Cubs Sign Marquis to 3/21

[jjgman21]

Exactly.

 

Marshall: 5.59 ERA, 1.52 WHIP, .270 BAA, 77 K/59 BB, 20 HR

Marquis: 6.02 ERA, 1.52 WHIP, .289 BAA, 96 K/75 BB, 35 HR

 

How much does Marshall make? That is just mind boggling that we are going to give 9 or so million to a guy who was outperformed by someone who is probably making under a million. Sorry dont know where to find the exact numbers that Marshall makes.

That's not a very fair comparison to make because it leaves out one very important item - IP. You simply cannot count on Sean Marshall to hold down a rotation spot for a year when he has yet to complete a season without significant DL time.

 

Now, you could make an argument that the pitcher who threw less innings at the above quality level was better, but that's kinda beside the point. :D

When I quoted this initial post, I had no idea it would become such a lengthy argument point! Sorry to have rubbed this in. :oops:

 

I'm sorry for my part in the diversions.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Yes, there is good reason, but most of it has been hyperbolic melodrama.

 

Actually, most of it has been fans fed up with garbage baseball.

Speaking of melodramatic posts.

 

It is what is is. The past two seasons have been nothing but bad baseball on the northside. I try to be positive. I loved the Soriono signing. Didn't mind the Lily aquistion, then Hendry pulls this off. 7(maybe 9) million for Jason Marquis.

 

One 'bad' signing and you're off to negativity land again.

 

DLee's '05 sure did suck. So did Hill's second half. Oh, and Z blows.

 

There's some melodrama for ya.

[Butterscup1679666578]

Maybe since there is so much confusion on how much he was signed for, it'll end up being a different team who signed him.

[Mephistopheles]

jim hendry likes the signing. i just can't wait to hear what crap he uses to justify it.

 

It's gotta be the 4.33 ERA during day games. Gotta be! Jim's such a forward thinker.

 

Anyways, I hate the signing. I'd rather have Guzman in the rotation than Marquis. If Guzman is a total bust I would like to think his ERA would be a hair of five. Even if he gets hurt Sean Marshall would probably put up an ERA around five. My point is given their seasoning last year and the fact that Marshall and Guzman had their moments last season I would expect them to have 5.00 ERA or so at the minimum (especially in Gooz's case). Say we expect a 4.50 ERA from Marquis, which is fairly optimistic given his HR rates and moving to Wrigley, then the difference between Guzman as a bust with a five plus ERA is 10 runs or so over the course of the season, maybe even less when you consider that we have a very deep and talented bullpen. So in my opinion we're paying 7 million for 10 runs or so. On top of that there's also a fairly high chance that Guzman gets his act together and develops into an average to above average starter at some point in the season. He really had his changeup come on the last half of the season. He was clearly rusty and showed the talent to be a good starter in the league. Buy signing a marginal starter you take away those chances, so yeah this is stupid.

 

Seven million for 10 runs. Awesome.

 

To be fair, Marquis 06 ERA was inflated by two starts where he gave up 25 runs in 10 innings. Take those out and and he's a not so bad 5.12.

[jjgman21]

I was travelling all day. Cliff notes on this thread, please.

jjg is trying to politely argue the merits of the young pitchers vs. Marquis with the Jon and Raisin (tough job just to keep up with those two!)

 

The majority of people feel it was an awful deal and have expressed themselves to that effect in various manners.

 

Much hyperbole has been used to describe how bad Marquis is.

 

Some people have come out in support of the signing as being something the Cubs didn't have much choice about and there really weren't that many other dependable (from a health perspective) starters on the market.

 

I think that's mostly it.

 

sorry Tim, I can't let this pass. I was in no way defending the virtues of Marquis or his abilities in comparison to the young pitchers in the system. that's not what that was about. I just want to make it clear that I am actually undecided on what to think in that regard. it was a 'method of debate' discussion that didn't belong here and should probably be moved to rants by some enterprising mod.

[Soriano12]

 

Anyways, I hate the signing.

 

Glad to have you on board. Whether I agree or disagree with your argument you always have an encyclopedia of stats to back it.

