Cubs sign Soriano

[jjgman21]

What would Jim and the Cubs have to do to get a, "good job" from this board? I wonder how people would have reacted if Soriano had gone to the Angles. I'm guessing it would have been a lot of, "once again, Hendry misses the boat...." Enjoy the moment - we got a top tier free agent and still have 15-20 million to spend on pitching.

 

Excellent!!

 

not excellent. there are varying degrees of opinions on every transaction. I hate the signing and am arguing as vigorously as anyone in defense of Hendry.

 

every transaction is going to be criticized. I remember on the espn board people complaining about letting Bobby Hill go for that lazy bum Ramirez.

[Jon]

If Hendry is so willing to ridiculously overspend for a player worse than Ramirez, why did he take a huge gamble in risking losing Aramis and not offer him more money?

And we know that Hendry was close to losing Aramis how?

About three or four more hours and Ramirez would have either signed for at least $20 million more than what Hendry offered or would be considering multiple offers for even more money. Ramirez and his agent knew that Hendry was significantly low-balling Aramis in terms of market value. Even at the very end Jim didn't bump up his price that much. I'd give more credit to Ramirez for staying than for Hendry keeping him.

 

Of course, because Lord knows some people around here would rather walk on a bed of hot nails than give Hendry any credit.

Hendry got lucky. Big time. All he had to do was throw in some more cash, probably as little as $1 million a year, and Ramirez doesn't wait until Sunday to sign. Yet he decided to take a huge gamble. It was not a good strategy.

 

again, the armchair GM'ing. we have no idea what happened during the course of those negotiations. for all we know, the deal was in place for days and only took until Sunday due to logistical reasons.

Even the post-deal quotes point to the exact opposite. And Jim bumped up his offer a few million dollars in the final 24 hours of negotiation, so there was no deal in place.

 

Every single quote I've seen indicates that both parties moved some towards the end. Is it really fair to say that "Jim bumped his offer a few million in the final 24 hours" with NO mention of Aramis coming down off of his demands when you don't really know what each party gave at the end?

 

Answer: No, you don't.

Aramis' choice was down to signing with the Cubs or going elsewhere for $20-$30 million more. Hendry knew that. Jim raised his final offer roughly $3 million at the end but easily could have done much more, avoiding looking like he was low-balling Aramis and wasn't that set on keeping him. It wasn't a case of meeting in the middle. It was Aramis' decision to turn down a lot of money to stay in Chicago.

[nilodnayr]

But it certainly makes it a lot closer than your original analysis would have people believe, doesn't it?

 

Considering I was using Lugo's career EqA of .265 when doing the estimations, something he hasn't been as bad as since 2002, not really.

 

I'm not going to go back to look but I believe the Lugo>2006 ss was 11 runs better than Sori>2006 CF, so yeah those 9 runs that Cesar adds to ss, still shows that even with money being equal lugo would improve the team more than sori.

[Mark Priors Calves]

Somebody asked about World Series odds a few pages ago. The Cubs are currently listed as 30-1, the same as the Astros and Padres.

[Rob]

What does Todd Walker have to do with anything w/Soriano?

 

Got me. someone was laughingly trying to compare their numbers.

 

Hell, you're the one that brought him up, I guess that gives me the answer right there.

 

Actually, I brought him up.

 

I thought it was hilarious that Walker outperformed Soriano in 04 and 05 while they both played the same position, even though Soriano was in Texas in a better hitter's park than Wrigley.

 

I'm not all that convinced three years of age and a career year prior to free agency is worth 130 million over 8 years more than Walker. But I guess that's an inconsequential concern worth being laughed over.

 

Ha ha! Freaking hilarious!

 

:roll:

[oldcubsfan]

What would Jim and the Cubs have to do to get a, "good job" from this board? I wonder how people would have reacted if Soriano had gone to the Angles. I'm guessing it would have been a lot of, "once again, Hendry misses the boat...." Enjoy the moment - we got a top tier free agent and still have 15-20 million to spend on pitching.

 

Excellent!!

