Trade Lee Now

[USSoccer]

So you don't trust Hendry to do a firesale but you trust him to build a winner by next year or 2009? Given his history and the current ownership status, I am not too confident with that.

 

I guess where we disagree is that I don't see this team winning before Lee and Ramirez drop off in production. Therefore, their greater value is to acquire players for a future dominant team.

 

I trust Hendry to trade the expendable parts. I'm not thrilled he would be the guy picking who we would trade Z, Barrett and Murton for, but I'd live with it. I don't want him anywhere near this organization after this November.

 

That is where we disagree. I think this team is better than what they've shown themselves to be this season. Given the crapfest that is the NL Central, I see no reason that they can't contend while Lee and Aramis are still formidable.

[Guest]

Who's done that anywhere?? I was merely correcting your inaccurate statement. If you're going to get up on your high horse about what horrible fans people are for not wanting to trade Lee, you might want to get your facts right about how horrible the team has been.

 

I never said anyone was a horrible fan for not wanting to trade Lee. That's ridiculous. In fact, everyone who has engaged in intelligent debate has gotten a thoughtful answer.

 

I don't even know what facts you are referring to. My guess is the twice in fifty years which is unrelated to how often the cubs have gone to the playoffs. I'm referring to how often teams with less than 90 wins have won the world series.

[Guest]

So you don't trust Hendry to do a firesale but you trust him to build a winner by next year or 2009? Given his history and the current ownership status, I am not too confident with that.

 

I guess where we disagree is that I don't see this team winning before Lee and Ramirez drop off in production. Therefore, their greater value is to acquire players for a future dominant team.

 

I trust Hendry to trade the expendable parts. I'm not thrilled he would be the guy picking who we would trade Z, Barrett and Murton for, but I'd live with it. I don't want him anywhere near this organization after this November.

 

That is where we disagree. I think this team is better than what they've shown themselves to be this season. Given the crapfest that is the NL Central, I see no reason that they can't contend while Lee and Aramis are still formidable.

 

well, I hope that's true but I am not confident at all. We'll see at the end of this week where they stand. I'm quite concerned about Lee's wrist and his lack of homeruns this year. Naturally he's hit a couple since I started this thread. Still, the fact remains that this is a great time to leverage his value as a 1b.

 

Truth is, very few teams have ever won a mediocre division with a mediocre record and gone on to win the world series. I don't see this team as likely to ever accomplish more than that and thus I am not thrilled about the roster composition.

[soccer10k]

The fact that you don't think trading Lee will make the Cubs better is obscenely shortsighted.

 

It could make the Cubs better as long as Hendry doesn't get crap prospect or expensive arthritic crap in return for him. Could being the key word.

[rchap24]

I'm not trading DLee for anything less than enough to overhaul our entire roster with top prospects.

 

Agreed.

 

Agreed and you(Stichface) claiming that Dlee is past is prime is incorrect hes 32 its not like hes 40. I think you are also forgetting that hes the best fielding first baseman in the major leagues.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm not trading DLee for anything less than enough to overhaul our entire roster with top prospects.

 

Agreed.

 

Agreed and you(Stichface) claiming that Dlee is past is prime is incorrect hes 32 its not like hes 40. I think you are also forgetting that hes the best fielding first baseman in the major leagues.

 

26-28 is a players' prime years, generally speaking. Once you hit your early 30's you are getting past your prime.

 

 

I don't really know what it means to overhaul the entire roster. Obviously I wouldn't need 25 guys in return for him. I'm not all that interested in dealing him, but I wouldn't complain if they got 3-4 really solid pieces.

[rchap24]

I'm not trading DLee for anything less than enough to overhaul our entire roster with top prospects.

 

Agreed.

 

Agreed and you(Stichface) claiming that Dlee is past is prime is incorrect hes 32 its not like hes 40. I think you are also forgetting that hes the best fielding first baseman in the major leagues.

 

26-28 is a players' prime years, generally speaking. Once you hit your early 30's you are getting past your prime.

 

 

I don't really know what it means to overhaul the entire roster. Obviously I wouldn't need 25 guys in return for him. I'm not all that interested in dealing him, but I wouldn't complain if they got 3-4 really solid pieces.

 

Well yeah I understand that I was just trying to prove to stichface that hes 32 its not like hes just gonna drop off and be horrible. He had an amazing year in 2005, but if he drops and becomes Dlee pre-cubs I wont mind he still an above average 1st baseman hitting wise and is also the best fielder at that position. On another note though I agree with you I wouldnt trade him unless we got some great players in return no a couple prospects

[jersey cubs fan]

Well yeah I understand that I was just trying to prove to stichface that hes 32 its not like hes just gonna drop off and be horrible. He had an amazing year in 2005, but if he drops and becomes Dlee pre-cubs I wont mind he still an above average 1st baseman hitting wise and is also the best fielder at that position. On another note though I agree with you I wouldnt trade him unless we got some great players in return no a couple prospects

 

If he were to return to pre-Cubs DLee, you better hope he's traded. That was unimpressive second rate production for a first baseman.