 

Now give me the juicy numbers on why Marquis sucks, so I can use that in addtition to my "melodramatic posts"

 

8-)

[Guest]

I was travelling all day. Cliff notes on this thread, please.

jjg is trying to politely argue the merits of the young pitchers vs. Marquis with the Jon and Raisin (tough job just to keep up with those two!)

 

The majority of people feel it was an awful deal and have expressed themselves to that effect in various manners.

 

Much hyperbole has been used to describe how bad Marquis is.

 

Some people have come out in support of the signing as being something the Cubs didn't have much choice about and there really weren't that many other dependable (from a health perspective) starters on the market.

 

I think that's mostly it.

 

sorry Tim, I can't let this pass. I was in no way defending the virtues of Marquis or his abilities in comparison to the young pitchers in the system. that's not what that was about. I just want to make it clear that I am actually undecided on what to think in that regard. it was a 'method of debate' discussion that didn't belong here and should probably be moved to rants by some enterprising mod.

Okay. Seems like it got pretty heated if all you were disagreeing about was semantics and method of debate.

 

Then again, sometimes debates about what you're debating about are the most heated.

[Guest]

 

Anyways, I hate the signing.

 

Glad to have you on board. Whether I agree or disagree with your argument you always have an encyclopedia of stats to back it.

 

Now give me the juicy numbers on why Marquis sucks, so I can use that in addtition to my "melodramatic posts"

 

8-)

Yet another.

[frostwyrm]

It's funny that I don't see anyone else lamenting Hendry's attempt to go from worst to first all in one offseason, and in a hideously unfavorable market. I really would have thought there would be some support for a retooling year.

[XZero771679666304]

Yes, there is good reason, but most of it has been hyperbolic melodrama.

 

Actually, most of it has been fans fed up with garbage baseball.

Speaking of melodramatic posts.

 

It is what is is. The past two seasons have been nothing but bad baseball on the northside. I try to be positive. I loved the Soriono signing. Didn't mind the Lily aquistion, then Hendry pulls this off. 7(maybe 9) million for Jason Marquis.

 

Cubs fans have been putting up with this type of thing for a long, long time. I have been for 20+ years, and I love the Cubs as much or more than anyone. I kills me (not necessarily referring to you, since I don't know how old you are) when 18-20 year old kids start crying about how "sick of it" they are.

 

I am as frustrated and angry as anyone over the events of the past few seasons (in which we actually HAD talent and largely squandered it). Having said that, after being tempered by abject failure for so long, you'd think Cubs fans would be able to respond to incompetence like this with a bit more equanimity. Hand wringing and hyperbole isn't going to accomplish anything, except maybe exacerbate the negative emotion.

Edited December 10, 2006 by XZero77

[CaliforniaRaisin]

I was travelling all day. Cliff notes on this thread, please.

jjg is trying to politely argue the merits of the young pitchers vs. Marquis with the Jon and Raisin (tough job just to keep up with those two!)

 

The majority of people feel it was an awful deal and have expressed themselves to that effect in various manners.

 

Much hyperbole has been used to describe how bad Marquis is.

 

Some people have come out in support of the signing as being something the Cubs didn't have much choice about and there really weren't that many other dependable (from a health perspective) starters on the market.

 

I think that's mostly it.

 

sorry Tim, I can't let this pass. I was in no way defending the virtues of Marquis or his abilities in comparison to the young pitchers in the system. that's not what that was about. I just want to make it clear that I am actually undecided on what to think in that regard. it was a 'method of debate' discussion that didn't belong here and should probably be moved to rants by some enterprising mod.

Okay. Seems like it got pretty heated if all you were disagreeing about was semantics and method of debate.

 

Then again, sometimes debates about what you're debating about are the most heated.

 

It was pretty semantical.

[CubinNY]

look, Jason Marquis is an outstanding pitcher. he put up an ERA+ of 127 at age 22, and put together seasons of 113 and 103. clearly he's the best option over any of the dregs in the minors who proved last year they have no future at the major league level. great signing.

