College Football - Week of 9/15

[Mephistopheles]

who would go? probably PSU and USC. Who would be deserving? USC and UF/LSU which i dunno. Under that scenario its hard to imagine that PSU being more deserving. With the BCS system treating wins and losses as absolute (a 31-28 OT win looks the same as a 70-0 win against the same teams) PSU would sneak in, which is again absurd. They took out quality wins, margin of victory and everything else making the system effectively a poll.

[Derwood]

margin of victory should NOT be part of the BCS formula. it only encourages coaches to keep their starters in all game and run up the scores against hapless opponents.

[Andy]

margin of victory should NOT be part of the BCS formula. it only encourages coaches to keep their starters in all game and run up the scores against hapless opponents.

Which a lot of coaches do to some extent anyway because of the pollsters...

[Mephistopheles]

margin of victory should NOT be part of the BCS formula. it only encourages coaches to keep their starters in all game and run up the scores against hapless opponents.

 

so say LSU beating Arkansas say 42-21 should be worth as much as Florida beating Arkansas 21-20? Thats dumb. If you want to cap margin of victory at something, say 21-24 points, thats fine. Margin of victory certainly matters just as it does in baseball.

[Derwood]

margin of victory should NOT be part of the BCS formula. it only encourages coaches to keep their starters in all game and run up the scores against hapless opponents.

Which a lot of coaches do to some extent anyway because of the pollsters...

 

i'm sensitive to this because of 1994 when PSU's 3rd string defense allowed a couple of late TD's to Indiana while Nebraska ran up the score in the same week, which led to pollsters dropping PSU from #1 to #2; they never recovered, and went on to destroy Oregon in the Rose Bowl while Nebraska played #3 Miami in the other bowl and then won the NC

[CuseCubFan69]

margin of victory should NOT be part of the BCS formula. it only encourages coaches to keep their starters in all game and run up the scores against hapless opponents.

 

so say LSU beating Arkansas say 42-21 should be worth as much as Florida beating Arkansas 21-20? Thats dumb. If you want to cap margin of victory at something, say 21-24 points, thats fine. Margin of victory certainly matters just as it does in baseball.

 

But looking at final scores can be deceiving. I'll use your scores for an example. LSU wins after the score is 21-21 on a last minute TD and they return an offside kick for a TD. Florida is ahead 21-0 and puts in reserves and they give up 2 quick TD's and now they are on their heels and Arkansas scores again on a fumble recovery and then goes for 2 and fails. There are many scenarios like this that effect the final score and make the final score look different than the actuality of what really happened.

[Derwood]

margin of victory should NOT be part of the BCS formula. it only encourages coaches to keep their starters in all game and run up the scores against hapless opponents.

 

so say LSU beating Arkansas say 42-21 should be worth as much as Florida beating Arkansas 21-20? Thats dumb. If you want to cap margin of victory at something, say 21-24 points, thats fine. Margin of victory certainly matters just as it does in baseball.

 

But looking at final scores can be deceiving. I'll use your scores for an example. LSU wins after the score is 21-21 on a last minute TD and they return an offside kick for a TD. Florida is ahead 21-0 and puts in reserves and they give up 2 quick TD's and now they are on their heels and Arkansas scores again on a fumble recovery and then goes for 2 and fails. There are many scenarios like this that effect the final score and make the final score look different than the actuality of what really happened.

 

exactly. i also don't like a system that would encourage coaches to keep their starters in a blowout game, as there is a huge chance that people get hurt. why should JoePa keep Morelli out there in a 31-3 game in the 4th quarter?

[Derwood]

should we count baseball victories differently if the team wins by 12 instead of by 1?

[CuseCubFan69]

LoC...you're good with numbers as are many on this board. What I'd like to see is a total breakdown of the game and put that into specific points.

