Hill a long reliever?

[Danny82]

I am simply dumbfounded by the worked up responses in this thread.

 

Until you actually hear or see something from the organization that indicates that Hill won't be in the rotation, why get all worked up about it? Seems like a lot of wasted energy to me.

 

You're right, the Cubs have given me lots of reasons not to overreact over the last 99 years...

Fine, blow that vein in your forehead if you want. I prefer to wait until I see Hill not in the rotation before I get all agitated about things.

[CubColtPacer]

you really only think there has been one month of baseball where hill should have been in the rotation but wasn't?

 

He didn't give much of an indication that he belonged in the majors the first half of last season. Hard to say there is a "should have" there when he was getting shallacked most every time they sent him out early on.

Hill at AAA:

 

April - .149/.221/.230 with a 0.80 WHIP and 33/7 K/BB

May - .245/.275/.265 with a 1.03 WHIP and 21/1 K/BB

June - .180/.225/.261 with a 0.79 WHIP and 41/6 K/BB

July - .170/.239/.260 with a 0.82 WHIP and 40/7 K/BB

 

And the big league team/rotation sucked.

 

Rothshild was never very patient with Hill, nor was Hendry. We'll have to see if that changes this year.

 

The thing is-he came up May 4th. For a person who didn't make the big league team out of ST and for no injuries, that's about as fast as a pitcher can usually make it because the major league club likes to give the people on the roster a couple of chances to succeed before calling for an option from the minors. Once Hill had put 4 great starts at Triple A together, he got called right back up.

 

Once he did make it, he was horrible again-considering the state of the season we were in, I probably wouldn't have sent him down, but I can see why they did. Even if you think they should have kept him up there though, that's only 2 months at most that he was in the minors that he shouldn't have been.

[USSoccer]

I am simply dumbfounded by the worked up responses in this thread.

 

Until you actually hear or see something from the organization that indicates that Hill won't be in the rotation, why get all worked up about it? Seems like a lot of wasted energy to me.

 

You're right, the Cubs have given me lots of reasons not to overreact over the last 99 years...

Fine, blow that vein in your forehead if you want. I prefer to wait until I see Hill not in the rotation before I get all agitated about things.

 

You act as if the Cubs have never stuck with an overpaid, bad veteran over a younger, cheaper option with a signifigantly greater upside.

 

Yes, that article is written by someone with no bloody clue, but to act as if the Cubs would never be so stupid is in and of itself stupid and ignorant of the history that this GM has carved out for himself.

[rocket]

I don't care about his minor league numbers.

 

What did he do in the majors early in the season?

 

Is it ever his fault for not performing? Or is it always somebody on the staff's instead?

 

it is his fault he didn't do well the first half in the majors. but the point is, his 12 games started after the all-star break were phenomenal, and that alone should guarantee him a spot in this year's rotation. his last 12 starts last season made him earn that spot a lot more than 3-4 starts in spring training. it's absurd not to guarantee hill a spot in the rotation.

[Outshined_One]

Is it ever his fault for not performing? Or is it always somebody on the staff's instead?

 

Apparently the Cubs' AAA pitching coach (I think Alan Dunn?) got really pissed off at Larry Rothschild over the way Rothschild handled Rich Hill. Word is Rothschild backed off Hill when he came up for his second go-round last season.

 

While this isn't to say that Hill was not at fault for his struggles, it's a mistake to think those two categories are mutually exclusive.

[Soul]

I would expect if Hill was going to fail, he would have trailed off near the end of the year, when batters had a chance to really examine his stuff and make adjustments.

 

Instead, Hill had a good 2nd half.

 

Rich should be in the starting rotation. Even if Prior is healthy and pitching well, he's the 3rd best starter on the club IMHO.

[Jon]

I don't care about his minor league numbers.

 

What did he do in the majors early in the season?

 

Is it ever his fault for not performing? Or is it always somebody on the staff's instead?