[rchap24]

Well yeah I understand that I was just trying to prove to stichface that hes 32 its not like hes just gonna drop off and be horrible. He had an amazing year in 2005, but if he drops and becomes Dlee pre-cubs I wont mind he still an above average 1st baseman hitting wise and is also the best fielder at that position. On another note though I agree with you I wouldnt trade him unless we got some great players in return no a couple prospects

 

If he were to return to pre-Cubs DLee, you better hope he's traded. That was unimpressive second rate production for a first baseman.

 

I might be mistaken wasn't he a .280 25-30hrs and 90ish RBI guy, I could be wrong, but thats not a second rate production first baseman. 1st base isnt a very deep position and thats those are above average numbers.

[Soriano12]

Well yeah I understand that I was just trying to prove to stichface that hes 32 its not like hes just gonna drop off and be horrible. He had an amazing year in 2005, but if he drops and becomes Dlee pre-cubs I wont mind he still an above average 1st baseman hitting wise and is also the best fielder at that position. On another note though I agree with you I wouldnt trade him unless we got some great players in return no a couple prospects

 

If he were to return to pre-Cubs DLee, you better hope he's traded. That was unimpressive second rate production for a first baseman.

 

Saying he was 2nd rate before the Cubs is a stretch.

[NCCubFan]

Well yeah I understand that I was just trying to prove to stichface that hes 32 its not like hes just gonna drop off and be horrible. He had an amazing year in 2005, but if he drops and becomes Dlee pre-cubs I wont mind he still an above average 1st baseman hitting wise and is also the best fielder at that position. On another note though I agree with you I wouldnt trade him unless we got some great players in return no a couple prospects

 

If he were to return to pre-Cubs DLee, you better hope he's traded. That was unimpressive second rate production for a first baseman.

 

I might be mistaken wasn't he a .280 25-30hrs and 90ish RBI guy, I could be wrong, but thats not a second rate production first baseman. 1st base isnt a very deep position and thats those are above average numbers.

Until 2003 it was more like 70--85 RBI, and a couple of years he was closer to .270 than .280. His first couple of years he was outright bad (.233 in 1998, .206 in 1999).

[rchap24]

Well yeah I understand that I was just trying to prove to stichface that hes 32 its not like hes just gonna drop off and be horrible. He had an amazing year in 2005, but if he drops and becomes Dlee pre-cubs I wont mind he still an above average 1st baseman hitting wise and is also the best fielder at that position. On another note though I agree with you I wouldnt trade him unless we got some great players in return no a couple prospects

 

If he were to return to pre-Cubs DLee, you better hope he's traded. That was unimpressive second rate production for a first baseman.

 

Saying he was 2nd rate before the Cubs is a stretch.

 

Thank you! he wasnt one of the best, but he still was above average which ill take!

[jersey cubs fan]

Well yeah I understand that I was just trying to prove to stichface that hes 32 its not like hes just gonna drop off and be horrible. He had an amazing year in 2005, but if he drops and becomes Dlee pre-cubs I wont mind he still an above average 1st baseman hitting wise and is also the best fielder at that position. On another note though I agree with you I wouldnt trade him unless we got some great players in return no a couple prospects

 

If he were to return to pre-Cubs DLee, you better hope he's traded. That was unimpressive second rate production for a first baseman.

 

I might be mistaken wasn't he a .280 25-30hrs and 90ish RBI guy, I could be wrong, but thats not a second rate production first baseman. 1st base isnt a very deep position and thats those are above average numbers.

 

First off, BA/HR/RBI isn't a good way to describe somebody's production. Second, he was a 820-880 OPS guy before 2005, ranking anywhere from the 20's to as high as 9th for MLB 1st baseman, and a good 200 OPS points off the leaders. He was 2nd tier at a very deep position. The Cubs can't afford to get that little production out of such a highly compensated player, especially if you combine him with Soriano.

[jersey cubs fan]

Well yeah I understand that I was just trying to prove to stichface that hes 32 its not like hes just gonna drop off and be horrible. He had an amazing year in 2005, but if he drops and becomes Dlee pre-cubs I wont mind he still an above average 1st baseman hitting wise and is also the best fielder at that position. On another note though I agree with you I wouldnt trade him unless we got some great players in return no a couple prospects

 

If he were to return to pre-Cubs DLee, you better hope he's traded. That was unimpressive second rate production for a first baseman.

 

Saying he was 2nd rate before the Cubs is a stretch.

 

Saying he was anything better than 2nd rate is just plain wrong.

Edited June 4, 2007 by jersey cubs fan

[jersey cubs fan]

Well yeah I understand that I was just trying to prove to stichface that hes 32 its not like hes just gonna drop off and be horrible. He had an amazing year in 2005, but if he drops and becomes Dlee pre-cubs I wont mind he still an above average 1st baseman hitting wise and is also the best fielder at that position. On another note though I agree with you I wouldnt trade him unless we got some great players in return no a couple prospects

 

If he were to return to pre-Cubs DLee, you better hope he's traded. That was unimpressive second rate production for a first baseman.