 

Florida vs LSU

 

Florida dominates the 1st quarter and leads 14-0. Outgains LSU 120-21

 

2nd quarter:

LSU scores 10 points and Florida 3. LSU scores a TD on a turnover and drives 30 due to good field position for a FG. Florida was driving and LSU picked off the pass and ran it for a TD. They drive 74 yards and kick a FG.

 

Now it's 17-10

 

3rd Quarter:

 

Florida again outgains LSU by a large margin and misses 2 FG's and scored a TD that was called back by a horrible call. LSU does nothing offensively.

 

4th quarter:

 

Complete stalemate. But, Florida fumbles a punt on their own 20 and it's kicked around and it ends up on the 7. LSU punches in it on 4th down to go down 17-16. Now, they go for 2 and a breakdown in coverage gets them 2. They kick off and Florida brings in back to their 45 and gets to the LSU 10 with 2 seconds left. The kick is blocked and LSU wins 18-17.

 

Now what I'd like to see is a mathematic breakdown of that game and that X amount of points are given to Florida.

 

Now game B:

 

Penn State vs Temple second to last game of the year for the Lions

 

Penn St is up 21-0 in the first and is dominating on both sides of the ball.

 

2nd quarter:

Penn State is up 35-7, still dominating and Temple scores on a miracle play

 

3rd quarter:

 

Paterno wants to rest his starters Halfway through for Michigan St who is 8-2

Temple scores twice is now down 35-21 while Penn State is running the ball not to show up Temple

 

Paterno puts starters back in and wins 42-21

 

Same week Florida beats Florida Atlantic 59-0

 

Florida dominates from beginning to end. They put their subs in the later than Penn St did but they are deeper and continue to control the game. Florida also continue to pass the whole game.

 

Because Florida is deeper, are they a better team? Because Peterno made a possible voting/margin of victory costly decision, will he be punished?

 

I suggest that points scored on bench players not be graded or scored as highly as if the starters were in the whole time like the LSU/Florida game. IMO, these games HAVE to be broken down play by play and not by a final score.

[SouthSideRyan]

Some people just don't get it. I'll use the baseball analogy again, if a team wins the game it doesnt mean theyre better. If a team in baseball goes 20-15 out of the gate it doesnt mean they are a better team than the one who went 18-17.

 

 

Jesus christ this world is built upon falsehoods.

 

Then what is better?

 

The top 2 teams in the SEC.

[Exile on Waveland]

not really. i understand the system would select an undefeated psu team.

 

does that mean that psu should be there? absolutely not

 

cool. next year, we just won't have wins or losses and we'll nominate you to decide who "deserves" to be there

 

If Hawaii goes undefeated they won't be in the title game. Nor will they deserve to be. Why? Strength of schedule; they won't have played or beaten anyone.

 

The same logic can be applied to Penn State -- though, of course, they will have played a far more stringent schedule than Hawaii. If they go undefeated they won't necessarily deserve to be in the title game because a one-loss UF or LSU team likely will have the more impressive credentials.

[CuseCubFan69]

not really. i understand the system would select an undefeated psu team.

 

does that mean that psu should be there? absolutely not

 

cool. next year, we just won't have wins or losses and we'll nominate you to decide who "deserves" to be there

 

If Hawaii goes undefeated they won't be in the title game. Nor will they deserve to be. Why? Strength of schedule; they won't have played or beaten anyone.

 

The same logic can be applied to Penn State -- though, of course, they will have played a far more stringent schedule than Hawaii. If they go undefeated they won't necessarily deserve to be in the title game because a one-loss UF or LSU team likely will have the more impressive credentials.

 

I suppose you have to break down what the credentials are.

 

Hawaii's schedule is well, let's see how it plays out but they only play 1 BCS team and that's Washington.

 

Again, the SEC, Big 12 and ACC's strength of schedule gets an extra push due to their playoff game.

[Exile on Waveland]

not really. i understand the system would select an undefeated psu team.