 

 

 

 

 

that's exactly what you guys are doing, only from the other side, and you don't even see it.

 

Sorry if this has been mentioned already. I'm just back from an X-mas party.

 

How old is Marquis now? He's not been outstanding for at least 5 years.

 

Give me a freaking break.

 

I guess it's fine to be a contrian but at some point it becomes absurd.

[Soul]

Yes, there is good reason, but most of it has been hyperbolic melodrama.

 

Actually, most of it has been fans fed up with garbage baseball.

Speaking of melodramatic posts.

 

It is what is is. The past two seasons have been nothing but bad baseball on the northside. I try to be positive. I loved the Soriono signing. Didn't mind the Lily aquistion, then Hendry pulls this off. 7(maybe 9) million for Jason Marquis.

 

Cubs fans have been putting up with this type of thing for a long, long time. I have been for 20+ years, and I love the Cubs as much or more than anyone. I kills me (not necessarily referring to you, since I don't know how old you are) when 18-20 year old kids start crying about how "sick of it" they are.

 

I am as frustrated and angry as anyone over the events of the past few seasons (in which we actually HAD talent and largely squandered it). Having said that, after being tempered by abject failure for so long, you'd think Cubs fans would be able to respond to incompetence like this with a bit more equanimity. Hand wringing and hyperbole isn't going to accomplish anything, except maybe exacerbate the negative emotion.

 

Thing is though, if you've been watching this club as long as I have, the whole "overspending" thing is a recent development. Most of my history as a Cub fan has been watching the team do pretty much nothing, including letting their best players get away because they were afraid to ink top-money deals.

 

Not that paying out busloads of cash for Marquis is any better. I do find it interesting that Royals fans are overjoyed that their GM just spent the farm on a mediocre guy just because it represents a change.

[Soriano12]

look, Jason Marquis is an outstanding pitcher. he put up an ERA+ of 127 at age 22, and put together seasons of 113 and 103. clearly he's the best option over any of the dregs in the minors who proved last year they have no future at the major league level. great signing.

 

 

 

 

 

that's exactly what you guys are doing, only from the other side, and you don't even see it.

 

Sorry if this has been mentioned already. I'm just back from an X-mas party.

 

How old is Marquis now? He's not been outstanding for at least 5 years.

 

Give me a freaking break.

 

I guess it's fine to be a contrian but at some point it becomes absurd.

 

I think that post of his was sarcasm.

[jjgman21]

It's funny that I don't see anyone else lamenting Hendry's attempt to go from worst to first all in one offseason, and in a hideously unfavorable market. I really would have thought there would be some support for a retooling year.

 

I'm torn. I would like to see the team put together properly over the period of two or three years making smart transactions. but the fact is, this team needed an immediate influx of talent, even if not top of the line talent, to be able to be competetive within the next couple years.

 

you can't predict the future and what will be available, and I think we learned our lesson of relying too much on the future of a farm system built on pitching and with few positional prospects. at least now the Cubs are in position where a couple of trades with the prospects is even feasible. it really wasn't before signing the mediocre FAs. and not only that, but the right trade or two puts them over the top. we can now trade a couple of the pitching prospects. before we could not, because we had to rely on them as fallbacks.

 

 

realistically as well, we have to look at the totality of the circumstances from the Trib and Hendry's standpoint. they have a loyal yet fickle fanbase and an intra-city rival that is approaching them in popularity. building from the ground up really isn't fiscally responsible for them. better to throw money at the problem and keep the turnstiles spinning from a business perspective.

[CubColtPacer]

look, Jason Marquis is an outstanding pitcher. he put up an ERA+ of 127 at age 22, and put together seasons of 113 and 103. clearly he's the best option over any of the dregs in the minors who proved last year they have no future at the major league level. great signing.

 

 

 

 

 

that's exactly what you guys are doing, only from the other side, and you don't even see it.

 

Sorry if this has been mentioned already. I'm just back from an X-mas party.

 

How old is Marquis now? He's not been outstanding for at least 5 years.

 

Give me a freaking break.

