Prior to have exploratory arthroscopic shoulder surgery

[davearm]

I have to say that I was 100% wrong! i didn't think they find anything but I now i have to say that if he went on with this junk in his shoulder..he threw with a lot of pain. having been through rotator cuff surgery..I don't know how the cobs staff missed it. You can actually throw pretty well with it but it hurts like heck. when he first comes back he won't throw as well as he did injured. it will take a while and a lot of work.

That's just the thing... Prior claimed all spring that his arm felt fine and he had no pain or discomfort throwing.

 

IMO that's one really mystifying piece of this story.

 

Was he lying, in hopes of sneaking onto the active roster to keep his service time accruing?

 

Is there any chance that he's actually so tough that something that would "hurt like heck" for most guys didn't bother him? How ironic would that be...

[cheapseats]

Well, at least we'll be able to move on now. There won't be that "maybe he can come back and pitch" for this year. I feel bad for the kid. He had such a promising career, and now he might never get back to what he was. It's a sad story.

 

It is really a shame...And I do believe it came from that collision with Giles. I think it all stems from that.

 

Nope.

 

Most of the damage indicates a slow wearing rather than any significant trauma, which puts the blame more on Dusty Baker than anyone else, especially Marcus Giles. I've seen some blindly suggesting that the Bankart lesion was the result of that 2003 collision but if that had been the case, the amount of damage occurring to the ligaments would be sufficiently significant to cause instability that would prevent return to activity for an extended period of time—extended here meaning far more than the three starts he missed. The reported outcome after the collision was a Grade II acromioclavicular sprain. Since the AC sprain involved the acromioclavicular ligament (which basically ties the clavicle and scapula together), there would be very little likelihood that this injury could have involved his labrum.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6151

 

In other words, yes, we can blame Dusty.

[C.C.]

Well, at least we'll be able to move on now. There won't be that "maybe he can come back and pitch" for this year. I feel bad for the kid. He had such a promising career, and now he might never get back to what he was. It's a sad story.

 

It is really a shame...And I do believe it came from that collision with Giles. I think it all stems from that.

 

Nope.

 

Most of the damage indicates a slow wearing rather than any significant trauma, which puts the blame more on Dusty Baker than anyone else, especially Marcus Giles. I've seen some blindly suggesting that the Bankart lesion was the result of that 2003 collision but if that had been the case, the amount of damage occurring to the ligaments would be sufficiently significant to cause instability that would prevent return to activity for an extended period of time—extended here meaning far more than the three starts he missed. The reported outcome after the collision was a Grade II acromioclavicular sprain. Since the AC sprain involved the acromioclavicular ligament (which basically ties the clavicle and scapula together), there would be very little likelihood that this injury could have involved his labrum.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6151

 

In other words, yes, we can blame Dusty.

 

Ahh....Interesting!

[Banedon]

I have to say that I was 100% wrong! i didn't think they find anything but I now i have to say that if he went on with this junk in his shoulder..he threw with a lot of pain. having been through rotator cuff surgery..I don't know how the cobs staff missed it. You can actually throw pretty well with it but it hurts like heck. when he first comes back he won't throw as well as he did injured. it will take a while and a lot of work.

That's just the thing... Prior claimed all spring that his arm felt fine and he had no pain or discomfort throwing.

 

IMO that's one really mystifying piece of this story.

 

Was he lying, in hopes of sneaking onto the active roster to keep his service time accruing?

 

Is there any chance that he's actually so tough that something that would "hurt like heck" for most guys didn't bother him? How ironic would that be...

 

My guess is that people kept telling him there was nothing wrong and he kept hearing fans and media thinking he was a wuss. He may have just been trying to pitch through it.

[cheapseats]

Well, at least we'll be able to move on now. There won't be that "maybe he can come back and pitch" for this year. I feel bad for the kid. He had such a promising career, and now he might never get back to what he was. It's a sad story.

 

It is really a shame...And I do believe it came from that collision with Giles. I think it all stems from that.

 

Nope.

 

Most of the damage indicates a slow wearing rather than any significant trauma, which puts the blame more on Dusty Baker than anyone else, especially Marcus Giles. I've seen some blindly suggesting that the Bankart lesion was the result of that 2003 collision but if that had been the case, the amount of damage occurring to the ligaments would be sufficiently significant to cause instability that would prevent return to activity for an extended period of time—extended here meaning far more than the three starts he missed. The reported outcome after the collision was a Grade II acromioclavicular sprain. Since the AC sprain involved the acromioclavicular ligament (which basically ties the clavicle and scapula together), there would be very little likelihood that this injury could have involved his labrum.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6151

 

In other words, yes, we can blame Dusty.

