4/21 StLouis (Reyes) @ CUBS (Marquis), 2:55, FOX & XM187

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Um.... Albert is right.

 

 

 

If he was lucky (and he probably should have given up a run or two today) then it's the Cardinals hitters fault. It's not like they hit it hard right at people all day-pretty much every time they got runners on, they either struck out or hit a soft ground ball. So Pujols should be more concerned about that than anything Marquis threw.

 

How many good starts in a row does Marquis have to have before we stop saying "lucky"?

 

98, if he makes as many starts over the next 3 years as he did the last.

[98navigator]

Um.... Albert is right.

 

 

 

No, he isn't right, you don't luck up on a shut out. Marquis pitched well; it's the first time this season that he didn't walk anyone, and he was able to make big pitches when it counted. How is that different from Z pitching out of one of his self induced jams? Pujols can't even make the argument about Pie running down balls in the outfield that might have plated runs (especially when you consider the acrobatic catches that were made against the Cubs yesterday). Good defense is a part of the game... Pujols should just shut up.

[98navigator]

I know this was probably discussed here.. But I was so pissed off when Fox kept showing the Yankees/Red Sox game... And even more when they made their screen 4 times bigger than ours.

 

Oh it was discussed! :evil:

[Drew Doughty]

No, he isn't right, you don't luck up on a shut out.

 

That's not true at all. A pitcher could theoretically allow 27 hits over 9 innings and pick up a shut out. That would be insanely lucky.

 

Marquis pitched well; it's the first time this season that he didn't walk anyone, and he was able to make big pitches when it counted.

 

Okay, I would still rather him not get into the situations that require him to have to make a big pitch.

 

How is that different from Z pitching out of one of his self induced jams?

 

It's not. Who was suggesting otherwise?

 

Pujols can't even make the argument about Pie running down balls in the outfield that might have plated runs (especially when you consider the acrobatic catches that were made against the Cubs yesterday). Good defense is a part of the game... Pujols should just shut up.

 

I don't know what you're getting at here. Good defense is a part of the game, sure. But if you rely on it all afternoon, it means you might be having a lucky day. Reversing the situation, I'm sure you would think a guy like Looper would be lucky had he have pitched the game he did today. You would liekly be complaining that we left runners on all day, etc.

[Fred Hornkohl]

I know this was probably discussed here.. But I was so pissed off when Fox kept showing the Yankees/Red Sox game... And even more when they made their screen 4 times bigger than ours.

 

Oh it was discussed! :evil:

 

Cussed and discussed, you might say. :wink:

[98navigator]

No, he isn't right, you don't luck up on a shut out.

 

That's not true at all. A pitcher could theoretically allow 27 hits over 9 innings and pick up a shut out. That would be insanely lucky.

 

Marquis pitched well; it's the first time this season that he didn't walk anyone, and he was able to make big pitches when it counted.

 

Okay, I would still rather him not get into the situations that require him to have to make a big pitch.

 

How is that different from Z pitching out of one of his self induced jams?

 

It's not. Who was suggesting otherwise?

 

Pujols can't even make the argument about Pie running down balls in the outfield that might have plated runs (especially when you consider the acrobatic catches that were made against the Cubs yesterday). Good defense is a part of the game... Pujols should just shut up.

 

I don't know what you're getting at here. Good defense is a part of the game, sure. But if you rely on it all afternoon, it means you might be having a lucky day. Reversing the situation, I'm sure you would think a guy like Looper would be lucky had he have pitched the game he did today. You would liekly be complaining that we left runners on all day, etc.

 

Marquis pitches to contact, and he isn't a big strikeout pitcher, so he will always rely heavily on his defense. There is nothing wrong with a pitcher leaning on his defense in every start. The Cardinals traditionally play outstanding defense that helps their pitchers win. IMO, it isn't luck for the winner as much as it's lack of execution for the loser.

 

The point I was making about the comparison to Zambrano is, no one says Z is lucky when he gets out of similar jams. If a sinker ball pitcher is able to get a ground ball for an inning ending double play, he's no more lucky than someone who can strikeout the side with the bases loaded. The only difference is that the defense plays a larger role in helping the groundball pitcher.

[98navigator]

Tribune

 

Piniella is 1-1 against Tony La Russa as Cubs manager, while the Cubs are 1,127-1,068 against St. Louis since 1892.

[Fred Hornkohl]

Tribune

 

Piniella is 1-1 against Tony La Russa as Cubs manager, while the Cubs are 1,127-1,068 against St. Louis since 1892.

 

Perspective is everthing, no?

