How did it come to this?

[goonys evil twin]

Did I say I cared about his past relationships? It doesn't matter anything to me.

 

If you ask why did I bring it up, it was in relation to a previous post that brought up the relationship of Hendry and Maineri as if it added greater importance to the selecting of a very high pick.

 

If you want to turn me mentioning his past relationship w/Creighton into some defense of how he has done, that's your own dumb connection, as wrong as it is.

 

Ease up cowboy.

 

I was responding to the general conversation about Hendry's relationships affecting drafts. Hendry's imprint is all over the team. The hitters fit to a T the type of hitter he's advocated, and the results of both the hitting and pitching were almost inevitable, given the goals he set long ago.

 

I tought you were trying to argue for the sake of it, trying to correlate me mentioning his past relationships as something of a positive.

 

Don't call me cowboy :)

 

surely

[series65cubsfan]

:) Nice Airplane reference.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

2003 was an exciting year for us, but I think it was also the beginning of the problems. Stop-gap solutions began because after 2003, Hendry believed this team was closer to a championship caliber team than they really were.

 

I don't think 2003 was the beginning of the problem. I'm still convinced that 2004 team was the best team in baseball on paper. It was the decisions that followed '04 that was the beginniing of the end.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

2003 was an exciting year for us, but I think it was also the beginning of the problems. Stop-gap solutions began because after 2003, Hendry believed this team was closer to a championship caliber team than they really were.

 

I don't think 2003 was the beginning of the problem. I'm still convinced that 2004 team was the best team in baseball on paper. It was the decisions that followed '04 that was the beginniing of the end.

 

The decisions that created the 2004 team however, set in motion the disasters that followed. The escalating contracts that were signed to keep the 2004 team under the budget made it impossible to improve the team in 2005-2006 without increases in payroll.

[RichHillIsABeast]

What you get is a cumulative effect. Singling out one individual who has had many EVERCHANGING leadership roles as the ultimate culprit ignores the complexity of what is going on in the Cubs org. It's not about how much total time Hendry has spent in the organization.

 

Actually it is. It's not like he was the groundskeeper before and ticket seller. He was in charge of the farm, then he was asst GM, then GM. His paws are everywhere. This is his team. I'm not singling out any one individual, just the one remaining individual from the triumverate of failures that led this team into the toilet. Andy, Jim and Dusty. Jim is as guilty as any of them.

 

My comment about not spending money was related to this team at the ASB. No Prior, Wood, or Lee makes that a pretty obvious call, especially with Pierre's lackluster 1st half. That wasn't a problem that could be fixed with money.

 

I have no problem spending money once the core is in place. But you have to develop the core first.

 

What does that even mean? Do you want to sit on the $40-60m available to spend until a new core is in place? The core is in place. Zambrano, Ramirez and Lee are the core, with Barrett and Murton along for the ride and guys like Hill, Wuertz and others very capable of contributing now and the future. Midseason they should have gone after Bobby Abreu for the garbage Philly was looking to take back. I don't know what other midseason spending you are talking about, but that would have been a very smart move.

 

Abreu isn't worth the 15M next season and 16M option in '08. If we're going to blow that kind of money, it should be on a player that gets you more wins...a front of the line starter. Abreu wouldn't have gotten us the playoffs.

 

I'm talking about hypothetical moves in the future, not this past season. We were cooked before the ASB. If the core stays healthy and the new kids step it up, we make a move for that extra bat or arm. Abreu doesn't help us down the road 2+ years, which is our new window. We're not going to the WS next year and picking up bad contracts right now isn't a great move.

 

My '07 roster:

 

Z/Matsuzaka/Hill/Miller/Prior or deserving kid

 

Barrett / Lee / Lugo (or Giles) / Izturis / Ramirez / Murton / Pie / whomever

 

I'd take a flier on Woody and see if he can close once his arm gets used to the workload.

 

Jones should be shipped out or platooned.

 

Spend the money overseas (maybe even another arm from Japan) on a guy who can help you for years to come (Matsuzaka is 26). Our rotation could be quite good going into '08 with Z/Matsuzaka/Hill. Once more trade for a quality SP and then we can really nail down the holes in the offense (RF, SS, bench).

 

We need to spend the money at the right time. Spending money after the season is over by the ASB on a guy like Abreu is ridiculous.

