Pie for Willis

[Pinktermite]

I'm an advocate of giving something up to get Dontrelle. He's accomplished more than Prior, he's healthier...it seems more people think it's heinous to sell off prior (as if we could trade him now anyway) than it is to give up a prospect (Pie) who may or may not pan out.

 

Murton? I would hesitate more to give him up, since he might wind up the second coming of Palmeiro, who supposedly wasn't going to hit for (steriod induced) power.

[rjchapma]

thank you someone who finally sees what im saying.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

you r basing your argument on one year. If you dont remember last year he was in the Cy young race all year. The only reason he didnt win was he was on a bad team. He is a very good pitcher who needs to pitch on a better team now.

 

He was really good last year (2005), but barely average the year before, and just slightly above average this past season (2006). Being on a "bad" team (83-79) was not the only reason he didn't win.

[NorthsideAvenger]

I'm an advocate of giving something up to get Dontrelle. He's accomplished more than Prior, he's healthier...it seems more people think it's heinous to sell off prior (as if we could trade him now anyway) than it is to give up a prospect (Pie) who may or may not pan out.

 

Murton? I would hesitate more to give him up, since he might wind up the second coming of Palmeiro, who supposedly wasn't going to hit for (steriod induced) power.

 

There is a certain value for Willis, but his value isn't Murton and Pie. Perhaps Murton/Marshall, or Pie/Mateo/Ohman, and those two are clearly stretching his value. I like Willis, but I'm not ready to give up a good package for him.

[goonys evil twin]

I completly disagree with what you guys r saying. For some reason you guys r riding high a platoon outfielder and a prospect who we tried to deal in the Tejada deal last year. They wouldnt even take prior and him in the deal and most of you guys still think prior is worth alot. WE(the cubs) Have no pitching on our team he is probably one of the top 3 lefties in baseball. Who else would you put on that list?

 

Rating him among lefties is pointless. What matters is how good a pitcher he is, not how good a lefty. Calling Murton a platoon guy is absurd. And the Tejada trade point is, well, pointless.

 

I don't have a list of all the lefties in the game, but obviously Santana is better. Buerhle is usually better. Pettite is as good, and often better. Rogers is better. Verlander is probably better, Robertson might be better. Liriano, if healthy, is better. Kazmir is better. Pittsburgh has a couple guys who could easily become better with a little development. Cole Hamels will probably become better.

 

There is a long list of quality LH pitchers. I'm not saying I'd want all of them over Willis, because some are near the end. But many are clearly better, and a good bunch are far more attractive targets, even if they are unavailable.

 

 

Maybe we don't have much pitching, but we don't have much offense either. Trading Murton, already above average and on his way to being pretty good, along with Pie and a pitching prospect would be plain old stupid.

[Guest]

I could have sworn verlander was pitching right-handed in the playoffs - maybe that's why he struggled? :)

[Transmogrified Tiger]

NITPICK: Verlander is a RHP

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I just don't think the Cubs could outbid other teams if Willis became available.

 

I don't share this opinion. Other teams might have more to offer, but that doesn't mean they will be willing to offer it. The best prospects usually never even enter the discussion for trades.

 

Somebody mentioned Pie and Murton, and that's a huge haul for any team. An already above average major league hitter looking to improve, and a high ceiling very young talent is more than most teams would offer for most players.

I agree with goony. Pie and Murton are a lot to give up and likely more than many other teams would offer, but not necessarily could offer.

 

However, that's also more than I would offer. I don't like Willis enough to give up Pie to get him, much less Murton and Pie.

 

Considering the contract Zito is about to get I think it'd take more than Pie and Murton. There just isn't a lot of cheap pitching out there. BTW, Willis might be overrated but he's still a very good young pitcher who had stretches of dominance.

[frostwyrm]

If it were my call I'd keep Murton and Pie simply because they make 2008 look a lot more promising. Selling the farm for a run in 2007 is a bad idea IMO. I think we're most likely a year away from contending.

[CubsWin]

If it were my call I'd keep Murton and Pie simply because they make 2008 look a lot more promising. Selling the farm for a run in 2007 is a bad idea IMO. I think we're most likely a year away from contending.