 

Ahh....Interesting!

 

Yeah, I think it's interesting, too.

 

I've probably never been so interested in someone else's medical history.

[CubinNY]

Well, at least we'll be able to move on now. There won't be that "maybe he can come back and pitch" for this year. I feel bad for the kid. He had such a promising career, and now he might never get back to what he was. It's a sad story.

 

It is really a shame...And I do believe it came from that collision with Giles. I think it all stems from that.

 

Nope.

 

Most of the damage indicates a slow wearing rather than any significant trauma, which puts the blame more on Dusty Baker than anyone else, especially Marcus Giles. I've seen some blindly suggesting that the Bankart lesion was the result of that 2003 collision but if that had been the case, the amount of damage occurring to the ligaments would be sufficiently significant to cause instability that would prevent return to activity for an extended period of time—extended here meaning far more than the three starts he missed. The reported outcome after the collision was a Grade II acromioclavicular sprain. Since the AC sprain involved the acromioclavicular ligament (which basically ties the clavicle and scapula together), there would be very little likelihood that this injury could have involved his labrum.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6151

 

In other words, yes, we can blame Dusty.

 

Ahh....Interesting!

 

Yeah, I think it's interesting, too.

 

I've probably never been so interested in someone else's medical history.

 

My completly unprofessional opinion is that his injuries stem from the second half of 2003 when he pitched on a bad heel and changed his mechanics ever so slightly. Then tried to come back several times with the same sort of issues.

 

Imagine what a wuss he would have been called had he missed the second half of 2003 with a sore heel?

[jersey cubs fan]

I have to say that I was 100% wrong! i didn't think they find anything but I now i have to say that if he went on with this junk in his shoulder..he threw with a lot of pain. having been through rotator cuff surgery..I don't know how the cobs staff missed it. You can actually throw pretty well with it but it hurts like heck. when he first comes back he won't throw as well as he did injured. it will take a while and a lot of work.

That's just the thing... Prior claimed all spring that his arm felt fine and he had no pain or discomfort throwing.

 

IMO that's one really mystifying piece of this story.

 

Was he lying, in hopes of sneaking onto the active roster to keep his service time accruing?

 

Is there any chance that he's actually so tough that something that would "hurt like heck" for most guys didn't bother him? How ironic would that be...

 

Perhaps he had just been pitching in so much pain for so long that he just blocked it out. He's been told for so long that normal pitchers could pitch through the pain he's feeling (Timmy K insinuated this very thing this morning, again). Every old school tough guy in baseball that refuses to believe overuse can negatively affect pitchers is convinced he's a wimp. So maybe he just convinced himself not to have pain.

 

What we do know is he was abused like very few others have been at a very young age, suffered some very real injuries and now needed relatively serious cleanup. The guy was hurt, clearly. It's just too bad this cleanup didn't happen a year ago.

[Chocolate Milk]

Bors and Bernstein still calling Prior a wussy.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Bors and Bernstein still calling Prior a wussy.

 

They are idiots, and it has little to do with calling Prior a wussy.

[jaydee]

is will carroll a doctor?

[woodchip2153]

Well, at least we'll be able to move on now. There won't be that "maybe he can come back and pitch" for this year. I feel bad for the kid. He had such a promising career, and now he might never get back to what he was. It's a sad story.

 

It is really a shame...And I do believe it came from that collision with Giles. I think it all stems from that.

 

Nope.

 

Most of the damage indicates a slow wearing rather than any significant trauma, which puts the blame more on Dusty Baker than anyone else, especially Marcus Giles. I've seen some blindly suggesting that the Bankart lesion was the result of that 2003 collision but if that had been the case, the amount of damage occurring to the ligaments would be sufficiently significant to cause instability that would prevent return to activity for an extended period of time—extended here meaning far more than the three starts he missed. The reported outcome after the collision was a Grade II acromioclavicular sprain. Since the AC sprain involved the acromioclavicular ligament (which basically ties the clavicle and scapula together), there would be very little likelihood that this injury could have involved his labrum.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6151

 

In other words, yes, we can blame Dusty.

 

The Cub Reporter has a slightly different take

 

http://mvn.com/mlb-cubs/

[C.C.]

Bors and Bernstein still calling Prior a wussy.

 

Irony?

[cheapseats]

Well, at least we'll be able to move on now. There won't be that "maybe he can come back and pitch" for this year. I feel bad for the kid. He had such a promising career, and now he might never get back to what he was. It's a sad story.

 

It is really a shame...And I do believe it came from that collision with Giles. I think it all stems from that.

 

Nope.