[Soriano12]

My '07 roster:

Z/Matsuzaka/Hill/Miller/Prior or deserving kid

Barrett / Lee / Lugo (or Giles) / Izturis / Ramirez / Murton / Pie / whomever

I'd take a flier on Woody and see if he can close once his arm gets used to the workload.

 

In addition to 20 million being cleared off the books, the Cubs appear willing to add an additional 20 million to the payroll, for a grand total of 40 mill to play with this offseason. Lets say Diasuke gets 15 million per season plus figure 5 mi/season of the bidding fee amoritzed over the life of the contract(its possible they won't even hold this "bidding fee" against the payroll budget")

 

Where is the rest of the $$$ going.

[RichHillIsABeast]

My '07 roster:

Z/Matsuzaka/Hill/Miller/Prior or deserving kid

Barrett / Lee / Lugo (or Giles) / Izturis / Ramirez / Murton / Pie / whomever

I'd take a flier on Woody and see if he can close once his arm gets used to the workload.

 

In addition to 20 million being cleared off the books, the Cubs appear willing to add an additional 20 million to the payroll, for a grand total of 40 mill to play with this offseason. Lets say Diasuke gets 15 million per season plus figure 5 mi/season of the bidding fee amoritzed over the life of the contract(its possible they won't even hold this "bidding fee" against the payroll budget")

 

Where is the rest of the $$$ going.

 

That's what I'd do, not what I think will realistically happen. If we want to spend more, I'd nab Kuroda or Saito type guy and Soriano.

 

I wouldn't touch Carlos Lee, Matthews Jr., or Pierre with a 10 foot pole. Guys like Zito and Schmidt should be passed on for the likes of Matsuzaka.

[abuck1220]

 

My '07 roster:

 

Z/Matsuzaka/Hill/Miller/Prior or deserving kid

 

Barrett / Lee / Lugo (or Giles) / Izturis / Ramirez / Murton / Pie / whomever

 

I'd take a flier on Woody and see if he can close once his arm gets used to the workload.

 

Jones should be shipped out or platooned.

 

Spend the money overseas (maybe even another arm from Japan) on a guy who can help you for years to come (Matsuzaka is 26). Our rotation could be quite good going into '08 with Z/Matsuzaka/Hill. Once more trade for a quality SP and then we can really nail down the holes in the offense (RF, SS, bench).

 

We need to spend the money at the right time. Spending money after the season is over by the ASB on a guy like Abreu is ridiculous.

 

that lineup is terrible.

[JeffH]

Actually, the Matsuzaka price seems like it is going to get out of hand.

 

For my money, the best high-end pitching value this offseason is likely to be Schmidt.

 

Give me Schmidt, one of the other Asians, and Wood.

[Soriano12]

one of the other Asians, .

 

That narrows it down.

 

:lol: :lol:

[RichHillIsABeast]

 

My '07 roster:

 

Z/Matsuzaka/Hill/Miller/Prior or deserving kid

 

Barrett / Lee / Lugo (or Giles) / Izturis / Ramirez / Murton / Pie / whomever

 

I'd take a flier on Woody and see if he can close once his arm gets used to the workload.

 

Jones should be shipped out or platooned.

 

Spend the money overseas (maybe even another arm from Japan) on a guy who can help you for years to come (Matsuzaka is 26). Our rotation could be quite good going into '08 with Z/Matsuzaka/Hill. Once more trade for a quality SP and then we can really nail down the holes in the offense (RF, SS, bench).

 

We need to spend the money at the right time. Spending money after the season is over by the ASB on a guy like Abreu is ridiculous.

 

that lineup is terrible.

 

It's not supposed to contend in '07. Thanks for your constructive and articulate insight though. :)

[abuck1220]

 

My '07 roster:

 

Z/Matsuzaka/Hill/Miller/Prior or deserving kid

 

Barrett / Lee / Lugo (or Giles) / Izturis / Ramirez / Murton / Pie / whomever

 

I'd take a flier on Woody and see if he can close once his arm gets used to the workload.

 

Jones should be shipped out or platooned.

 

Spend the money overseas (maybe even another arm from Japan) on a guy who can help you for years to come (Matsuzaka is 26). Our rotation could be quite good going into '08 with Z/Matsuzaka/Hill. Once more trade for a quality SP and then we can really nail down the holes in the offense (RF, SS, bench).