[Drew Doughty]

The point I was making about the comparison to Zambrano is, no one says Z is lucky when he gets out of similar jams. If a sinker ball pitcher is able to get a ground ball for an inning ending double play, he's no more lucky than someone who can strikeout the side with the bases loaded. The only difference is that the defense plays a larger role in helping the groundball pitcher.

 

There is a difference though. The guy that does it with the K is going to be able to do it far more consistently.

 

If Z is frequently getting out of 2 on or bases loaded jams by relying on great defense, then yes, he would be conisidered lucky. When Z is on, he's usually not in those kinds of jams though, so that doesn't really matter.

 

I'm happy with the way Marquis is pitching, but he has zero chance of doing what he did today consistently, especially when he faces an offense better than the one the Cardinals boast.

[98navigator]

Tribune

 

Piniella is 1-1 against Tony La Russa as Cubs manager, while the Cubs are 1,127-1,068 against St. Louis since 1892.

 

Perspective is everthing, no?

 

Absolutely! :D

[A New Era]

The point I was making about the comparison to Zambrano is, no one says Z is lucky when he gets out of similar jams. If a sinker ball pitcher is able to get a ground ball for an inning ending double play, he's no more lucky than someone who can strikeout the side with the bases loaded. The only difference is that the defense plays a larger role in helping the groundball pitcher.

 

There is a difference though. The guy that does it with the K is going to be able to do it far more consistently.

 

If Z is frequently getting out of 2 on or bases loaded jams by relying on great defense, then yes, he would be conisidered lucky. When Z is on, he's usually not in those kinds of jams though, so that doesn't really matter.

 

I'm happy with the way Marquis is pitching, but he has zero chance of doing what he did today consistently, especially when he faces an offense better than the one the Cardinals boast.

 

Well I think even Marquis fans would admit that. He's not going to have this low of an ERA at the end of the season. But I can see him having a significantly better year this year than last.

[98navigator]

The point I was making about the comparison to Zambrano is, no one says Z is lucky when he gets out of similar jams. If a sinker ball pitcher is able to get a ground ball for an inning ending double play, he's no more lucky than someone who can strikeout the side with the bases loaded. The only difference is that the defense plays a larger role in helping the groundball pitcher.

 

There is a difference though. The guy that does it with the K is going to be able to do it far more consistently.

 

If Z is frequently getting out of 2 on or bases loaded jams by relying on great defense, then yes, he would be conisidered lucky. When Z is on, he's usually not in those kinds of jams though, so that doesn't really matter.

 

I'm happy with the way Marquis is pitching, but he has zero chance of doing what he did today consistently, especially when he faces an offense better than the one the Cardinals boast.

 

Z's increasing walk totals have landed him in quite a few jams (and many times his defense has helped him to escape unscathed). Is that luck or making the right pitch at the right time?

 

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that Marquis will go all season with a sub 2.00 ERA but I do think that an improved defense (with Pie in center and a decent infield group) behind him can be the difference between respectability and disaster.

[Drew Doughty]

Z's increasing walk totals have landed him in quite a few jams (and many times his defense has helped him to escape unscathed). Is that luck or making the right pitch at the right time?

 

if Z's walk totals this year would have come with a current marquis-ish ERA, then it would be luck. Z's succeeding and failing when he puts runners on. Marquis, at least today, is only succeeding. And that's not going to happen ofen.

 

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that Marquis will go all season with a sub 2.00 ERA but I do think that an improved defense (with Pie in center and a decent infield group) behind him can be the difference between respectability and disaster.

 

well, that's kind of the point I'm making. If defense is the only thing between disaster and success, then Marquis is lucky.

[98navigator]

well, that's kind of the point I'm making. If defense is the only thing between disaster and success, then Marquis is lucky.

 

I don't see it that way at all. While it's true that a pitcher can't control what happens to a pitch once it's put into play, that doesn't mean that he's lucky if the defense makes the play behind him. It can mean that he's executing his gameplan perfectly. ML defenders are going to make the plays the majority of the time.

 

Luck is tricky and hard to define. What about the pitcher who misses his location and gets the batter to strike out swinging? That's much more luck than allowing your teammates to make routine defensive plays.

 

 

----

 

Marquis didn't walk anyone today.

[BigSlick]

well, that's kind of the point I'm making. If defense is the only thing between disaster and success, then Marquis is lucky.

 

I don't see it that way at all. While it's true that a pitcher can't control what happens to a pitch once it's put into play, that doesn't mean that he's lucky if the defense makes the play behind him. It can mean that he's executing his gameplan perfectly. ML defenders are going to make the plays the majority of the time.

 

Luck is tricky and hard to define. What about the pitcher who misses his location and gets the batter to strike out swinging? That's much more luck than allowing your teammates to make routine defensive plays.

 

 

----

 

Marquis didn't walk anyone today.