 

Saying he was 2nd rate before the Cubs is a stretch.

 

Thank you! he wasnt one of the best, but he still was above average which ill take!

 

Not being one of the best, but still above average is pretty much what 2nd rate means. Not top tier. Far from elite. 2nd rate.

[Soriano12]

Well yeah I understand that I was just trying to prove to stichface that hes 32 its not like hes just gonna drop off and be horrible. He had an amazing year in 2005, but if he drops and becomes Dlee pre-cubs I wont mind he still an above average 1st baseman hitting wise and is also the best fielder at that position. On another note though I agree with you I wouldnt trade him unless we got some great players in return no a couple prospects

 

If he were to return to pre-Cubs DLee, you better hope he's traded. That was unimpressive second rate production for a first baseman.

 

Saying he was 2nd rate before the Cubs is a stretch.

 

Saying he was anything better than 2nd rate is just plain wrong.

 

To say that a guy that who put up OPS near 900 in a pitchers paradise consistently, is 2nd rate...well that is just wrong.

[jersey cubs fan]

To say that a guy that who put up OPS near 900 in a pitchers paradise consistently, is 2nd rate...well that is just wrong.

 

2nd rate among first baseman. Ranking anywhere from 20-9 among qualified 1B in OPS. 200 OPS points off the leaders. That is 2nd rate. You're far too generous if you think that's an elite 1B.

[Soriano12]

Ranking in the top 3rd at a position is 2nd rate? though crowd. ProPlayer Stadium killed his SLG% otherwise he probably would have ranked top 5.

[rchap24]

To say that a guy that who put up OPS near 900 in a pitchers paradise consistently, is 2nd rate...well that is just wrong.

 

2nd rate among first baseman. Ranking anywhere from 20-9 among qualified 1B in OPS. 200 OPS points off the leaders. That is 2nd rate. You're far too generous if you think that's an elite 1B.

 

Defense matters to bud!

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Selig?

[jersey cubs fan]

Ranking in the top 3rd at a position is 2nd rate? though crowd. ProPlayer Stadium killed his SLG% otherwise he probably would have ranked top 5.

 

If you are playing a position with as many big producers as 1B has, then yes. Every position has its elite, its second tier, then the mediocre and space fillers types. I think it's blatantly obvious Lee was not an elite 1B prior to 2005. To argue otherwise is just laughable. Why get so offended by somebody pointing out the truth?

 

In 2004, Lee was the 9th ranked 1B in OPS. Omar Infante was the 9th ranked SS. Are you offended if somebody says Omar wasn't elite? Raul Ibanez was the 9th ranked LF, Shawn Green was the 9th ranked RF. These guys weren't elite were they?

[abuck1220]

To say that a guy that who put up OPS near 900 in a pitchers paradise consistently, is 2nd rate...well that is just wrong.

 

2nd rate among first baseman. Ranking anywhere from 20-9 among qualified 1B in OPS. 200 OPS points off the leaders. That is 2nd rate. You're far too generous if you think that's an elite 1B.

 

Defense matters to bud!

 

defense at 1b doesn't matter that much.

 

bud.

[Soriano12]

Ranking in the top 3rd at a position is 2nd rate? though crowd. ProPlayer Stadium killed his SLG% otherwise he probably would have ranked top 5.

 

If you are playing a position with as many big producers as 1B has, then yes. Every position has its elite, its second tier, then the mediocre and space fillers types. I think it's blatantly obvious Lee was not an elite 1B prior to 2005. To argue otherwise is just laughable. Why get so offended by somebody pointing out the truth?

In 2004, Lee was the 9th ranked 1B in OPS. Omar Infante was the 9th ranked SS. Are you offended if somebody says Omar wasn't elite? Raul Ibanez was the 9th ranked LF, Shawn Green was the 9th ranked RF. These guys weren't elite were they?

 

 

I'm Derrek's agent........

[rchap24]

To say that a guy that who put up OPS near 900 in a pitchers paradise consistently, is 2nd rate...well that is just wrong.

 

2nd rate among first baseman. Ranking anywhere from 20-9 among qualified 1B in OPS. 200 OPS points off the leaders. That is 2nd rate. You're far too generous if you think that's an elite 1B.

 

Defense matters to bud!

 

defense at 1b doesn't matter that much.

 

bud.

 

Ha ok how so?

[abuck1220]

To say that a guy that who put up OPS near 900 in a pitchers paradise consistently, is 2nd rate...well that is just wrong.

 

2nd rate among first baseman. Ranking anywhere from 20-9 among qualified 1B in OPS. 200 OPS points off the leaders. That is 2nd rate. You're far too generous if you think that's an elite 1B.

 

Defense matters to bud!

 

defense at 1b doesn't matter that much.

 

bud.

 

Ha ok how so?

 

if it's that important, why is it the place to put fat, unathletic guys who don't have another position? it's clearly the easiest defensive position to play.