Pierre Gone?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

:lol:

[NewUserName]

 

I do agree that Pierre's range is above average in CF. I don't know where some people are getting this idea that he stinks in the field. His reads on the ball are very solid. He tracks very well.

.

 

He doesn't "track" well. Whatever the hell that is. He relies on his speed. He breaks late to the ball and makes up for his late start with his speed. He often takes bad routs to balls. Because of this when he catches the ball he is rarely in a good position to throw the ball, altough that is not too big of a problem with his arm. He's never been a "great" CFer and rarely exhibits "good" CF skills.

 

I don't know who you've been whatching in CF but it hasn't been Pierre.

 

You don't know what "tracking the ball" is, but you claim to know that Pierre makes bad starts on the ball? Come on.

 

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

 

I do watch games and this is how I know he doesnt get good jumps or follow a straight line to get to the ball. Defense is hard to put stats on. You dont have to watch a lot of baseball to realize that Pierre doesnt get to balls that Jim Edmonds, Aundrew Jones or Mike Cameron get to though.

[RichHillIsABeast]

Pierre is a good player at 5-6M per season.

 

I'd have to disagree. He made 5.7m this year, and was a problem. His OPS+ of 81 (84 in 2005, 86 career) suggests his production is significantly below average, yet a 5-6m salary is significantly below. He's a below average player. The only value he gives is that he's not among the very worst. I would say, at best, he's worth a slightly below average salary, and that's only because there's a slight chance he'll get a little better.

 

Teams need production, and guys like Pierre just don't provide it. No reason to pay extra for that.

 

Pierre's value to a team isn't reflected in OPS+. Speed is his main contribution. Don't get me wrong, I don't love the guy, but he gets a lot of unfair bashing on this board (defensive range).

 

We definitely overpaid for his production - salary and 3 pitchers. The money doesn't bother me so much as the arms.

 

A leadoff hitter is great, but he needs to get on base consistently. Pierre just doesn't do that with his inability to take a walk. He tried. I saw him take what he thought was ball 4 a lot of times and walk back to the dugout with his head down. It's just not one of his skills.

 

Consistent production is important. Slumps happen to everyone, but Pierre seems to be developing a habit of starting slow. Not good.

[RichHillIsABeast]

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

You are quite wrong on all of your assumptions.

 

Only if you count Little League to be "baseball experience." :lol:

[NewUserName]

Bottom line Pierres 2 main assest Batting average and SB are offset by poor OBP and Caught stealings. He is AT BEST an okay defensive CFer. This is not enough to make up for being such a bad offensive player. I have said it before and will say it again. He is Omar Moreno at best.

[RichHillIsABeast]

 

I do agree that Pierre's range is above average in CF. I don't know where some people are getting this idea that he stinks in the field. His reads on the ball are very solid. He tracks very well.

.

 

He doesn't "track" well. Whatever the hell that is. He relies on his speed. He breaks late to the ball and makes up for his late start with his speed. He often takes bad routs to balls. Because of this when he catches the ball he is rarely in a good position to throw the ball, altough that is not too big of a problem with his arm. He's never been a "great" CFer and rarely exhibits "good" CF skills.

 

I don't know who you've been whatching in CF but it hasn't been Pierre.

 

You don't know what "tracking the ball" is, but you claim to know that Pierre makes bad starts on the ball? Come on.

 

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

 

I do watch games and this is how I know he doesnt get good jumps or follow a straight line to get to the ball. Defense is hard to put stats on. You dont have to watch a lot of baseball to realize that Pierre doesnt get to balls that Jim Edmonds, Aundrew Jones or Mike Cameron get to though.

 

I didn't say Pierre was a Gold Glover. You'd think he was a butcher to read what a lot of ppl here have said. That's just not true.

[CubinNY]

 

I do agree that Pierre's range is above average in CF. I don't know where some people are getting this idea that he stinks in the field. His reads on the ball are very solid. He tracks very well.

.

 

He doesn't "track" well. Whatever the hell that is. He relies on his speed. He breaks late to the ball and makes up for his late start with his speed. He often takes bad routs to balls. Because of this when he catches the ball he is rarely in a good position to throw the ball, altough that is not too big of a problem with his arm. He's never been a "great" CFer and rarely exhibits "good" CF skills.

 

I don't know who you've been whatching in CF but it hasn't been Pierre.

 

You don't know what "tracking the ball" is, but you claim to know that Pierre makes bad starts on the ball? Come on.

 

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

Who the hell are you to be making such claims?

 

How do you know I'm not an ex-big league ballplayer that got tired of the BS lines from people who try to sound "baseball smart".

 

How do you know I'm not some guy who tapes every Cubs game from both stations carrying the game so I can get different perspectives.

 

Words like tracking, ceiling, instincts, feel... etc., are nonsensical scoutspeak that means absolutely nothing.