 

not excellent. there are varying degrees of opinions on every transaction. I hate the signing and am arguing as vigorously as anyone in defense of Hendry.

 

every transaction is going to be criticized. I remember on the espn board people complaining about letting Bobby Hill go for that lazy bum Ramirez.

That same silly argument was made on this board also.

[jjgman21]

Has anyone gone through the number realized that JD Drew in 120 games does more for the Cubs in CF than Alfonso Soriano in 162 games if the Cubs put Felix Pie in CF the other 42 games?

 

does anyone realize that would trash Pie's development completely? did anyone contemplate that maybe this strong push for Soriano was due to Drew's demands shooting up considerably the past few days?

[CubinNY]

What would Jim and the Cubs have to do to get a, "good job" from this board? I wonder how people would have reacted if Soriano had gone to the Angles. I'm guessing it would have been a lot of, "once again, Hendry misses the boat...." Enjoy the moment - we got a top tier free agent and still have 15-20 million to spend on pitching.

 

Hendry got plenty of praise when he resigned Aramis, he got praise when he resigned Lee last year. He got praise for signing Wood to a good deal. If and when he locks up Z he will get praise.

 

I think he is getting praise by many on this board for the Soriano signing.

 

It is not fair to this community for a few people to make such generalizations.

 

Hendry has long ago worn out whatever good will I had for him. But I praised Hendry after the signing of Aramis and Lee.

 

I think Soriano is a good player, but right now he doesn't have a position to play. I'll reserve judgment on that until I see him in the field. I am happy they got another run producer, but the cost is prohibitivie, IMO.

 

I hope the Cubs can still get Drew for CF and trade JJ. If Hendry can do that I will sign his praises until the next time he acquires a player. Then I will evaluate that trade on its own merit.

[CUBZ99]

Has anyone gone through the number realized that JD Drew in 120 games does more for the Cubs in CF than Alfonso Soriano in 162 games if the Cubs put Felix Pie in CF the other 42 games?

 

Now thats just ridiculous. I realize you like Drew, but lets try dealing in reality.

[Mephistopheles]

does anyone realize that would trash Pie's development completely? did anyone contemplate that maybe this strong push for Soriano was due to Drew's demands shooting up considerably the past few days?

 

not really because it's an injury, meaning continuous playing time. Not the disjointed crap Murton and Cedeno got in 2005.[/b]

[CubinNY]

Has anyone gone through the number realized that JD Drew in 120 games does more for the Cubs in CF than Alfonso Soriano in 162 games if the Cubs put Felix Pie in CF the other 42 games?

 

does anyone realize that would trash Pie's development completely? did anyone contemplate that maybe this strong push for Soriano was due to Drew's demands shooting up considerably the past few days?

 

I think Pie is talented enough that he could handle any position in the outfield.

[Jon]

Todd will be lucky to get more than a one year deal, with no position to play.

 

And the fact his numbers are even in the same ballpark as Soriano's while he'd be lucky to get a contract at all doesn't scare you?

Selectivity of numbers used again. He has no real position, doesn't produce runs, can't run but whatever. I think people have hired him because of potential and dumped him because he doesn't really produce.

When can we expect you to stop bringing up Walker for no reason? 2008? 2009? Let me know so I can circle the date on my calendar.

 

Or maybe we can just fully establish the Todd Walker scale and compare every potential target for years to come against your questionable impressions of Walker's production. Tim may have some room on the front page for it.

[CUBZ99]

Has anyone gone through the number realized that JD Drew in 120 games does more for the Cubs in CF than Alfonso Soriano in 162 games if the Cubs put Felix Pie in CF the other 42 games?

 

does anyone realize that would trash Pie's development completely? did anyone contemplate that maybe this strong push for Soriano was due to Drew's demands shooting up considerably the past few days?

 

Or possibly that Hendry doesn't think Drew would want to come to Chicago?

[nilodnayr]

Soriano is bad, we shouldn't have signed him. I won't be saying this if Soriano repeats his #'s next year. Oh wait, that's right. He won't. Because I am psychic.