I agree. I never like to give up on the next two or three years just to improve my chances in the upcoming season. Perhaps thats a flawed philosophy, but its mine.

 

I think the Cubs are most likely a year away from contending as well unless Jim is able to pull off some stunning moves this off season. The Cubs could contend in '07, but its going to take a lot of things going right.

 

Acquire at least one impact bat.

Acquire at least one top of the rotation starter.

Acquire at least one other solid, veteran starter without health issues.

Resign Aramis Ramirez.

Resign Wade Miller or someone else who can compete for the 5th starter spot.

 

Not as necessary, but I'd like to see the Cubs sign Julio Lugo and extend Z as well.

 

Anyway, its not likely all of those things come to pass.

 

While it is true that Pie may still turn out to be only a mediocre major leaguer, it is a pretty solid bet that he will be more than that. His second half in AAA last season as a 21-year-old was remarkable. This guy has got a chance at being something special.

[BigbadB]

Yeah, I'm as high on Pie as CubsWin appears to be. I might look at someone that would help Pie get slowly groomed into the everyday job in CF, but I wouldn't have qualms just sticking him out there either.

 

Focus on the positions that won't block Pie. Trade for Burrell, Crawford, or Drew. Sign Soriano. Pick up Lugo. Pick up 2 more pitchers. Secure Aramis and Miller and call it a day. The pitching staff will still make or break this team in 2007.

 

There are pitching prospects that can be moved in trade along with relievers and Jacque Jones.

[wastra]

I think the problem with Willis is that he's a good pitcher who will cost as much as a great pitcher to get and keep. Obviously if you can get him cheap, you're VERY happy to have him. But while some 'lesser' pitchers may not have the name recognition, you can likely get the same level of performance elsewhere for a lot less. And we may be getting it from a certain Mr. Hill before long (if you want to stick to lefties).

 

Overpaying for players is so typical fo this franchise that I almost expect Hendry to announce he's already made the pie and murton for Willis deal. :wink:

[goonys evil twin]

Considering the contract Zito is about to get I think it'd take more than Pie and Murton. There just isn't a lot of cheap pitching out there. BTW, Willis might be overrated but he's still a very good young pitcher who had stretches of dominance.

 

Zito's free agent contract offers have absolutely nothing to do with how much talent it would cost to get Willis in a trade. Financial cost and player talent cost are not one in the same. The fact that Willis is going to soon cost Florida more than they can afford actually decreases his trade value, because they pretty much have to trade him.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Considering the contract Zito is about to get I think it'd take more than Pie and Murton. There just isn't a lot of cheap pitching out there. BTW, Willis might be overrated but he's still a very good young pitcher who had stretches of dominance.

 

Zito's free agent contract offers have absolutely nothing to do with how much talent it would cost to get Willis in a trade. Financial cost and player talent cost are not one in the same. The fact that Willis is going to soon cost Florida more than they can afford actually decreases his trade value, because they pretty much have to trade him.

 

I agree. If anything, Zito's next contract would lower the demands for Dontrelle.

[rjchapma]

R u kidding me. first off Willis is like 26 I think at the oldest. Secondly you cant say that you can just take out the fact that hes a left hander because lefties are much harder to set lineups against. Secondly you r ranking petitte better who lost the most games in the major leagues last year, Rogers cheats and is probbly on roids, Liriono most likely will be better but u cant say hes better right now. Ill give you Zito, and obviously Santana, but Kazmir, pirates pitchers dude come on.

[rjchapma]

plus we need the pitching so whoever is against requiring a starter who is pretty good is retarted no offense.

[goonys evil twin]

plus we need the pitching so whoever is against requiring a starter who is pretty good is retarted no offense.

 

It doesn't get much more ignorant than this.

[fromthestretch]

R u kidding me. first off Willis is like 26 I think at the oldest. Secondly you cant say that you can just take out the fact that hes a left hander because lefties are much harder to set lineups against. Secondly you r ranking petitte better who lost the most games in the major leagues last year, Rogers cheats and is probbly on roids, Liriono most likely will be better but u cant say hes better right now. Ill give you Zito, and obviously Santana, but Kazmir, pirates pitchers dude come on.

