Gammons on the Cubs: "Best is yet to come"

[Ding Dong Johnson]

And if you take out those 2 starts, you should also take out his 2 best starts.

 

There wouldn't be a point to taking out his best starts, because what you really want is a guy who consistently goes out there and puts up quality starts. I don't know that Marquis fits that description, but I find it reasonable to remove a few real stinkers and leaving his best starts in there as an evaluation tool.

 

To look at it from an extreme, a pitcher who shuts out his opponent 30 times in a season, but has 5 starts where he gives up 30 runs each is actually a pretty valuable pitcher, even if his ERA is going to be way up there because of those 5 starts.

 

Why exclude his 5 best starts if you are

just attempting to see what his body of work looks like if you exclude a small handful of really bad games?

 

Pitchers are going to have really bad games that are outside their norm, but they're also going to have really good games as well. If you want to exclude the 2 worst performances as some sort of an aberration, then the 2 best should be considered the same.

[cubfan]

I think the main point is, if Marquis had pitched at any other time other than a day after the bullpen had been over used, he would have been pulled from the game after a few innings and never have allowed all those runs to score. The reason it should be treated as an outlier is not because he got shelled. It is because an out of the ordinary accurance the day before allowed him to give up a larger than normal amount of runs because he was left in the game longer than any pitcher normally would have had to be. He took one for the team twice and it had a negative effect on his ERA.

I haven't looked close at the games and if he gave up all the runs in the first but pitched 4 scoreless innings after then the above would not apply.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think the main point is, if Marquis had pitched at any other time other than a day after the bullpen had been over used, he would have been pulled from the game after a few innings and never have allowed all those runs to score. The reason it should be treated as an outlier is not because he got shelled. It is because an out of the ordinary accurance the day before allowed him to give up a larger than normal amount of runs because he was left in the game longer than any pitcher normally would have had to be. He took one for the team twice and it had a negative effect on his ERA.

I haven't looked close at the games and if he gave up all the runs in the first but pitched 4 scoreless innings after then the above would not apply.

 

His ERA went from terrible to awful with those starts. There's no point in taking them out.

[UBlink]

 

His ERA went from terrible to awful with those starts. There's no point in taking them out.

 

Since when is awful worse than terrible?

[soccer10k]

And if you take out those 2 starts, you should also take out his 2 best starts.

 

There wouldn't be a point to taking out his best starts, because what you really want is a guy who consistently goes out there and puts up quality starts. I don't know that Marquis fits that description, but I find it reasonable to remove a few real stinkers and leaving his best starts in there as an evaluation tool.

 

To look at it from an extreme, a pitcher who shuts out his opponent 30 times in a season, but has 5 starts where he gives up 30 runs each is actually a pretty valuable pitcher, even if his ERA is going to be way up there because of those 5 starts.

 

Why exclude his 5 best starts if you are

just attempting to see what his body of work looks like if you exclude a small handful of really bad games?

 

Pitchers are going to have really bad games that are outside their norm, but they're also going to have really good games as well. If you want to exclude the 2 worst performances as some sort of an aberration, then the 2 best should be considered the same.

 

It's not very often that a pitcher allows 12 ER in a game and it's even more rare that he has a performance like that twice in a season. This is beyond an aberration. That being said, I wasn't trying to justify Marquis' contract or say that without those two starts he was a good pitcher. I was simply showing how much those two starts affected his ERA for the season. His ERA jumps by 0.69 just by him giving up 5 runs in those games.

 

EDIT: His 2006 season was flat out bad no matter which way you look at it.

[A New Era]

So after we take out his two worst starts his ERA is still over 5 which is still terrible for someone that is making over league minimum.

 

It's great that Marquis has pitched well. Hopefully he will continue to do so. But I don't blame anyone for being pessimistic about Marquis future based on his body of work in the ML.

 

You also have to look at the couple of first decent full years he's had with clubs. I don't blame them for being negative. But I do blame them if they say there was ABSOLUTELY no chance he would be any better than a VERY BAD pitcher. And we had alot of that this off-season, after the signing. .

