Cubs sign Soriano

jjgman21 · November 20, 2006

Now thats just ridiculous. I realize you like Drew, but lets try dealing in reality.

It's not ridiculous.

Pierre to Soriano for 526 outs = + 30 runs
Pierre to JD Drew for (120/162)*526 outs = + 37 runs

Sure, there is a margin for error. Like some of those displaced outs from Drew having a higher OBP going to scrubs like Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez. Regardless, at the worst Drew for 120 games is the same as Soriano for 162 games.

And the assumption of Pie = Pierre

what numbers are you using? last year? career? three year? which ever makes your point stronger?

JWCUB · November 20, 2006

I think the most positive aspect of the signing is the timing.With the exception of Lee, Drew and a few others, the FA talent drops off dramatically. With this signing so early, if Lee and Drew can sign somewhere soon, it could put some teams behind the 8 ball. Needing to improve, they may go for a trade that they wouln't normally do. I think this is where Hendry will wheel and deal. I like our position as we stand.

CubinNY · November 20, 2006

I think Soriano is a good player, but right now he doesn't have a position to play. I'll reserve judgment on that until I see him in the field. I am happy they got another run producer, but the cost is prohibitivie, IMO.

I hope the Cubs can still get Drew for CF and trade JJ. If Hendry can do that I will sign his praises until the next time he acquires a player. Then I will evaluate that trade on its own merit.

Are you serious? Personally, I think what you just said is completely, utterly absurd. Soriano, regardless of what team he's on, has a position to play. Just MO. Let's just have fun with this, shall we?

If what people are saying is true, i.e., the Cubs are penciling him in for RF, then I worry about it. If he's replacing Murton in LF, then I hope the Cubs can get a RFer. If he's in CF, then I worry.

We know he is terrible at 2nd, but the Cubs have signed DeRosa. Even with the poor defense at 2nd, that's where I'd play him.

I know it is self-evident, but the point is making a good team, not signing a collection of good players and moving them around.

nilodnayr · November 20, 2006

you completely make my point. it shouldn't be about having nice sabr stats compared over the course of two season, viewed in isolation because it is aesthetically pleasing. it should be about making the team better as a whole.

I wouldn't have minded signing Lugo, but you have to keep in mind that the cost of Lugo at short is about 13M. 8+ for Lugo and 4+ for Izturis. not sure if you've noticed or not, but it doesn't seem like anyone is banging down the doors to take Izturis off the Cubs hands.

fine way to build a ballclub there. that's what I am saying about viewing things in a vacuum. "should have signed Lugo" without any consideration that would mean a 4 million dollar shortstop riding the pines or being released. the complaint her is money for production, and you guys aren't taking all the money into account. you just assume it will disappear in the wind somewhere.

A) please fix the quotes because you accidentally deleted one of the end quotes to make it look like I said something you said.

B)Obviously if you sign lugo for short you will trade izturis. And supposedly there is a market for izturis (Boston, Cleveland) or to at least get rid of him for nothing (see AGonz signing with the reds).

C) KC has made the lugo example, but I think it is more to illustrate the fact that the money was spent completely inappropriately, not that hes specifically advocating signing lugo. I think he used lugo to prove that a cheaper addition at a position that was worse for the cubs in 2006 could improve the team just as much as signing Soriano. But you would have to ask him that.

sorry about the quotes, but I'm not going to fix them. I don't even know what page they are on.

the problem with the suggestion of trading Izturis is, again, viewing things in a vacuum. you sign Lugo, everyone knows you are desperate to dump Izturis. Boston and Toronto could get by with what they had and just wait for him to be released if they want him and the Cubs would be paying Izturis to play for a different team. other than that, I don't know of a market for him (why would Cleveland want Izturis?)

I don't disagree that the money was spent inappropriately. I hate the years that have been rumored. but again, viewing things in a vacuum. we simply don't have enough information to determine how inappropriate it is. the harsh critics just assume they know what could have been done and state it as fact to make their case.

no worries on the quote issue, they are long behind us

I disagree, the critics (me, KC, TT, Jon, Navin, and Rob) are using all the information taht is available to make our claim. We do not propose to know everything or be able to predict what will happen in the future. As I have stated a few times before, if Drew is a lock to Boston, Lee is a lock to Houston, and Theo wont trade us Manny then Sori is a must sign.