 

I guess it's fine to be a contrian but at some point it becomes absurd.

 

That particular post was sarcasm by jjgman to try to prove a point from a different argument.

 

In response to your question, he is 28-and if he can put up numbers close to what he did his first 2 years in St Louis (2004-2005), his contract will be a bargain-it's just a huge gamble if he can repeat that or not. Personally, I think the contract is close to an average gamble-if it's 3/20, I think it's a good enough gamble, if it's 3 for 28, I'm skeptical of gambling that much-he still has a decent chance of living up to his contract though, and hopefully the gamble actually works.

[CubinNY]

look, Jason Marquis is an outstanding pitcher. he put up an ERA+ of 127 at age 22, and put together seasons of 113 and 103. clearly he's the best option over any of the dregs in the minors who proved last year they have no future at the major league level. great signing.

 

 

that's exactly what you guys are doing, only from the other side, and you don't even see it.

 

Sorry if this has been mentioned already. I'm just back from an X-mas party.

 

How old is Marquis now? He's not been outstanding for at least 5 years.

 

Give me a freaking break.

 

I guess it's fine to be a contrian but at some point it becomes absurd.

 

I think that post of his was sarcasm.

 

Sorry if it was sarcasm.

However, Marquis is just another in a long line of "lightning in a bottle" signings by the Cubs.

 

I'm tired of the Cubs mentality, to go with the least worst option. Soriano is not what the Cubs needed. Neither are Lilly, Marquis, Morindini, Blauser, Gieatti, Cey, Scott, and on and on and on.

[Guest]

It's funny that I don't see anyone else lamenting Hendry's attempt to go from worst to first all in one offseason, and in a hideously unfavorable market. I really would have thought there would be some support for a retooling year.

I think it was quite possible to go from worst to first. But in my mind we just didn't go about spending a fortune correctly. In fact, the four exact moves I called for in Sept were Soriano (for 2B), Drew, Daisuke and Schmidt. Admittedly, I don't know if was ever possible for us to get Schmidt, but we could have done the other three plus Lilly and not spent a whole lot more money (assuming you account for the posting fee in a different budget, that is).

 

I think that would have put us pretty comfortably #1 in the division and serious WS contenders.

 

Soriano

Drew

Lee

Ramirez

Jones

Murton

Barrett

Izzy

 

 

Z

Daisuke

Lilly

Hill

Prior/Miller/et al.

[XZero771679666304]

Thing is though, if you've been watching this club as long as I have, the whole "overspending" thing is a recent development. Most of my history as a Cub fan has been watching the team do pretty much nothing, including letting their best players get away because they were afraid to ink top-money deals.

 

Not that paying out busloads of cash for Marquis is any better. I do find it interesting that Royals fans are overjoyed that their GM just spent the farm on a mediocre guy just because it represents a change.

 

Hell, I know. Our team starts spending money, and they can't even do that right. Still, a small part of me is just happy they're spending. On the other hand, you wonder if it's just part of the Cubs experience that the offseason that the bank vault opens happens to be the offseason where the least is available. I can only hope that it carries over to next offseason.

 

It's a mess, there's no arguing that. But it's not a catastrophe, and certainly not worth coming unglued over.

[Soriano12]

So before the FA period begun, the Cubs had about 40-45 million/per season to spend on FA's.

 

around 25 million contracts off the books(Wood buyout, Maddux contract, Pierre contract)

 

+ 20 million in pledged extra $$$ from the Tribune.

 

 

So we have added

 

Soriono 17 M

Derosa 4 M

Lilly 10 M

Marquis 7 M (going with this # for now)

Wood, Miller, Ward, etc...3 Million(my best guess)

 

Thats 41 million. Please someone correct me on these numbers if they are off, because right now (if the Tribune is enforcing a strict budget after this payroll increase authorization) a Zambrano contract does not appear promising.

[XZero771679666304]

It's funny that I don't see anyone else lamenting Hendry's attempt to go from worst to first all in one offseason, and in a hideously unfavorable market. I really would have thought there would be some support for a retooling year.