 

There are so many things wrong with this post, I'm not sure where to begin.

 

Pettitte didn't lose the most games in the majors. He didn't even lose the most games in the NL. The whole Rogers on roids thing is completely baseless. Liriano, if healthy, is much better than Willis. Kazmir, if healthy, is better than Willis.

 

Edited to add: If you're going to use losses to judge a pitcher (which I don't recommend), as you did with Pettitte, then perhaps you should look at how many games Willis lost this season.

Edited November 3, 2006 by grassbass

[Ding Dong Johnson]

R u kidding me. first off Willis is like 26 I think at the oldest. Secondly you cant say that you can just take out the fact that hes a left hander because lefties are much harder to set lineups against. Secondly you r ranking petitte better who lost the most games in the major leagues last year, Rogers cheats and is probbly on roids, Liriono most likely will be better but u cant say hes better right now. Ill give you Zito, and obviously Santana, but Kazmir, pirates pitchers dude come on.

 

I'm getting really confused trying to read what you have posted, but I think you said Liriano and Kazmir were not better than Dontrelle right now. Check again.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

R u kidding me. first off Willis is like 26 I think at the oldest. Secondly you cant say that you can just take out the fact that hes a left hander because lefties are much harder to set lineups against. Secondly you r ranking petitte better who lost the most games in the major leagues last year, Rogers cheats and is probbly on roids, Liriono most likely will be better but u cant say hes better right now. Ill give you Zito, and obviously Santana, but Kazmir, pirates pitchers dude come on.

 

This post is so full of fallacies, its comical.

 

There is absolutely no evidence Rogers is on steroids. I'd still take Willis over him, but there's no reason to bring that up.

 

Dontrelle's career ERA+ is 120. He's 24. Kazmir's career ERA+ is also 120 and he's 2 years younger than Dontrelle. Kazmir improved from 2005-2006, while Dontrelle showed a decline. Kazmir looks to be the better pitcher.

 

Zach Duke's career ERA+ is 119. Not much worse than Dontrelle. He's also a year younger. Duke did show a decline in 2006, so it's debateable as to who is better. He at least could be argued to be in the same class.

 

Gorzelanny posted a 119 ERA+ last season. It was only 11 starts, so he has a little bit more to prove.

 

Dontrelle is a good pitcher, but not elite. He could become that, but many believe with his delivery, he is a greater risk to decline than improve. He's charismatic and a name.

 

He likely would not be worth the players it would take to acquire him.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

plus we need the pitching so whoever is against requiring a starter who is pretty good is retarted no offense.

 

Did you mean "acquiring a starter" or just what should we "require" this starter to do?

 

I find the complete disregard for intelligent speech in a post which calls others [expletive], very ironic.

 

No offense.

 

Especially when you can't spell [expletive].

[Magnetic Curses]

plus we need the pitching so whoever is against requiring a starter who is pretty good is retarted no offense.

 

It doesn't get much more ignorant than this.

 

that was a laugh out louder, goony.

 

but i'm still firmly in the "requiring a starter" camp, though. make no mistake, retart.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

plus we need the pitching so whoever is against requiring a starter who is pretty good is retarted no offense.

 

It doesn't get much more ignorant than this.

 

that was a laugh out louder, goony.

 

but i'm still firmly in the "requiring a starter" camp, though. make no mistake, retart.

 

:lmao:

[Ding Dong Johnson]

plus we need the pitching so whoever is against requiring a starter who is pretty good is retarted no offense.

 

It doesn't get much more ignorant than this.

 

that was a laugh out louder, goony.

 

but i'm still firmly in the "requiring a starter" camp, though. make no mistake, retart.

 

Thanks, I just had some of my Coca-Cola shoot out of my nose.

[fromthestretch]

plus we need the pitching so whoever is against requiring a starter who is pretty good is retarted no offense.

 

It doesn't get much more ignorant than this.

 

that was a laugh out louder, goony.

 

but i'm still firmly in the "requiring a starter" camp, though. make no mistake, retart.

 

Thanks, I just had some of my Coca-Cola shoot out of my nose.

 

Pedro had a Coke and a smile.