 

The fact of the matter is that Peirre hesitates when the ball is hit. Sometimes he breaks back when he should break in. He is worse going to his glove side then his throwing side. When he does break he often loops around and catches balls low and not in a good throwing position.

 

I've watched Slappy and he is the exact opposite of someone like Jim Edmonds. Edmonds is a hot dog, but he knows how to play CF.

Edited October 20, 2006 by CubinNY

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I'm sorry we don't need to sign Pierre.

 

And to suggest that we ignore his cold start because we want to say his numbers since June indicate that he's better is ludicrous. His numbers for the season are similar to his numbers for 2005. My guess is the best OBP one can assume for Pierre in 2007 is around 330-335, and that's just not good for a lead-off hitter. Pierre is a one trick pony. I'd rather my players develop more than one trick. We should pass on Pierre. We could sign Alex Sanchez for a lot cheaper.

 

Pierre is just Willie Wilson part deux.

[XZero771679666304]

 

I do agree that Pierre's range is above average in CF. I don't know where some people are getting this idea that he stinks in the field. His reads on the ball are very solid. He tracks very well.

.

 

He doesn't "track" well. Whatever the hell that is. He relies on his speed. He breaks late to the ball and makes up for his late start with his speed. He often takes bad routs to balls. Because of this when he catches the ball he is rarely in a good position to throw the ball, altough that is not too big of a problem with his arm. He's never been a "great" CFer and rarely exhibits "good" CF skills.

 

I don't know who you've been whatching in CF but it hasn't been Pierre.

 

You don't know what "tracking the ball" is, but you claim to know that Pierre makes bad starts on the ball? Come on.

 

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

Who the hell are you to be making such claims?

 

How do you know I'm not an ex-big league ballplayer that got tired of the BS lines from people who try to sound "baseball smart".

 

How do you know I'm not some guy who tapes every Cubs game from both stations carrying the game so I can get different perspectives.

 

Words like tracking, ceiling, instincts, feel, and so are are nonsensical scoutspeak that means absolutely nothing.

 

The fact of the matter is that Peirre hesitates when the ball is hit. Sometimes he breaks back when he should break in. He is worse going to his glove side then his throwing side. When he does break he often loops around and catches balls low and not in a good throwing position.

 

I've watched Slappy and he is the exact opposite of someone like Jim Edmonds. Edmonds is a hot dog, but he knows how to play CF.

 

I agree with you for the most part, but tracking is not "nonsensical scoutspeak". It is how well you track and anticipate the flight of the ball, at least that is what it means to me.

 

Also, any outfielder's first movement on any flyball should be back, at least a step. It is far easier to break back and come in than to break in and go back.

[cubweiser03]

This thread is intense.

Whew.

 

I think Juan plays great D with his glove. His arm sucks big ones. I dont know the difference from a great jump and good jump, just a bad jump. That term is so overplayed. Just catch the damn ball. I prefer my CF to catch the ball more than a CF who is average with the glove than great with his arm. Thats just my personal preference. Corey was said to get slow jumps, i never believed it. He caught the ball in the in end, so what...he caught it. Call me a nut job but i dont a care about arms in CF unless you are Jim Edmonds or Andruw Jones (oh they could still catch, so the arm to me is bonus). I dont want Juan back because of his d. I dont want Juan back because there are better options. I do like his socks though.

[erik316wttn]

Although some don't believe in analyzing segments of seasons per say....

 

This guy was arguably the worst leadoff hitter in baseball during April and May. This was one of the factors that contributed to the Cubs start from hell.

 

1) If he was slumping that badly, he shouldn't have been in there. That's on Dusty.

 

2) What about the wretched June, July, August, and September? He had a pretty good last 4 months to lead the NL in hits.

[Andy]

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

You are quite wrong on all of your assumptions.

 

Only if you count Little League to be "baseball experience." :lol:

Dusty Baker: Lots of baseball experience

Tim McCarver: Lots of baseball experience

John Kruk: Lots of baseball experience

Tino Martinez: Lots of baseball experience

Joe Morgan: Lots of baseball experience

Steve Phillips: Lots of baseball experience

Hawk Harrelson: Lots of baseball experience

[RichHillIsABeast]

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

You are quite wrong on all of your assumptions.

 

Only if you count Little League to be "baseball experience." :lol:

Dusty Baker: Lots of baseball experience

Tim McCarver: Lots of baseball experience

John Kruk: Lots of baseball experience

Tino Martinez: Lots of baseball experience

Joe Morgan: Lots of baseball experience

Steve Phillips: Lots of baseball experience

Hawk Harrelson: Lots of baseball experience

 

We're not talking about offensive strategy or offensive vs. defensive value.

 

We're talking about how to play CF.