 

We need to spend the money at the right time. Spending money after the season is over by the ASB on a guy like Abreu is ridiculous.

 

that lineup is terrible.

 

It's not supposed to contend in '07. Thanks for your constructive and articulate insight though. :)

 

well, i guess i'm just not too keen on a team with $115 mil payroll going through a rebuilding phase...especially when you have relatively young talent like prior, lee, ramirez, barrett, zambrano, etc.

 

i suppose i just disagree with the idea that they can't contend next year. in the past, i thought that may be the case, but not if they're increasing payroll 15%. i gotta think it's nearly impossible to field a terrible team with a payroll that large.

[Soriano12]

i gotta think it's nearly impossible to field a terrible team with a payroll that large.

 

Are you doubting Mr. Hendry in that regard?

:lol:

[Soul]

i gotta think it's nearly impossible to field a terrible team with a payroll that large.

 

Are you doubting Mr. Hendry in that regard?

:lol:

 

It wasn't 100 million because nobody had a payroll that high back then, but I remember quite a few years where the Orioles were spending with the big boys and putting out just *horrendous* baseball teams.

 

It does happen. Haven't the Mets had a few high-priced stinkers, too?

 

That said, I think the Orioles kicked a few front office guys to the curb for their debacles, and the same should have happened to Hendry. But it hasn't----because the Cubs are stupid, and that's why we just continue to wade in a morass of failure.

 

Failure continues because it is tolerated.

[goonys evil twin]

It wasn't 100 million because nobody had a payroll that high back then, but I remember quite a few years where the Orioles were spending with the big boys and putting out just *horrendous* baseball teams.

 

It does happen. Haven't the Mets had a few high-priced stinkers, too?

 

When the Orioles were good, 96/97, they were at the top of the league in spending, higher than the Yankees. But George quickly surpassed Angelos, and the Orioles started cutting payroll after back to back sub .500 seasons. The real stinkers came about once they cut payroll on a bad team. The Mets were good, and expensive from 97-2000. But a lot of their best players were old, and quickly faded. In the early 2000s they were going through ownership changes, and held payroll in check. They ended up with some big money bums, waited to clear them from the payroll and settle the transfer of ownership, then reinvested heavily a couple years ago.

[dalgreen]

it's not like Hendry is unique here, there's been many GM's before him that sucked, too.

 

Please elaborate because I've never read anyone stating that Hendry is the first GM who has sucked. It's all about accountability. In my lifetime, Dallas Green is the only GM who receives high marks in my book. Hendry has not been a good GM and I'm curious what past sucky Cub GMs have to do with the current sucky GM.

[soapy]

 

My '07 roster:

 

Z/Matsuzaka/Hill/Miller/Prior or deserving kid

 

Barrett / Lee / Lugo (or Giles) / Izturis / Ramirez / Murton / Pie / whomever

 

I'd take a flier on Woody and see if he can close once his arm gets used to the workload.

 

Jones should be shipped out or platooned.

 

Spend the money overseas (maybe even another arm from Japan) on a guy who can help you for years to come (Matsuzaka is 26). Our rotation could be quite good going into '08 with Z/Matsuzaka/Hill. Once more trade for a quality SP and then we can really nail down the holes in the offense (RF, SS, bench).

 

We need to spend the money at the right time. Spending money after the season is over by the ASB on a guy like Abreu is ridiculous.

 

that lineup is terrible.

 

It's not supposed to contend in '07. Thanks for your constructive and articulate insight though. :)

 

well, i guess i'm just not too keen on a team with $115 mil payroll going through a rebuilding phase...especially when you have relatively young talent like prior, lee, ramirez, barrett, zambrano, etc.

 

i suppose i just disagree with the idea that they can't contend next year. in the past, i thought that may be the case, but not if they're increasing payroll 15%. i gotta think it's nearly impossible to field a terrible team with a payroll that large.

 

I think they can compete if they spend wisely (and are serious about going up to $115 million). Between Lugo, Soriano, Schmidt and say Padilla (just as an example) you'd probably be adding less than $40 million. You've got somewhere around $20 million coming off the books and a possible increase of $20 million in the budget. I think they'd compete with those additions.

[Pinktermite]

I don't think I was making the point that past GM's have to do with anything today. The discussion was, in my opinion, about Hendry being so horrible that the Cubs have never seen anything like it.