 

And you are? What if he repeats his 2005 and 2004 numbers? Wouldnt it be better to sign a guy who has great numbers in 2006, 2005, and 2004, like Drew? Especially since he will be cheaper and sign to a shorter contract?

 

That paragraph right there sums up our point (as well as KC's marginal EqA analysis).

 

Or his 2001, 2002, 2003, or 2006 #'s?

 

I LIKE drew. However, I LIKE Soriano. I LIKE that the promise that John Mcdunnough made is coming true. It's TIME to win for the Fans, that was John's MO.

 

On drew, you have to take into account he will miss atleast 40 games. So then you have to average his #'s out with whoever is replacing him for those 40 games. I really just don't see the point some of you are arguing. Ok I do see the point. I just don't know why such a big deal is being made about picking apart #'s and being so negative about Soriano. I see Soriano as a sign for CHANGE in the Cubs orginazation.

 

Why not stop picking apart soriano's #'s and instead talk about what this means for the Cubs?

 

Just this summer. . . Our manager was terrible, our coaching staff couldn't teach a stick to hit, our owners would never pay for a winner, and they would never sell the Cubs to someone who WOULD.

 

Now we are at. . . Our manager is great, our coaching staff is great, our owner wants to give us a winner, and the Cubs might even be sold.

 

There's no reason for negativity now, Cubs fans. This is a happy time to be a Cubs fan. .

 

Why do you have to take into acount that Drew will miss at least 40 games? Again, for the past 3 years he has disproved the thought that he is a fragile player. What does he have to do to overcome that stigma?

 

Why do you not take into account that Drew might not want to play for the Cubs? Is there something that we are all missing in regard with J.D. Drew's desire to play for the Cubs?

 

Do you have inside information proving otherwise? If you do, please share. Fact is, players usually sign where the money is at and if not close to the top money for a team they believe they can win with. Despite last year, the cubs are probably right with the bosox on both accounts.

[Soul]

Todd will be lucky to get more than a one year deal, with no position to play.

 

And the fact his numbers are even in the same ballpark as Soriano's while he'd be lucky to get a contract at all doesn't scare you?

 

It makes me angry that I'm not a GM.

 

Are you talking about Todd *Walker*???

 

.278/.356/.398 9HR 53RBI

 

Soriano: .277/.351/.560 46HR 95RBI 40+SB

 

I fail to see how they are in the same ballpark. Not at all. Soriano is also a multiple all-star and has been each year since his rookie year.

 

I don't get it. There's no comparison whatsoever. Soriano is a great player in his prime. Walker's got one foot out of the league, IMO. We can argue about the deal, but Soriano is such a quality pick up it isn't even funny.

[Mephistopheles]

Now thats just ridiculous. I realize you like Drew, but lets try dealing in reality.

 

It's not ridiculous.

 

Pierre to Soriano for 526 outs = + 30 runs

Pierre to JD Drew for (120/162)*526 outs = + 37 runs

 

Sure, there is a margin for error. Like some of those displaced outs from Drew having a higher OBP going to scrubs like Derrek Lee and Aramis Ramirez. Regardless, at the worst Drew for 120 games is the same as Soriano for 162 games.

 

And the assumption of Pie = Pierre

Edited November 20, 2006 by Mephistopheles

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Todd will be lucky to get more than a one year deal, with no position to play.

 

And the fact his numbers are even in the same ballpark as Soriano's while he'd be lucky to get a contract at all doesn't scare you?

Selectivity of numbers used again. He has no real position, doesn't produce runs, can't run but whatever. I think people have hired him because of potential and dumped him because he doesn't really produce.

When can we expect you to stop bringing up Walker for no reason? 2008? 2009? Let me know so I can circle the date on my calendar.

 

Or maybe we can just fully establish the Todd Walker scale and compare every potential target for years to come against your questionable impressions of Walker's production. Tim may have some room on the front page for it.

 

In fairness, Rob's the one who started by using Walker as the mystery player in his comparison.

[Vinewall]

I think Soriano is a good player, but right now he doesn't have a position to play. I'll reserve judgment on that until I see him in the field. I am happy they got another run producer, but the cost is prohibitivie, IMO.