[Andy]

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

You are quite wrong on all of your assumptions.

 

Only if you count Little League to be "baseball experience." :lol:

Dusty Baker: Lots of baseball experience

Tim McCarver: Lots of baseball experience

John Kruk: Lots of baseball experience

Tino Martinez: Lots of baseball experience

Joe Morgan: Lots of baseball experience

Steve Phillips: Lots of baseball experience

Hawk Harrelson: Lots of baseball experience

 

We're not talking about offensive strategy or offensive vs. defensive value.

 

We're talking about how to play CF.

I don't believe anyone said "I can play CF better than Juan Pierre."

[RichHillIsABeast]

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

You are quite wrong on all of your assumptions.

 

Only if you count Little League to be "baseball experience." :lol:

Dusty Baker: Lots of baseball experience

Tim McCarver: Lots of baseball experience

John Kruk: Lots of baseball experience

Tino Martinez: Lots of baseball experience

Joe Morgan: Lots of baseball experience

Steve Phillips: Lots of baseball experience

Hawk Harrelson: Lots of baseball experience

 

We're not talking about offensive strategy or offensive vs. defensive value.

 

We're talking about how to play CF.

I don't believe anyone said "I can play CF better than Juan Pierre."

 

My dog has a stubby tail.

[TruffleShuffle]

I seriously wonder if some of you guys even watch the games (on tv or in person) or just follow the numbers and rip on players b/c it's popular. There certainly doesn't seem to be much baseball playing experience here, from the ridiculous claims some people make.

 

You are quite wrong on all of your assumptions.

 

Only if you count Little League to be "baseball experience." :lol:

Dusty Baker: Lots of baseball experience

Tim McCarver: Lots of baseball experience

John Kruk: Lots of baseball experience

Tino Martinez: Lots of baseball experience

Joe Morgan: Lots of baseball experience

Steve Phillips: Lots of baseball experience

Hawk Harrelson: Lots of baseball experience

 

Walt Jocketty and John Schuerholz - not a lot of baseball playing experience.

[frostwyrm]

I fully do not understand you people who think a throwing arm is unimportant for a CF. When an opposition runner tags up and scores easily on a shallow fly ball to CF do you not realize that's a serious problem? It's a run! It baffles me that anybody could ever consider a CF with an arm like Pierre's an excellent defender.

[Mephistopheles]

perhaps its because the scenario you just alluded to is a very rare event.

[NewUserName]

I dont think it really even makes a difference how good of a defensive CFer he is. It does not make up for the fact that he is a terrible offensive player. If he was Jim Edmonds in his prime as a defensive player he still would be in the bottom 3rd in the league as overal CFer because his offense is so bad. This does not even warrant a 5 mill a year contract let alone the 7 to 10 he may get.

[b_wiggy_66]

Heard on WGN the other night that Dave Kaplan said that Pierre had turned down a 3 year- 21 mil contract extension offer from the cubs. According to what Kaplan said on sports central last night, Pierre is looking for 36 mil over 4 years.

 

If this is true Bye-Bye Juan, in my mind your not worth half that.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

That also may be the reason Hendry has talked as if he doesn't expect Pierre back. My guess is Hendry wants Pierre, but won't pay his price. He's probably hoping Pierre will not find anyone who meets his price and then can sign him at his price. I'm hoping Pierre walks.

[A New Era]

That also may be the reason Hendry has talked as if he doesn't expect Pierre back. My guess is Hendry wants Pierre, but won't pay his price. He's probably hoping Pierre will not find anyone who meets his price and then can sign him at his price. I'm hoping Pierre walks.

 

That's what we ALL said, when he was a cub. .

[RichHillIsABeast]

Heard on WGN the other night that Dave Kaplan said that Pierre had turned down a 3 year- 21 mil contract extension offer from the cubs. According to what Kaplan said on sports central last night, Pierre is looking for 36 mil over 4 years.

 

If this is true Bye-Bye Juan, in my mind your not worth half that.

 

Wow. No way is Juan Pierre worth 7M per season, much less 9M. 4 years? [bleep] that noise.

 

I could live with 3/18M at the most.

 

Looks like Juan is gone. Yippee!!

[NorthsideAvenger]

Touche, Giles.

 

Besides, I rather Pierre leave RUNNING, instead of walking....but then again...he prolly be caught trying to leave Chicago, but oh well...

Edited October 22, 2006 by NorthsideAvenger

[A New Era]

That also may be the reason Hendry has talked as if he doesn't expect Pierre back. My guess is Hendry wants Pierre, but won't pay his price. He's probably hoping Pierre will not find anyone who meets his price and then can sign him at his price. I'm hoping Pierre walks.[/quote]

 

That's the problem, Vance, Pierre doesn't know how to talk a walk.

 

beat ya to it. ^