 

Most of the damage indicates a slow wearing rather than any significant trauma, which puts the blame more on Dusty Baker than anyone else, especially Marcus Giles. I've seen some blindly suggesting that the Bankart lesion was the result of that 2003 collision but if that had been the case, the amount of damage occurring to the ligaments would be sufficiently significant to cause instability that would prevent return to activity for an extended period of time—extended here meaning far more than the three starts he missed. The reported outcome after the collision was a Grade II acromioclavicular sprain. Since the AC sprain involved the acromioclavicular ligament (which basically ties the clavicle and scapula together), there would be very little likelihood that this injury could have involved his labrum.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6151

 

In other words, yes, we can blame Dusty.

 

The Cub Reporter has a slightly different take

 

http://mvn.com/mlb-cubs/

 

Thanks for the link. I don't normally visit Cub Reporter.

 

One thing is clear after reading the doctor's comments: Carroll does a good job of explaining medical terminology for laypeople. It's pretty tough to translate medical language (or any profession-specific language) into something that can be understood by the general public.

 

It appears that the doctor thinks that Prior should shoulder some of the responsibility.

 

Of course, when Prior informs the team of discomfort, the Chicago media labels him a wuss...

 

EDIT: The doctor who wrote the piece for Cub Reporter was using Carroll's unfiltered post as a source. Carroll has since posted new information (or rather, more detailed information) in his Under the Knife. The quote I posted earlier is from the UTK column.

Edited April 26, 2007 by cheapseats

[Balsa]

Kevin Goldstein has a great little editorial on the BP blog.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=342

 

Well, they finally figured out what was wrong with Mark Prior’s shoulder . . . everything. While I’ll leave it to Mr. Carroll to explain exactly what happened (with pictures, no less), let’s discuss what happened beforehand. Basically, for the last two years or so, sports radio and print here in Chicago has been filled with inferences that Mark Prior was, for lack of a better term, a wuss. While doctors struggled to find an answer for Prior’s velocity issues, accusations (both direct and indirect) were flying left and right. It’s all in his head, he’s never dealt with adversity, his confidence is shot, he’s overcompensating for the normal soreness that every other pitcher deals with, nothing is really wrong with him, etc.

 

Meanwhile, while spending just as much time off the field as Prior, Kerry Wood got a free pass. See, this Wood guy, he’s a man’s man. He’s from Texas and he talks like one would expect the Marlboro man to and he curses and spits and gets arrested for public urination. He’s a tough guy, see? But no, not Prior. Prior was downright erudite, following in his father’s footsteps by attending Vanderbilt before transferring closer to home at Southern California. Prior actually finished his class work after being drafted and got a degree, a rarity among ballplayers. In interviews, he was calm, collected and thoughtful, if not downright boring. He didn’t have spiked hair or a goatee, he almost looked more fitting in a suit than a baseball uniform. He wasn’t what we expected a baseball player to be as a personality, he wasn’t the kind of guy who would punch you in the shoulder when he greeted you, and therefore he was a wimp.

=D> =D> =D> =D> [/i]

[cheapseats]

is will carroll a doctor?

 

No. He does have inside contacts within the training staffs of most MLB teams (if not all).

 

I'd trust what Carroll has to say about an injury more than I'd trust what that player's team has to say.

 

The above is especially true of the Cubs.

[FergieJ31]

 

In other words, yes, we can blame Dusty.

 

Maybe, but maybe not.

 

I think the real question, which is probably unanswerable, is to what extent was Prior's shoulder injury was inevitable, especially after the collision and the Hawpe ball. (Yes I know it hit near his elbow but Prior might have compensated in his motion due to the elbow.) Would Prior still be hurt now given those two incidents had he been given a normal workload in 2003? And what would "normal" be here -- maybe 5% fewer total innings & pitches? Who knows, but my guess is that he would still be hurt even if the Cubs had a different manager in 2003, all else equal.

 

I'm not about to defend the high early 2003 pitch counts Dusty put Prior through (not to mention Game 2 NLCS), but I think virtually 100% of all major league managers, living and dead, would have ridden him hard down the stretch to get the Cubs into the playoffs, especially with the spotty bullpen they had.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I for one would like to take a moment to wish Mr. Prior the best of luck in his recovery and rehabilitation. About 19 months ago, I went through the process of having my labrum surgically repaired as well as having that looseness fixed. It is an extremely painful and tremendously long process just to get mobility back, and he has to go leaps and bounds past that to get back to how he makes his living.

 

I wish him nothing but the best in the future, whether or not it is with the Cubs.

[Chocolate Milk]

Bors and Bernstein still calling Prior a wussy.