He only pitched 22.2 innings in the big leagues in the months of April, May, June, and July combined. They gave Angel Guzman the promotion in April when he wasn't ready and Hill was.

 

The organization has a clear history of not liking Rich Hill. I, for on, don't expect things to be the exact opposite come this season. And there is no way that he has a spot in the rotation locked up right now. Not with at least four guys fighting for two spots. If Prior is healthy enough to break camp on the 25, that leaves three guys fighting for one spot.

Edited February 18, 2007 by Jon

[CubColtPacer]

I don't care about his minor league numbers.

 

What did he do in the majors early in the season?

 

Is it ever his fault for not performing? Or is it always somebody on the staff's instead?

 

it is his fault he didn't do well the first half in the majors. but the point is, his 12 games started after the all-star break were phenomenal, and that alone should guarantee him a spot in this year's rotation. his last 12 starts last season made him earn that spot a lot more than 3-4 starts in spring training. it's absurd not to guarantee hill a spot in the rotation.

 

As much as I'm arguing that the Cubs do not have a large history about sticking Hill behind a veteran undeservedly (like I said, 2 months at most) I completely agree with this-Z, Hill, and Lilly should be the ones with guaranteed spots, with Prior having the leg up on the next one if he can prove he is healthy.

[Danny82]

The organization has a clear history of not liking Rich Hill.

 

All I can do is shake my head.

[abuck1220]

I don't care about his minor league numbers.

 

well, then i don't think we have anything else to discuss.

 

What did he do in the majors early in the season?

 

you're right, he'll never amount to anything. oh wait, he was one of the best pitchers in baseball post-ASB in '06. guess judging a guy based on a few scattered innings may not be the best way to go.

[Soul]

We should look at the bright side -- if Hill's not in the rotation, that means the other starters are pitching decently. And if one falters, Hill will get the call anyway.

 

We now have an overabundance of starters. That's not a bad problem to have. My guess is, even if Hill doesn't make the rotation out of camp, Marquis will immediately suck and be swapped to the bullpen for Hill.

 

Hill should be a SP for the vast majority of the season in any event.

[Ivy Walls]

Hill (had a good 8 weeks) and should continue in his professional mastery...

 

That said there are contractual obligations of veterans...and unspoken roster strategies....my guess is that Marquis is the one who is the long reliever because his mechanics will continue to need work...

 

Rotation will probably be: Z, Lilly, Prior, Hill, Miller if both Prior [/b/(most likely) and Miller return healthy and effective with innings.

 

My best guess scenerio is that the Cubs will review their options in June/July if Miller shows he has returned to effective form and either trade him and acsend a AAA or Marquis if he has proved effective. Cubs could also ride Miller and they pay out his incentives.

[Derwood]

nothing (barring injury) will keep Marquis and Lilly out of the rotation.

 

And yes, there is plenty of precedent with the organization benching/demoting a promising youngster for a useless veteran (Choi/McGriff ring any bells?)

[Danny82]

I don't care about his minor league numbers.

 

well, then i don't think we have anything else to discuss.

 

What did he do in the majors early in the season?

 

you're right, he'll never amount to anything. oh wait, he was one of the best pitchers in baseball post-ASB in '06. guess judging a guy based on a few scattered innings may not be the best way to go.

 

The king of hyperbole speaks again.

[abuck1220]

The organization has a clear history of not liking Rich Hill.

 

All I can do is shake my head.

 

hey, me too!

[abuck1220]

I don't care about his minor league numbers.

 

well, then i don't think we have anything else to discuss.

 

What did he do in the majors early in the season?

 

you're right, he'll never amount to anything. oh wait, he was one of the best pitchers in baseball post-ASB in '06. guess judging a guy based on a few scattered innings may not be the best way to go.

 

The king of hyperbole speaks again.

 

so you weren't just judging hill on a few scattered innings?

[CubColtPacer]

nothing (barring injury) will keep Marquis and Lilly out of the rotation.

