurrence but Going forward I expect it'll happen more often.

[Mizzou]

Great post. Thanks for contributing. I assumed Kelton hit minor league pitching well and didn't bother to look it up.

 

obviously if you were concerned with facts you would have looked it up. your contributions to this topic are therefore pretty worthless.

Again with a pointless and stupid comment. What's your problem?

 

Try responding to the body of my post rather than nitpicking at crap.

[Guest]

Great post. Thanks for contributing. I assumed Kelton hit minor league pitching well and didn't bother to look it up.

 

obviously if you were concerned with facts you would have looked it up. your contributions to this topic are therefore pretty worthless.

Again with a pointless and stupid comment. What's your problem?

 

Try responding to the body of my post rather than nitpicking at crap.

 

my problem is people that state false facts supporting illogical arguments. if there was any body to your post I would respond to it. Basically you stated your opinion on Cedeno and then backed it up with a bunch of things you made up. my response is that your opinion isn't based on facts. I already stated that.