 

I hope the Cubs can still get Drew for CF and trade JJ. If Hendry can do that I will sign his praises until the next time he acquires a player. Then I will evaluate that trade on its own merit.

 

Are you serious? Personally, I think what you just said is completely, utterly absurd. Soriano, regardless of what team he's on, has a position to play. Just MO. Let's just have fun with this, shall we?

[Soul]

Has anyone gone through the number realized that JD Drew in 120 games does more for the Cubs in CF than Alfonso Soriano in 162 games if the Cubs put Felix Pie in CF the other 42 games?

 

does anyone realize that would trash Pie's development completely? did anyone contemplate that maybe this strong push for Soriano was due to Drew's demands shooting up considerably the past few days?

 

I think Pie is talented enough that he could handle any position in the outfield.

 

I think it's a 50/50 crapshoot whether Pie will ever even be a solid major league player.

[oldcubsfan]

Todd will be lucky to get more than a one year deal, with no position to play.

 

And the fact his numbers are even in the same ballpark as Soriano's while he'd be lucky to get a contract at all doesn't scare you?

Selectivity of numbers used again. He has no real position, doesn't produce runs, can't run but whatever. I think people have hired him because of potential and dumped him because he doesn't really produce.

When can we expect you to stop bringing up Walker for no reason? 2008? 2009? Let me know so I can circle the date on my calendar.

 

Or maybe we can just fully establish the Todd Walker scale and compare every potential target for years to come against your questionable impressions of Walker's production. Tim may have some room on the front page for it.

I only responded to a post talking about Walker's numbers and Soriano's. If that offends you, I's sorry.

[jjgman21]

does anyone realize that would trash Pie's development completely? did anyone contemplate that maybe this strong push for Soriano was due to Drew's demands shooting up considerably the past few days?

 

not really because it's an injury, meaning continuous playing time. Not the disjointed crap Murton and Cedeno got in 2005.[/b]

 

I see your point, but bringing up a player before he is ready can and does usually hurt the players development, regardless of whether he gets steady PT or not. Pie hasn't learned to hit AAA sliders yet, sticking him in a position where he has to hit NL sliders?

 

you would have been better served using Pagan in your hypo. not that I agree it is necessarily true.

[Rob]

In fairness, Rob's the one who started by using Walker as the mystery player in his comparison.

 

Yeah, seriously.

 

It's funny, people are taking my comparison of Walker to Soriano and twisting it into an absolute that I'm claiming Walker is better or close enough to be worth the same amount... all I was pointing out is that Soriano isn't 130 million dollars better.

 

At the same time, people are blaming the other guy for even bringing it up.

 

Craziness.

[cubweiser03]

50.

Someones gotta say it and have a little fun with this today. He's hitting 50 HR next year. :)

[Mizzou]

Lucky? So now every good thing Hendry does is only because of luck? It was a good strategy and it paid off in spades for him.

 

The level of constant complaining on this topic is mind boggling. The Cubs just went out and signed arguably the top free agent offensive player available and all some of you can do is make flimsy arguments as to why he should have went in another direction.

 

If Hendry fails to sign Soriano....and Drew, Lugo, and CLee all sign with other teams, every member of this board mercilessly piles upon Hendry and claims he can't sign the "big" FA. Out of the 4 players listed there are only TWO that have even expressed an interest in playing for the North Side, Soriano and CLee. Lugo has been rumored to want to play for the Mets and what makes anyone on the board think that Drew would choose the Cubs over the Red Sox? FYI not every free agent wants to come to Wrigley Field.

Nice post.

[Mephistopheles]

I see your point, but bringing up a player before he is ready can and does usually hurt the players development, regardless of whether he gets steady PT or not. Pie hasn't learned to hit AAA sliders yet, sticking him in a position where he has to hit NL sliders?

 

you would have been better served using Pagan in your hypo. not that I agree it is necessarily true.

 

A long time of extended play in the majors getting his feet wet for 40 games isnt going to kill his development. Now riding the pine here? that's different.