[cubfan]

I think the main point is, if Marquis had pitched at any other time other than a day after the bullpen had been over used, he would have been pulled from the game after a few innings and never have allowed all those runs to score. The reason it should be treated as an outlier is not because he got shelled. It is because an out of the ordinary accurance the day before allowed him to give up a larger than normal amount of runs because he was left in the game longer than any pitcher normally would have had to be. He took one for the team twice and it had a negative effect on his ERA.

I haven't looked close at the games and if he gave up all the runs in the first but pitched 4 scoreless innings after then the above would not apply.

 

His ERA went from terrible to awful with those starts. There's no point in taking them out.

 

I didn't say his ERA went from bad to good. I was just saying why taking those two bad starts out with out taking out his two best could be justified.

[Soul]

If last night was Gammons' idea of "the best" that "is to come," I think we're in trouble.

 

15 innings. How much longer do you have to keep your ballclub in the damn game before someone gets a big hit? Christ!!! :evil: :evil:

[David]

If last night was Gammons' idea of "the best" that "is to come," I think we're in trouble.

 

15 innings. How much longer do you have to keep your ballclub in the damn game before someone gets a big hit? Christ!!! :evil: :evil:

 

One loss and all the good feelings generated over the past week and a half are gone, huh? LOL

[Soriano12]

If last night was Gammons' idea of "the best" that "is to come," I think we're in trouble.

 

15 innings. How much longer do you have to keep your ballclub in the damn game before someone gets a big hit? Christ!!! :evil: :evil:

 

One loss and all the good feelings generated over the past week and a half are gone, huh? LOL

 

I don't know if was the loss itself last night, or the way we lost. The bottom of the 8th was some of the worst baseball I have ever seen in my life.

[David]

If last night was Gammons' idea of "the best" that "is to come," I think we're in trouble.

 

15 innings. How much longer do you have to keep your ballclub in the damn game before someone gets a big hit? Christ!!! :evil: :evil:

 

One loss and all the good feelings generated over the past week and a half are gone, huh? LOL

 

I don't know if was the loss itself last night, or the way we lost. The bottom of the 8th was some of the worst baseball I have ever seen in my life.

 

Even the very best teams in the league will lose games looking awful...and the worst teams will look great in some games. It's inevitable with a 162 game schedule and the nature of the game.

 

Last night's game doesn't tell me anything I didn't know about the team before the night began.

[jersey cubs fan]

If last night was Gammons' idea of "the best" that "is to come," I think we're in trouble.

 

15 innings. How much longer do you have to keep your ballclub in the damn game before someone gets a big hit? Christ!!! :evil: :evil:

 

One loss and all the good feelings generated over the past week and a half are gone, huh? LOL

 

I don't know if was the loss itself last night, or the way we lost. The bottom of the 8th was some of the worst baseball I have ever seen in my life.

 

Even the very best teams in the league will lose games looking awful...and the worst teams will look great in some games. It's inevitable with a 162 game schedule and the nature of the game.

 

Last night's game doesn't tell me anything I didn't know about the team before the night began.

 

I agree. And I disagree that the 8th inning was some of the worst baseball people have ever seen. Come on. The worst inning you could see is 3 straight weak ground balls to the pitcher on 1 pitch each. The Cubs threatened but didn't score. Big deal. I've seen much worse. At least they threatened, for one. And two, you have a guy like Murton who is not accustomed to pinch hitting come up and hit a pop up that doesn't get the job done. That's part of the problem of the "just hit it in the air" mentality of playing for sac flies, especially when you have a guy that doesn't hit a lot of deep flies. The pitcher got ahead in the count, but Murton battled, and in trying to hit it in the air he got a fraction of an inch under the ball. It wasn't an awful at bat. It was a bad result, but come on already with the melodrama. Then Barrett is walked and Jones grounds out against a lefty. Well, Jones never hits lefties. Was anybody really surprised. He got tied up.