 

I sent them an e-mail with a link to the Will Carroll article and they are talking about it now. They kind of brushed it off saying that many pitchers would have the same thing.

 

I think the Prior is a wuss thing is going to stick around Chicago, unfortunatly.

[USSoccer]

Bors and Bernstein still calling Prior a wussy.

 

They are idiots, and it has little to do with calling Prior a wussy.

 

Boers is an idiot, and Bernstein should know better.

[USSoccer]

Bors and Bernstein still calling Prior a wussy.

 

I sent them an e-mail with a link to the Will Carroll article and they are talking about it now. They kind of brushed it off saying that many pitchers would have the same thing.

 

I think the Prior is a wuss thing is going to stick around Chicago, unfortunatly.

 

Considering that's the same radio station that used Carroll as their little prophet when it came to early reports about Prior last spring, you'd think his article would carry some weight.

[RynoRules]

Questioning his toughness makes no sense, IMO. Questioning whether he is injury prone or overused makes far more sense.

[Chocolate Milk]

Bors and Bernstein still calling Prior a wussy.

 

I sent them an e-mail with a link to the Will Carroll article and they are talking about it now. They kind of brushed it off saying that many pitchers would have the same thing.

 

I think the Prior is a wuss thing is going to stick around Chicago, unfortunatly.

 

Considering that's the same radio station that used Carroll as their little prophet when it came to early reports about Prior last spring, you'd think his article would carry some weight.

 

So you would think.

[cheapseats]

 

In other words, yes, we can blame Dusty.

 

Maybe, but maybe not.

 

I think the real question, which is probably unanswerable, is to what extent was Prior's shoulder injury was inevitable, especially after the collision and the Hawpe ball. (Yes I know it hit near his elbow but Prior might have compensated in his motion due to the elbow.) Would Prior still be hurt now given those two incidents had he been given a normal workload in 2003? And what would "normal" be here -- maybe 5% fewer total innings & pitches? Who knows, but my guess is that he would still be hurt even if the Cubs had a different manager in 2003, all else equal.

 

I'm not about to defend the high early 2003 pitch counts Dusty put Prior through (not to mention Game 2 NLCS), but I think virtually 100% of all major league managers, living and dead, would have ridden him hard down the stretch to get the Cubs into the playoffs, especially with the spotty bullpen they had.

 

Well, it's not that I'm after Dusty's blood, but Carroll's analysis clearly rules out the Giles collision as a significant factor. If you have a reason to disagree with his findings, cool, but it appears that the injury was chronic.

 

Could the Hawpe line drive led to cascade injuries? Sure. But I haven't seen anyone make the case that it altered his mechanics.

 

I hate the "all the other managers would have done it" argument. While it may very well be true, it doesn't justify the action.

 

Plus, Dusty's overuse started well before the stretch run, and often didn't make any sense at all. Why should a 22-year-old starter throw 131 pitches in a 7-0 blowout?

 

Pitchers do get injured regularly, so maybe MP was destined to get hurt, but Dusty was probably the worst possible choice to handle a young pitching staff. And it probably didn't help that, under Baker, the training staff was in constant turnover. Heck, Baker brought in a guy who wasn't even licensed to be a trainer.

[Balsa]

Bors and Bernstein still calling Prior a wussy.

 

I sent them an e-mail with a link to the Will Carroll article and they are talking about it now. They kind of brushed it off saying that many pitchers would have the same thing.

 

I think the Prior is a wuss thing is going to stick around Chicago, unfortunatly.

Send them the Goldstein link. I think he does a great job addressing the issue.

[ToupeeOnFire]

Kevin Goldstein has a great little editorial on the BP blog.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=342

 

 

Meanwhile, while spending just as much time off the field as Prior, Kerry Wood got a free pass. See, this Wood guy, he’s a man’s man. He’s from Texas and he talks like one would expect the Marlboro man to and he curses and spits and gets arrested for public urination. He’s a tough guy, see? But no, not Prior. Prior was downright erudite, following in his father’s footsteps by attending Vanderbilt before transferring closer to home at Southern California. Prior actually finished his class work after being drafted and got a degree, a rarity among ballplayers. In interviews, he was calm, collected and thoughtful, if not downright boring. He didn’t have spiked hair or a goatee, he almost looked more fitting in a suit than a baseball uniform. He wasn’t what we expected a baseball player to be as a personality, he wasn’t the kind of guy who would punch you in the shoulder when he greeted you, and therefore he was a wimp.

=D> =D> =D> =D> [/i]

You know, I'm not sure which I find more annoying...bufoonish idiots who proclaim that "Mark Prior is a wuss" or condescending stat-geeks who project their own sniveling insecurities onto others.