 

does that mean that psu should be there? absolutely not

 

cool. next year, we just won't have wins or losses and we'll nominate you to decide who "deserves" to be there

 

If Hawaii goes undefeated they won't be in the title game. Nor will they deserve to be. Why? Strength of schedule; they won't have played or beaten anyone.

 

The same logic can be applied to Penn State -- though, of course, they will have played a far more stringent schedule than Hawaii. If they go undefeated they won't necessarily deserve to be in the title game because a one-loss UF or LSU team likely will have the more impressive credentials.

 

I suppose you have to break down what the credentials are.

 

Hawaii's schedule is well, let's see how it plays out but they only play 1 BCS team and that's Washington.

 

Again, the SEC, Big 12 and ACC's strength of schedule gets an extra push due to their playoff game.

 

Yes, I am all for breaking down credentials. That was my point, undefeated isn't necessarily the end-all, be-all.

 

Edit: Also, I think Washington is improved this year and isn't "nobody"; however, for purposes of playing in the BCS Championship game and that's your best win, they basically are nobody.

[CuseCubFan69]

not really. i understand the system would select an undefeated psu team.

 

does that mean that psu should be there? absolutely not

 

cool. next year, we just won't have wins or losses and we'll nominate you to decide who "deserves" to be there

 

If Hawaii goes undefeated they won't be in the title game. Nor will they deserve to be. Why? Strength of schedule; they won't have played or beaten anyone.

 

The same logic can be applied to Penn State -- though, of course, they will have played a far more stringent schedule than Hawaii. If they go undefeated they won't necessarily deserve to be in the title game because a one-loss UF or LSU team likely will have the more impressive credentials.

 

I suppose you have to break down what the credentials are.

 

Hawaii's schedule is well, let's see how it plays out but they only play 1 BCS team and that's Washington.

 

Again, the SEC, Big 12 and ACC's strength of schedule gets an extra push due to their playoff game.

 

Yes, I am all for breaking down credentials. That was my point, undefeated isn't necessarily the end-all, be-all.

 

But that's one of the beauty parts of college football that almost all or all other highly watched sports has, the undefeated season. If a group of kids win every game they deserve to play until someone beats them imo. Say Florida loses to LSU. They had their shot just as Michigan had their shot last year with OSU. I see no reason why you shouldn't let somebody else get a shot at beating LSU instead of giving another chance to win 2 out of 3.

[Exile on Waveland]

not really. i understand the system would select an undefeated psu team.

 

does that mean that psu should be there? absolutely not

 

cool. next year, we just won't have wins or losses and we'll nominate you to decide who "deserves" to be there

 

If Hawaii goes undefeated they won't be in the title game. Nor will they deserve to be. Why? Strength of schedule; they won't have played or beaten anyone.

 

The same logic can be applied to Penn State -- though, of course, they will have played a far more stringent schedule than Hawaii. If they go undefeated they won't necessarily deserve to be in the title game because a one-loss UF or LSU team likely will have the more impressive credentials.

 

I suppose you have to break down what the credentials are.

 

Hawaii's schedule is well, let's see how it plays out but they only play 1 BCS team and that's Washington.

 

Again, the SEC, Big 12 and ACC's strength of schedule gets an extra push due to their playoff game.

 

Yes, I am all for breaking down credentials. That was my point, undefeated isn't necessarily the end-all, be-all.

 

But that's one of the beauty parts of college football that almost all or all other highly watched sports has, the undefeated season. If a group of kids win every game they deserve to play until someone beats them imo. Say Florida loses to LSU. They had their shot just as Michigan had their shot last year with OSU. I see no reason why you shouldn't let somebody else get a shot at beating LSU instead of giving another chance to win 2 out of 3.

 

Well, perhaps I should've been more clear, but I wasn't pushing for both a one-loss UF and a one-loss LSU in the BCS game. But one of them might be more deserving than certain undefeated teams.

[Guest]

should we count baseball victories differently if the team wins by 12 instead of by 1?

 

Why are you talking about baseball?