And if Theo and JP think that acquiring Izturis will help their team, they will do it, regardless of how bad of a position we are in. With whats gone on in this market, Izturis' value is at worst a bucket of balls. And I forget who it was in the Cleveland org (Shapiro?), but there was a quote that said they watched video on every ball that was hit to ss and they believed that Peraltas range was horrendous. There have been claims that they are looking for a backup SS, presumably one who is excellent defensively.

Transmogrified Tiger · November 20, 2006

Lucky? So now every good thing Hendry does is only because of luck? It was a good strategy and it paid off in spades for him.

The level of constant complaining on this topic is mind boggling. The Cubs just went out and signed arguably the top free agent offensive player available and all some of you can do is make flimsy arguments as to why he should have went in another direction.

If Hendry fails to sign Soriano....and Drew, Lugo, and CLee all sign with other teams, every member of this board mercilessly piles upon Hendry and claims he can't sign the "big" FA. Out of the 4 players listed there are only TWO that have even expressed an interest in playing for the North Side, Soriano and CLee. Lugo has been rumored to want to play for the Mets and what makes anyone on the board think that Drew would choose the Cubs over the Red Sox? FYI not every free agent wants to come to Wrigley Field.

NOT EVERYONE HOLDS THE OPPOSITE/NEGATIVE OPINION ON EVERY TOPIC

jjgman21 · November 20, 2006

I see your point, but bringing up a player before he is ready can and does usually hurt the players development, regardless of whether he gets steady PT or not. Pie hasn't learned to hit AAA sliders yet, sticking him in a position where he has to hit NL sliders?

you would have been better served using Pagan in your hypo. not that I agree it is necessarily true.

A long time of extended play in the majors getting his feet wet for 40 games isnt going to kill his development. Now riding the pine here? that's different.

neither of us knows for sure whether it will or not. you however are willing to say definitively that it won't, which is arrogant. I on the other hand think it might, and don't think bringing him up before he is ready is a good idea under any circumstances.

third eye · November 20, 2006

I apologize if this has already been posted (havent been able to go through 50 pages of commentary), but I'm guessing that this contract was thrown out there as a very strong but exploding offer to Soriano's agent. Complete speculation on my part, but it may have been a situation where the offer, at this size was only on the table briefly to avoid a bidding war, and specifically, to avoid a repeat of the furcal situation from last year. Also, if it is true that only the first six years are guaranteed, then I am OK with this. Now I had no idea the offer would ever get that close to the beltran deal. But after complaining for years that the Cubs never signed top free agents, I cant complain about this at all. It's been said previously but this contract is only a problem if it completely prohibits any further signings this year. I'm not conviced that it will. In terms of dead weight from this contract in Soriano's late 30's, you might only have to pick up half of his contract in later years if the club is trully in the tanks and he is traded to a contender. Yes it is a risk, but at least there is further run producing depth (No, I'm not going to go toe-to-toe with the sabrematricians on this board about the predictability of this) on this team in case one of the big bats goes down with injury again. I personally think that greater overall stats over the course of an entire year trump selective splits. Interesting debate on the whole though...

Soul · November 20, 2006

I think Soriano is a good player, but right now he doesn't have a position to play. I'll reserve judgment on that until I see him in the field. I am happy they got another run producer, but the cost is prohibitivie, IMO.

I hope the Cubs can still get Drew for CF and trade JJ. If Hendry can do that I will sign his praises until the next time he acquires a player. Then I will evaluate that trade on its own merit.

Are you serious? Personally, I think what you just said is completely, utterly absurd. Soriano, regardless of what team he's on, has a position to play. Just MO. Let's just have fun with this, shall we?

If what people are saying is true, i.e., the Cubs are penciling him in for RF, then I worry about it. If he's replacing Murton in LF, then I hope the Cubs can get a RFer. If he's in CF, then I worry.

We know he is terrible at 2nd, but the Cubs have signed DeRosa. Even with the poor defense at 2nd, that's where I'd play him.

I know it is self-evident, but the point is making a good team, not signing a collection of good players and moving them around.

I understand what you're saying, but teams move players around all the time. Pujols played 3B, LF and then 1B for example. Worked out pretty well for the Cards.

Soriano is an extraordinary offensive player. Given his defensive weaknesses, I think it's a good thing he can be moved around.

Edited November 20, 2006 by Soul

HoopsCubs · November 20, 2006

http://www.dailyherald.com/story.asp?id=251874

I apologize if this link was already included - I couldn't read all 50+ pages.

Mr. Miles writes that the Cubs envision Soriano leading off and playing RF, with Jacque moving to CF.