 

Pittsburgh left many more people on base yesterday. The 8th inning was just an inning that nobody would remember if they made the save. It was an annoying loss since it was the first game in a home series against a bad team and brought them back to .500. But there's no reason for all the angst about the so-called worst baseball people have ever seen.

[imb]

If last night was Gammons' idea of "the best" that "is to come," I think we're in trouble.

 

15 innings. How much longer do you have to keep your ballclub in the damn game before someone gets a big hit? Christ!!! :evil: :evil:

 

One loss and all the good feelings generated over the past week and a half are gone, huh? LOL

 

I don't know if was the loss itself last night, or the way we lost. The bottom of the 8th was some of the worst baseball I have ever seen in my life.

 

Even the very best teams in the league will lose games looking awful...and the worst teams will look great in some games. It's inevitable with a 162 game schedule and the nature of the game.

 

Last night's game doesn't tell me anything I didn't know about the team before the night began.

 

Thank god for you.

[Soul]

If last night was Gammons' idea of "the best" that "is to come," I think we're in trouble.

 

15 innings. How much longer do you have to keep your ballclub in the damn game before someone gets a big hit? Christ!!! :evil: :evil:

 

One loss and all the good feelings generated over the past week and a half are gone, huh? LOL

 

I don't know if was the loss itself last night, or the way we lost. The bottom of the 8th was some of the worst baseball I have ever seen in my life.

 

Even the very best teams in the league will lose games looking awful...and the worst teams will look great in some games. It's inevitable with a 162 game schedule and the nature of the game.

 

Last night's game doesn't tell me anything I didn't know about the team before the night began.

 

I agree. And I disagree that the 8th inning was some of the worst baseball people have ever seen. Come on. The worst inning you could see is 3 straight weak ground balls to the pitcher on 1 pitch each. The Cubs threatened but didn't score. Big deal. I've seen much worse. At least they threatened, for one. And two, you have a guy like Murton who is not accustomed to pinch hitting come up and hit a pop up that doesn't get the job done. That's part of the problem of the "just hit it in the air" mentality of playing for sac flies, especially when you have a guy that doesn't hit a lot of deep flies. The pitcher got ahead in the count, but Murton battled, and in trying to hit it in the air he got a fraction of an inch under the ball. It wasn't an awful at bat. It was a bad result, but come on already with the melodrama. Then Barrett is walked and Jones grounds out against a lefty. Well, Jones never hits lefties. Was anybody really surprised. He got tied up.

 

Pittsburgh left many more people on base yesterday. The 8th inning was just an inning that nobody would remember if they made the save. It was an annoying loss since it was the first game in a home series against a bad team and brought them back to .500. But there's no reason for all the angst about the so-called worst baseball people have ever seen.

 

Watching that game last night was like pounding nails into 2 X 4's with your head.

 

God it was awful. It's like someone flips a switch and we hit like 2 year olds for what seems like days. Then it flips again and we're world beaters for an inning or two.

 

I feel like a piece of stretched taffy watching this ballclub sometimes.

[cubfan1955]

Watching that game last night was like pounding nails into 2 X 4's with your head.

 

God it was awful. It's like someone flips a switch and we hit like 2 year olds for what seems like days. Then it flips again and we're world beaters for an inning or two.

 

I feel like a piece of stretched taffy watching this ballclub sometimes.

Yes but lately it's been like 2 steps forward, one step back as opposed to last year where it was one step forward, 13 steps back. :D

 

What is it though with the bats falling asleep as games progress? It always seems as if the hitters just stop after about the 5th inning.

[Soul]

Watching that game last night was like pounding nails into 2 X 4's with your head.

 

God it was awful. It's like someone flips a switch and we hit like 2 year olds for what seems like days. Then it flips again and we're world beaters for an inning or two.

 

I feel like a piece of stretched taffy watching this ballclub sometimes.