[CuseCubFan69]

should we count baseball victories differently if the team wins by 12 instead of by 1?

 

Why are you talking about baseball?

 

Because LoK used a baseball example. One team at 20-15 and another at 18-17.

[TruffleShuffle]

margin of victory should NOT be part of the BCS formula. it only encourages coaches to keep their starters in all game and run up the scores against hapless opponents.

 

so say LSU beating Arkansas say 42-21 should be worth as much as Florida beating Arkansas 21-20? Thats dumb. If you want to cap margin of victory at something, say 21-24 points, thats fine. Margin of victory certainly matters just as it does in baseball.

 

But looking at final scores can be deceiving. I'll use your scores for an example. LSU wins after the score is 21-21 on a last minute TD and they return an offside kick for a TD. Florida is ahead 21-0 and puts in reserves and they give up 2 quick TD's and now they are on their heels and Arkansas scores again on a fumble recovery and then goes for 2 and fails. There are many scenarios like this that effect the final score and make the final score look different than the actuality of what really happened.

 

lawl that's rich.... judging by Saturday's performance, Urban Meyer wouldn't put the reserves in until the score was 210-0.

[CuseCubFan69]

margin of victory should NOT be part of the BCS formula. it only encourages coaches to keep their starters in all game and run up the scores against hapless opponents.

 

so say LSU beating Arkansas say 42-21 should be worth as much as Florida beating Arkansas 21-20? Thats dumb. If you want to cap margin of victory at something, say 21-24 points, thats fine. Margin of victory certainly matters just as it does in baseball.

 

But looking at final scores can be deceiving. I'll use your scores for an example. LSU wins after the score is 21-21 on a last minute TD and they return an offside kick for a TD. Florida is ahead 21-0 and puts in reserves and they give up 2 quick TD's and now they are on their heels and Arkansas scores again on a fumble recovery and then goes for 2 and fails. There are many scenarios like this that effect the final score and make the final score look different than the actuality of what really happened.

 

lawl that's rich.... judging by Saturday's performance, Urban Meyer wouldn't put the reserves in until the score was 210-0.

 

Did he really keep them (starters) in that long against Tennessee?

[Derwood]

comparing Hawaii's SOS to Penn State's is completely laughable

[Derwood]

and if we're going to talk about how "the beauty of CFB is that every game counts" then yes, we don't include 1 loss teams in the NC game, regardless of the circumstances

[Guest]

should we count baseball victories differently if the team wins by 12 instead of by 1?

 

Why are you talking about baseball?

 

Because LoK used a baseball example. One team at 20-15 and another at 18-17.

 

But baseball plays 162 games and has 3 rounds of playoffs.

 

You can use quite a few things to determine whether an 18-17 team is better than a 20-15 team. One team (20-15) has beaten up on the Devil Rays while the other has been playing the Yankees and Red Sox (18-17). You can consider how the pitching has done, the hitting, etc. You add all that up and can determine that 25% of the way, one team might be 2 games behind but should make up that ground.

 

The same can be said for a 10-2 team in CFB vs. a 12-0 team. Some teams play Florida Atlantic, others play Nebraska. Blowing out Nebraska in Lincoln tells me a lot about a team. It's up to the coach to keep players out in blowouts, but dominating another team should be worth something.

[Guest]

and if we're going to talk about how "the beauty of CFB is that every game counts" then yes, we don't include 1 loss teams in the NC game, regardless of the circumstances

 

You're failing to grasph what LoK says.

[Exile on Waveland]

comparing Hawaii's SOS to Penn State's is completely laughable

 

I did no such thing. That's why, in my post, you can clearly read that I stated Penn State's schedule would be much more difficult.

[Exile on Waveland]

and if we're going to talk about how "the beauty of CFB is that every game counts" then yes, we don't include 1 loss teams in the NC game, regardless of the circumstances

 

That's nonsensical propaganda for those that don't want a tournament. It has no bearing in this, or any, logical discussion.