I still personally think they're going to move Jones to an NL West or AL West team. I'm not seeing moving him to Cleveland as part of a package to get Westbrook, but that's just my speculation.

Rob · November 20, 2006

no worries on the quote issue, they are long behind us

I disagree, the critics (me, KC, TT, Jon, Navin, and Rob) are using all the information taht is available to make our claim. We do not propose to know everything or be able to predict what will happen in the future. As I have stated a few times before, if Drew is a lock to Boston, Lee is a lock to Houston, and Theo wont trade us Manny then Sori is a must sign.

And if Theo and JP think that acquiring Izturis will help their team, they will do it, regardless of how bad of a position we are in. With whats gone on in this market, Izturis' value is at worst a bucket of balls. And I forget who it was in the Cleveland org (Shapiro?), but there was a quote that said they watched video on every ball that was hit to ss and they believed that Peraltas range was horrendous. There have been claims that they are looking for a backup SS, presumably one who is excellent defensively.

Yeah, I'll go ahead and say it too.

If we were going to be unable to sign Drew or make a trade for a guy like Manny or ARod... this would be an essential move. I'm just upset we went straight to a 'A-' option rather than go for the A or A+ guys.

And yeah, Shapiro had some very nasty things to say bout Peralta's range and that he was looking for an excellent defensive SS to back him up.

Butterscup1679666578 · November 20, 2006

Lucky? So now every good thing Hendry does is only because of luck? It was a good strategy and it paid off in spades for him.

The level of constant complaining on this topic is mind boggling. The Cubs just went out and signed arguably the top free agent offensive player available and all some of you can do is make flimsy arguments as to why he should have went in another direction.

If Hendry fails to sign Soriano....and Drew, Lugo, and CLee all sign with other teams, every member of this board mercilessly piles upon Hendry and claims he can't sign the "big" FA. Out of the 4 players listed there are only TWO that have even expressed an interest in playing for the North Side, Soriano and CLee. Lugo has been rumored to want to play for the Mets and what makes anyone on the board think that Drew would choose the Cubs over the Red Sox? FYI not every free agent wants to come to Wrigley Field.

NOT EVERYONE HOLDS THE OPPOSITE/NEGATIVE OPINION ON EVERY TOPIC
NOT EVERYONE HOLDS THE OPPOSITE/NEGATIVE OPINION ON EVERY TOPIC
NOT EVERYONE HOLDS THE OPPOSITE/NEGATIVE OPINION ON EVERY TOPIC
NOT EVERYONE HOLDS THE OPPOSITE/NEGATIVE OPINION ON EVERY TOPIC
NOT EVERYONE HOLDS THE OPPOSITE/NEGATIVE OPINION ON EVERY TOPIC
NOT EVERYONE HOLDS THE OPPOSITE/NEGATIVE OPINION ON EVERY TOPIC
NOT EVERYONE HOLDS THE OPPOSITE/NEGATIVE OPINION ON EVERY TOPIC
NOT EVERYONE HOLDS THE OPPOSITE/NEGATIVE OPINION ON EVERY TOPIC
NOT EVERYONE HOLDS THE OPPOSITE/NEGATIVE OPINION ON EVERY TOPIC

Deep breath TT ;)

vance_the_cubs_fan · November 20, 2006

Ok, I just got back from the Cowboys game. (Go Cowboys!) This thread is 39 pages long. Cliff Notes Please!

Mephistopheles · November 20, 2006

well damn he cant handle AA sliders either. Let's put him there. AAA might be hurting his development!

Ok, I just got back from the Cowboys game. (Go Cowboys!) This thread is 39 pages long. Cliff Notes Please!

Signing Lugo instead of Soriano would have made the Cubs a better team on the field

jjgman21 · November 20, 2006

I think the most positive aspect of the signing is the timing.With the exception of Lee, Drew and a few others, the FA talent drops off dramatically. With this signing so early, if Lee and Drew can sign somewhere soon, it could put some teams behind the 8 ball. Needing to improve, they may go for a trade that they wouln't normally do. I think this is where Hendry will wheel and deal. I like our position as we stand.

as much as I don't like the terms, this is an excellent post. the Cubs are now in the drivers seat and able to do some cherry picking.

Soriano in center and Craig Wilson platooning with Jones anybody?

Soul · November 20, 2006

Ok, I just got back from the Cowboys game. (Go Cowboys!) This thread is 39 pages long. Cliff Notes Please!

Soriano to Cubs, 8 years/135 million.