 

And yes, there is plenty of precedent with the organization benching/demoting a promising youngster for a useless veteran (Choi/McGriff ring any bells?)

 

Nope-McGriff was never useless for the Cubs, so that doesn't ring any bells for me.

[abuck1220]

nothing (barring injury) will keep Marquis and Lilly out of the rotation.

 

And yes, there is plenty of precedent with the organization benching/demoting a promising youngster for a useless veteran (Choi/McGriff ring any bells?)

 

Nope-McGriff was never useless for the Cubs, so that doesn't ring any bells for me.

 

false.

[CubColtPacer]

nothing (barring injury) will keep Marquis and Lilly out of the rotation.

 

And yes, there is plenty of precedent with the organization benching/demoting a promising youngster for a useless veteran (Choi/McGriff ring any bells?)

 

Nope-McGriff was never useless for the Cubs, so that doesn't ring any bells for me.

 

false.

 

A useless veteran would be one that plays badly, right? When did McGriff play badly for us?

[Soul]

nothing (barring injury) will keep Marquis and Lilly out of the rotation.

 

And yes, there is plenty of precedent with the organization benching/demoting a promising youngster for a useless veteran (Choi/McGriff ring any bells?)

 

Nope-McGriff was never useless for the Cubs, so that doesn't ring any bells for me.

 

Not useless, but pointless at the end of his last season when the Cubs were way out of it and Choi could have used the playing time. Doesn't matter though.

[Danny82]

I don't care about his minor league numbers.

 

well, then i don't think we have anything else to discuss.

 

What did he do in the majors early in the season?

 

you're right, he'll never amount to anything. oh wait, he was one of the best pitchers in baseball post-ASB in '06. guess judging a guy based on a few scattered innings may not be the best way to go.

 

The king of hyperbole speaks again.

 

so you weren't just judging hill on a few scattered innings?

No. I'm saying that you can't say that he should have been up more than he was when he put up a 9.31 ERA in four starts in May. Something had to change, so he went down and worked on some things that helped him out. He is quoted as saying such. I know you are a big fan of his. So am I. But, I don't see the reason for all of this clamoring that he has been so mistreated by this organization. He still had to demonstrate that he could perform at the major league level. He didn't do that in May.

[David]

 

Rich should be in the starting rotation. Even if Prior is healthy and pitching well, he's the 3rd best starter on the club IMHO.

 

I have to disagree.

 

Prior healthy and pitching well (by his stardards) is the best starter on this team.

[USSoccer]

nothing (barring injury) will keep Marquis and Lilly out of the rotation.

 

And yes, there is plenty of precedent with the organization benching/demoting a promising youngster for a useless veteran (Choi/McGriff ring any bells?)

 

Nope-McGriff was never useless for the Cubs, so that doesn't ring any bells for me.

 

You've got to be kidding me. Not only was McGriff useless to the Cubs in general, but that particular September he actually hurt the team by taking away AB's from Choi. AB's that could have helped Choi in 2003.

 

And it's not like that's the only example. Grudz over Hill. Estes over Cruz. Hollandsworth over Dubois. Everyone over Murton. Some worked out short term, others not so much. In several cases they went with the mediocre known over the potential unknown, despite the unknown outperforming the mediocre known.

 

There's a trend there. To ignore it is to disrespect the conversation.

Edited February 18, 2007 by USSoccer

[Jon]

If Prior is "healthy," he gets a spot in the rotation. There isn't much question about that. Like I said, it would come down to Hill, Guzman, and Miller for that last spot.

[abuck1220]

nothing (barring injury) will keep Marquis and Lilly out of the rotation.

 

And yes, there is plenty of precedent with the organization benching/demoting a promising youngster for a useless veteran (Choi/McGriff ring any bells?)

 

Nope-McGriff was never useless for the Cubs, so that doesn't ring any bells for me.

 

false.

 

A useless veteran would be one that plays badly, right? When did McGriff play badly for us?

 

when he absolutely crapped the bed for the first 1 3/4 months of 2002.