Yes but lately it's been like 2 steps forward, one step back as opposed to last year where it was one step forward, 13 steps back. :D

 

What is it though with the bats falling asleep as games progress? It always seems as if the hitters just stop after about the 5th inning.

 

Yeah. It's like each bat comes with a little gas tank, and when it runs out, *poof* no more big hits :D

[moorecg]

Watching that game last night was like pounding nails into 2 X 4's with your head.

 

God it was awful. It's like someone flips a switch and we hit like 2 year olds for what seems like days. Then it flips again and we're world beaters for an inning or two.

 

I feel like a piece of stretched taffy watching this ballclub sometimes.

Yes but lately it's been like 2 steps forward, one step back as opposed to last year where it was one step forward, 13 steps back. :D

 

What is it though with the bats falling asleep as games progress? It always seems as if the hitters just stop after about the 5th inning.

 

Yeah. It's like each bat comes with a little gas tank, and when it runs out, *poof* no more big hits :D

 

It won't be the season one way or the other...but coming back and winning today would mean quite a bit to me...winning the series would mean a lot.

[Sammy Sofa]

If last night was Gammons' idea of "the best" that "is to come," I think we're in trouble.

 

15 innings. How much longer do you have to keep your ballclub in the damn game before someone gets a big hit? Christ!!! :evil: :evil:

 

One loss and all the good feelings generated over the past week and a half are gone, huh? LOL

 

I don't know if was the loss itself last night, or the way we lost. The bottom of the 8th was some of the worst baseball I have ever seen in my life.

 

Even the very best teams in the league will lose games looking awful...and the worst teams will look great in some games. It's inevitable with a 162 game schedule and the nature of the game.

 

Last night's game doesn't tell me anything I didn't know about the team before the night began.

 

I agree. And I disagree that the 8th inning was some of the worst baseball people have ever seen. Come on. The worst inning you could see is 3 straight weak ground balls to the pitcher on 1 pitch each. The Cubs threatened but didn't score. Big deal. I've seen much worse. At least they threatened, for one. And two, you have a guy like Murton who is not accustomed to pinch hitting come up and hit a pop up that doesn't get the job done. That's part of the problem of the "just hit it in the air" mentality of playing for sac flies, especially when you have a guy that doesn't hit a lot of deep flies. The pitcher got ahead in the count, but Murton battled, and in trying to hit it in the air he got a fraction of an inch under the ball. It wasn't an awful at bat. It was a bad result, but come on already with the melodrama. Then Barrett is walked and Jones grounds out against a lefty. Well, Jones never hits lefties. Was anybody really surprised. He got tied up.

 

Pittsburgh left many more people on base yesterday. The 8th inning was just an inning that nobody would remember if they made the save. It was an annoying loss since it was the first game in a home series against a bad team and brought them back to .500. But there's no reason for all the angst about the so-called worst baseball people have ever seen.

 

Watching that game last night was like pounding nails into 2 X 4's with your head.

 

God it was awful. It's like someone flips a switch and we hit like 2 year olds for what seems like days. Then it flips again and we're world beaters for an inning or two.

 

I feel like a piece of stretched taffy watching this ballclub sometimes.

 

Out of curiosity, did you actually read the post that you replied to, or was it just happy coincidence that we got to see both sides of the coinc so perfectly illustrated?

[David]

If last night was Gammons' idea of "the best" that "is to come," I think we're in trouble.

 

15 innings. How much longer do you have to keep your ballclub in the damn game before someone gets a big hit? Christ!!! :evil: :evil:

 

One loss and all the good feelings generated over the past week and a half are gone, huh? LOL

 

I don't know if was the loss itself last night, or the way we lost. The bottom of the 8th was some of the worst baseball I have ever seen in my life.

 

Even the very best teams in the league will lose games looking awful...and the worst teams will look great in some games. It's inevitable with a 162 game schedule and the nature of the game.

 

Last night's game doesn't tell me anything I didn't know about the team before the night began.

 

Thank god for you.

 

I tell myself that everyday.