 

I agree that Dallas Green was good for the team. But he was followed with Jim Fry, Larry Himes and later Ed Lynch. The Cubs have known so much futility over the years because they don't have any consistency of management, and firing Jim Hendry won't make anything any better.

 

I think he should get (thought doesn't deserve, that much I grant you) another chance to see if he can pull off some of these deals like he has done in the past. Did Ed Lynch and Larry Himes do any better?

 

No, that doesn't make it "okay"...but it is MORE detrimental to fire someone than to keep them sometimes, given that Hendry has done some good things, we should keep him. I would guess that he lurks on these boards someplace, and knows that he's been a total tool...and wants to rectify things.

 

I like to think positive...sue me.

[Soriano12]

I like to think positive...sue me.

 

hmmm...what does your bank account look like? Given the current

state of our legal system, I might be able to cash in....

:idea:

[Pinktermite]

Not lookin too great, x wife and three kids depletes all the disposable income intended for NSBB lawsuits.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't think I was making the point that past GM's have to do with anything today. The discussion was, in my opinion, about Hendry being so horrible that the Cubs have never seen anything like it.

 

Nobody claimed we haven't seen anything like this. I, for one, have acknowledged that Hendry helped take this team from laughinstock to semi-respectable. The problem is he failed miserably in taking them to the next level.

 

I agree that Dallas Green was good for the team. But he was followed with Jim Fry, Larry Himes and later Ed Lynch. The Cubs have known so much futility over the years because they don't have any consistency of management, and firing Jim Hendry won't make anything any better.

 

I think he should get (thought doesn't deserve, that much I grant you) another chance to see if he can pull off some of these deals like he has done in the past. Did Ed Lynch and Larry Himes do any better?

 

No, that doesn't make it "okay"...but it is MORE detrimental to fire someone than to keep them sometimes, given that Hendry has done some good things, we should keep him. I would guess that he lurks on these boards someplace, and knows that he's been a total tool...and wants to rectify things.

 

I like to think positive...sue me.

 

What do Ed Lynch and Larry Himes have to do with anything? How can you sayd he doesn't deserve another chance but he should get one?

[Pinktermite]

I don't want to be construed as someone who is "Mr. Sunshine" and thinks that Jim Hendry is the greatest thing since the Post-It note. On the other hand, I personally think that he should get another chance because he has taken them to semi-respectable, as you put it, and that the options out there are no better than him. He has a couple years left on his contract, let him run with it...then he gets fired.

 

Lack of consistency in the Cubs as far as management goes has been one of their problems and firing Jim Hendry doesn't help. The "non deserving" comment was meant as an acknowledgement of the fact that he's made some poor choices and I wouldn't cry in my Chicken soup if he did get fired...i just think it would be a bad idea at this point.

[goonys evil twin]

Lack of consistency in the Cubs as far as management goes has been one of their problems and firing Jim Hendry doesn't help.

 

No, it hasn't. You can keep claiming that one, but you are wrong. The Cubs have been one of the most stable front offices the past 12 years.

[Pinktermite]

Lack of consistency in winning is probably a more accurate way of saying it, and lack of management's ability to field a winner might be a better way of saying it.

 

I don't follow things that closely, but having three GM's in fifteen years and five in the last twenty doesn't jump out as consistency to me...

 

Actually, maybe it's six in the last 20, because didn't MacPhail kinda serve as "GM" for a period of time before hiring Ed Lynch?

 

If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

[goonys evil twin]

Lack of consistency in winning is probably a more accurate way of saying it, and lack of management's ability to field a winner might be a better way of saying it.

 

I don't follow things that closely, but having three GM's in fifteen years and five in the last twenty doesn't jump out as consistency to me...

 

Actually, maybe it's six in the last 20, because didn't MacPhail kinda serve as "GM" for a period of time before hiring Ed Lynch?

 

If I'm wrong I'm wrong.

 

The team as you see it is the result of the 12 year run of Jim and Andy. Ed Lynch played a part as well. But those 3 guys have been the primary baseball decision makers for 12 years. Several other teams with much greater success have had far greater turnover.

 

Bad decision making, as a result of poor planning and strategy, has been this team's problem, not consistency in the front office. Jim Hendry has been a major part of that problem.