I think it was quite possible to go from worst to first. But in my mind we just didn't go about spending a fortune correctly. In fact, the four exact moves I called for in Sept were Soriano (for 2B), Drew, Daisuke and Schmidt. Admittedly, I don't know if was ever possible for us to get Schmidt, but we could have done the other three plus Lilly and not spent a whole lot more money (assuming you account for the posting fee in a different budget, that is).

 

I think that would have put us pretty comfortably #1 in the division and serious WS contenders.

 

Soriano

Drew

Lee

Ramirez

Jones

Murton

Barrett

Izzy

 

 

Z

Daisuke

Lilly

Hill

Prior/Miller/et al.

 

51 million just to negotiate with Matsuzaka and five guaranteed years for Drew are as ridiculous as anything I have seen this offseason.

[Soul]

look, Jason Marquis is an outstanding pitcher. he put up an ERA+ of 127 at age 22, and put together seasons of 113 and 103. clearly he's the best option over any of the dregs in the minors who proved last year they have no future at the major league level. great signing.

 

 

that's exactly what you guys are doing, only from the other side, and you don't even see it.

 

Sorry if this has been mentioned already. I'm just back from an X-mas party.

 

How old is Marquis now? He's not been outstanding for at least 5 years.

 

Give me a freaking break.

 

I guess it's fine to be a contrian but at some point it becomes absurd.

 

I think that post of his was sarcasm.

 

Sorry if it was sarcasm.

However, Marquis is just another in a long line of "lightning in a bottle" signings by the Cubs.

 

I'm tired of the Cubs mentality, to go with the least worst option. Soriano is not what the Cubs needed. Neither are Lilly, Marquis, Morindini, Blauser, Gieatti, Cey, Scott, and on and on and on.

 

In all fairness though, the Cards just won a World Series with a few of those "lightning in a bottle" signings, including Marquis himself, who was run out of Atlanta with his tail between his legs after his 1st regression ('02 and '03).

 

Some of this is about what the Cubs do with the players once they get them, which for too long has simply been "OK you're supposed to know what you're doing so just carry us to a World Series" instead of a team like the Cards, who follow more of the "you've got some tools, let's see how we can maximize your effectiveness and make you better" school of thought.

 

I think I like the latter way of doing things much better.

[CubinNY]

It's funny that I don't see anyone else lamenting Hendry's attempt to go from worst to first all in one offseason, and in a hideously unfavorable market. I really would have thought there would be some support for a retooling year.

I think it was quite possible to go from worst to first. But in my mind we just didn't go about spending a fortune correctly. In fact, the four exact moves I called for in Sept were Soriano (for 2B), Drew, Daisuke and Schmidt. Admittedly, I don't know if was ever possible for us to get Schmidt, but we could have done the other three plus Lilly and not spent a whole lot more money (assuming you account for the posting fee in a different budget, that is).

 

I think that would have put us pretty comfortably #1 in the division and serious WS contenders.

 

Soriano

Drew

Lee

Ramirez

Jones

Murton

Barrett

Izzy

 

 

Z

Daisuke

Lilly

Hill

Prior/Miller/et al.

 

I would be a happy camper if that would have happened. Real happy.

 

The only thing I might quibble about is that I don't think the Cubs had the finacial wearwithall to pay the ridicilous posting fee for Daisuke.

[Soriano12]

 

In all fairness though, the Cards just won a World Series with a few of those "lightning in a bottle" signings, including Marquis himself,

 

How did Marquis contribute to the Cardinals WS victory?

[Post Count Padder]

Rotoworld has this to say:

 

Jason Marquis-S-Cardinals Dec. 9 - 10:43 pm et

 

 

Jason Marquis three-year deal with the Cubs will be worth $21 million, according to the Chicago Tribune.

 

It's a big commitment to someone who might not be any better than Wade Miller, Angel Guzman or Sean Marshall. If Mark Prior is healthy come spring training, none of those guys will have any chance of winning a rotation spot. Neal Cotts is also likely bullpen bound, which could mean that Will Ohman will be traded.

Source: Chicago Tribune