Illini Iceman · November 20, 2006

If Hendry is so willing to ridiculously overspend for a player worse than Ramirez, why did he take a huge gamble in risking losing Aramis and not offer him more money?
And we know that Hendry was close to losing Aramis how?
About three or four more hours and Ramirez would have either signed for at least $20 million more than what Hendry offered or would be considering multiple offers for even more money. Ramirez and his agent knew that Hendry was significantly low-balling Aramis in terms of market value. Even at the very end Jim didn't bump up his price that much. I'd give more credit to Ramirez for staying than for Hendry keeping him.

Of course, because Lord knows some people around here would rather walk on a bed of hot nails than give Hendry any credit.
Hendry got lucky. Big time. All he had to do was throw in some more cash, probably as little as $1 million a year, and Ramirez doesn't wait until Sunday to sign. Yet he decided to take a huge gamble. It was not a good strategy.

again, the armchair GM'ing. we have no idea what happened during the course of those negotiations. for all we know, the deal was in place for days and only took until Sunday due to logistical reasons.
Even the post-deal quotes point to the exact opposite. And Jim bumped up his offer a few million dollars in the final 24 hours of negotiation, so there was no deal in place.

Just a complete guess on my behalf, but it is possible that ARam left a few million per year on the table and told Hendry that he would do so if Hendry committed to use it to make sure he signed Soriano? They are both from the DR so they probably know each other and I could see ARam wanting him on the team. Just a thought.

Butterscup1679666578 · November 20, 2006

Ok, I just got back from the Cowboys game. (Go Cowboys!) This thread is 39 pages long. Cliff Notes Please!

Soriano to Cubs, 8 years/135 million.

However, no one knows if it's a full 8 years, or option years at the end.

Jon · November 20, 2006

Todd will be lucky to get more than a one year deal, with no position to play.

And the fact his numbers are even in the same ballpark as Soriano's while he'd be lucky to get a contract at all doesn't scare you?
Selectivity of numbers used again. He has no real position, doesn't produce runs, can't run but whatever. I think people have hired him because of potential and dumped him because he doesn't really produce.
When can we expect you to stop bringing up Walker for no reason? 2008? 2009? Let me know so I can circle the date on my calendar.

Or maybe we can just fully establish the Todd Walker scale and compare every potential target for years to come against your questionable impressions of Walker's production. Tim may have some room on the front page for it.

In fairness, Rob's the one who started by using Walker as the mystery player in his comparison.

Oh, I'm aware. He certainly has in other threads, though, and apparently can only justify Soriano's deal/reputation by putting down Walker. And that's been going on for a good year now.

WrigleyField 22 · November 20, 2006

Ok, I just got back from the Cowboys game. (Go Cowboys!) This thread is 39 pages long. Cliff Notes Please!

Likely only 5 or 6 years guaranteed ($90M-ish)

Transmogrified Tiger · November 20, 2006

Deep breath TT ;)

It was only copy/paste, had this come later in the week when boredom had fully set in though.....

Jazz · November 20, 2006

Ok, I just got back from the Cowboys game. (Go Cowboys!) This thread is 39 pages long. Cliff Notes Please!

Soriano to Cubs, 8 years/135 million.

Don't forget 2-3 of those years are options. Don't give him a heart attack now.

Soul · November 20, 2006

Ok, I just got back from the Cowboys game. (Go Cowboys!) This thread is 39 pages long. Cliff Notes Please!

Soriano to Cubs, 8 years/135 million.

Don't forget 2-3 of those years are options. Don't give him a heart attack now.

He hasn't responded. You OK, Vance? 8)

Rob · November 20, 2006

Ok, I just got back from the Cowboys game. (Go Cowboys!) This thread is 39 pages long. Cliff Notes Please!

Pending a physical Soriano is a Cub. 8 years for 136 looks to be the maximum years/money. Rumors around that the last 2-3 years might be option years (no idea whose) and that approx 90 mil is guaranteed.

Everybody who doesn't like the signing is negative and Jim Hendry just can't get the props he deserves.

Everybody who does like the signing doesn't understand statistics or finances and needs 10 more years of school.

I'm bitter and sarcastic (for the last few comments at least)

XZero771679666304 · November 20, 2006

Has it been established if any/how many of the 8 years are option years?

Butterscup1679666578 · November 20, 2006

Deep breath TT ;)

It was only copy/paste, had this come later in the week when boredom had fully set in though.....

Ha, that's where we differ. I'm bored already. I'm hoping for more Cubs moves this week to keep me occupied. ;)

Cubs sign Soriano

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