 

The point is that pitchers that "pitch to contact" tend to fluctuate wildly in their performance not only due to the defense behind them but because of stadium effects, weather, and pure luck. (Luck constitutes most of it)

 

A pitcher that tends to strike out hitters to get his outs tend to be a bit more stable in their ERA, WHIP, etc.

 

A nice stat though, is that he didn't walk anybody. That and he's keeping the ball in the ball park, and lets hope that continues.

[Drew Doughty]

I don't see it that way at all.

 

well, you said an improved defense was the difference between disaster and respectability, so I was just going by what you posted.

 

While it's true that a pitcher can't control what happens to a pitch once it's put into play, that doesn't mean that he's lucky if the defense makes the play behind him.

 

That's true. That also doesn't really pertain to Marquis. Frequently giving up baserunners and then stranding them is no way to pitch well consistently. He'll have some days like today that make him look good, and other days where he'll get pounded because he gives up contact most of the time.

 

It can mean that he's executing his gameplan perfectly. ML defenders are going to make the plays the majority of the time.

 

I really don't think his game plan is to put runners on and then leave them there. Which is the point I'm arguing, so if you mean something else with this then it doesn't apply.

 

Luck is tricky and hard to define. What about the pitcher who misses his location and gets the batter to strike out swinging? That's much more luck than allowing your teammates to make routine defensive plays.

 

From the sounds of things, it was more than just routine defensive plays. That's besides the point, though. He's not going to give up 2-3 base runners per inning and get out of it consistently, like he did today in the first few innings.

[Brian]

Marquis didn't walk anyone today.

 

not technically, but he did hit eckstein with a full count so that's pretty much equal to a walk.

 

I'm not saying that contributes to any argument either way, I'm just saying.

[soccer10k]

Well didn't see the game today (due to the fact that it was on FOX but not out here and that I had to work) but I was definitely pleased with the result.

 

I'm not only glad to see that Marquis had a great start but that the Cubs actually took advantage of it.

 

Hello good Will Ohman. Welcome back and we would love it if you stayed.

 

Ronny Cedeno, congrats on more than doubling your batting average. Now raise it another .170 and we'll be good to go. I find it amazing that his three hits on the year are two home runs and a double.

 

Matt Murton and Jacque Jones both 2-4, =D>.

[CubColtPacer]

 

From the sounds of things, it was more than just routine defensive plays. That's besides the point, though. He's not going to give up 2-3 base runners per inning and get out of it consistently, like he did today in the first few innings.

 

The defense wasn't that good. Pie made a couple above average plays (one that Soriano and Jones certainly would have made, one I'm not so sure about). They also had two defensive problems in the 4th-a bobble that led to an error and then another bobble that led to an inability to get an easy double play. The net effect of Marquis's defense was about zero-and those are about the only plays he needed them, because most of the contact was pop ups and soft ground balls. I do agree with you that if he gives up baserunners like this, he will not pitch many shutouts-he still might pitch well, but a team will break through once or twice with runners on. I just wanted to address this comment, as the defense was not helping Marquis out all day.

[cubweiser03]

Cedeno is due.

Thats all i got.

 

Touche, salesman.

 

My dad says this all the time when refering to someone in a slump, 'He's due'. Its quite entertaining for me. If they player failed he would say 'next time' :lol:

 

Ronny is not due today.

So i got nuthin.

[mul21]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he gave up 10 baserunners today, 7 hits, 1 error, and 2 HBP. The 2 HBP are pretty much the same as a walk and of the 7 hits, 3-4 of them were ground balls that happened to find a hole. Couple Ronny's error with Aram's bobble that prevented the double play and it turns into a pretty respectable showing. Do I expect Marquis to continue to pitch like this? Probably not. But if Rothschild really did find a flaw in his delivery and fixed it, who knows what he can do.

[Drew Doughty]

 

From the sounds of things, it was more than just routine defensive plays. That's besides the point, though. He's not going to give up 2-3 base runners per inning and get out of it consistently, like he did today in the first few innings.

 

The defense wasn't that good. Pie made a couple above average plays (one that Soriano and Jones certainly would have made, one I'm not so sure about). They also had two defensive problems in the 4th-a bobble that led to an error and then another bobble that led to an inability to get an easy double play. The net effect of Marquis's defense was about zero-and those are about the only plays he needed them, because most of the contact was pop ups and soft ground balls. I do agree with you that if he gives up baserunners like this, he will not pitch many shutouts-he still might pitch well, but a team will break through once or twice with runners on. I just wanted to address this comment, as the defense was not helping Marquis out all day.

 

Hm, well I didn't see the game so I was going off of what was said, so I guess I was sticking with what I had read about Pie's day too much.