If Jim Hendry Reads a Second BP Article...

[CubinNY]

Pierre wouldn't be a terrible option as a ninth hitter on an AL team or an 8th hitter on an NL team. As an 8th hitter, his skills as a slap hitter would be nice as pitchers are rarely inclined to walk the 8th hitter anyway. If he's on ahead of the pitcher, he might can make something happen and be in scoring position when the top of the order comes to the plate.

 

That being said, you don't pay 8th hitters the kind of money Pierre will be looking for.

 

I totally agree Vance. Pierre would be an ideal 8 hitter.

 

Slap an infield hit, steal second, let the pitcher bunt you over to 3rd and let the run producers drive you in.

Edited September 19, 2006 by CubinNY

[frostwyrm]

If Pierre bats 8th he'll get CS a ton because opposing pitchers would just throw fastballs when he's on, and pitchouts would be more frequent too. He already gets CS way too much, at 8th it would be much worse. If you're paying Pierre big $ for his basestealing you can't bat him in front of a pitcher.

[CubinNY]

If Pierre bats 8th he'll get CS a ton because opposing pitchers would just throw fastballs when he's on, and pitchouts would be more frequent too. He already gets CS way too much, at 8th it would be much worse. If you're paying Pierre big $ for his basestealing you can't bat him in front of a pitcher.

 

Simply throwing a fastball is no guarentee that a guy will get cought stealing. Most bases are stolen on the pitcher's delivery to home not on the ptich they've thrown.

 

However, you're point stands. Why pay Pierre big dollars at all?

 

Just don't, he's not worth it.

[frostwyrm]

If Pierre bats 8th he'll get CS a ton because opposing pitchers would just throw fastballs when he's on, and pitchouts would be more frequent too. He already gets CS way too much, at 8th it would be much worse. If you're paying Pierre big $ for his basestealing you can't bat him in front of a pitcher.

 

Simply throwing a fastball is no guarentee that a guy will get cought stealing. Most bases are stolen on the pitcher's delivery to home not on the ptich they've thrown.

 

However, you're point stands. Why pay Pierre big dollars at all?

 

Just don't, he's not worth it.

He wouldn't be CS every time, but if 80-90% of Pierre's SB attempts were on fastballs his percentage would be hideous, even moreso than it is already. He'd be better off not even trying. IMO he needs to be at the top of the order or nowhere, preferrably nowhere.

[BigbadB]

Mark Bellhorn at the top of the order for the Cubs in 2002:

 

276 AB's/ 60 runs

 

Juan Pierre at the top of the order for the Cubs in 2006:

 

649 AB's/ 80 runs

 

Is this an indictment of Pierre? If so, how is it? I'm not being a smartypants; I was under the impression that runs are much like RBI in that they are not representative of an individual stat.

 

Basically, it points out that a slow guy can hit lead off and score on a more regular basis than a fast guy.

 

Yes, runs (outside of a HR) requires someone to drive you in. But, it's pretty easy to calculate that a guy who can get on base 40% of the time will score much more often than a guy who gets on base 33% of the time.

 

Pierre actually had decent value when his OBP was over .350. Now, he's really no better than Alex Sanchez, and Alex Sanchez can't land a major league job.

 

If the thought process has anything to do with bringing Juan Pierre back, my suggestion would be to sign Alex Sanchez to the league minimum and save the extra money saved on Pierre and sign or trade for GOOD players.

 

If they wanted to improve run production from the lead off spot, then they need to put someone in the lead off spot that can supply a respectable OBP. Pierre, Izturis, Neifi, and Sanchez do not do that.

 

Alex Sanchez has sort of been a long standing joke at NSBB because his OBP is totally dependent on his ability to get on base via a single. Ironically, Juan Pierre's 2006 very closely resembles Alex Sanchez' career numbers of .296/.330/.372

 

Pierre- .290/.330/.387

 

Alex Sanchez' career earnings: 1.25m

Pierre's earnings this year?- Way, way more than that

 

Pierre had value at one time. He hasn't had value for the last few years and may never have any value again. If some other team wants to give him a long term contract, let 4-3 go play for that team.

 

It was a poor trade. Plain and simple.

[Abe Frohman]

Pierre had value at one time. He hasn't had value for the last few years and may never have any value again. If some other team wants to give him a long term contract, let 4-3 go play for that team.

 

That's hilarious. Who gets the copyright for "4-3?"

[BigbadB]

Pierre had value at one time. He hasn't had value for the last few years and may never have any value again. If some other team wants to give him a long term contract, let 4-3 go play for that team.

 

That's hilarious. Who gets the copyright for "4-3?"

 

Not me, but it is pretty funny.

[Guest]

a lot of pitchers can hit fastballs.

[frostwyrm]

a lot of pitchers can hit fastballs.

Not well enough to justify paying Pierre big bucks to bat 8th and get CS a bunch.

[Guest]

a lot of pitchers can hit fastballs.

Not well enough to justify paying Pierre big bucks to bat 8th and get CS a bunch.

 

nothing can justify pierre getting a contract but I think the idea that pitchers will only throw fastballs is incorrect. not only that but trying to justify a contract for him batting 8th is completely missing the point. the point is he hurts you less batting 8th - nobody wants him there.

[frostwyrm]

a lot of pitchers can hit fastballs.

Not well enough to justify paying Pierre big bucks to bat 8th and get CS a bunch.

 

nothing can justify pierre getting a contract but I think the idea that pitchers will only throw fastballs is incorrect. not only that but trying to justify a contract for him batting 8th is completely missing the point. the point is he hurts you less batting 8th - nobody wants him there.

Some pitchers have bat speed, but lots of them can easily be overpowered by a good fastball. You don't have to throw them anything else. Even at leadoff Pierre's SB percentage is at the extreme low end of what anyone will tolerate. Batting him 8th puts him in a place where his percentage would be low enough that no competent manager would put up with it.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

If Pierre bats 8th he'll get CS a ton because opposing pitchers would just throw fastballs when he's on, and pitchouts would be more frequent too. He already gets CS way too much, at 8th it would be much worse.

 

I disagree. And if teams constantly threw pitchouts with the pitcher up, that would work into Pierre's team's favor as it would waste pitches with the pitcher at the plate.

 

If you're paying Pierre big $ for his basestealing you can't bat him in front of a pitcher.

 

As I said in the post where I said Pierre would make a great 8th hitter...

 

That being said, you don't pay 8th hitters the kind of money Pierre will be looking for.

[NewUserName]

I always thought it was shocking how many people thought Omar Moreno was a good player. Juan Pierre probably isnt even as good as Omar Moreno if you consider defense and adjust offensive #s for the time period they played in.

 

I am pretty sure that the Cubs are going to make Pierre a large offer and he will stay. I will cry almost as much as when the Cubs signed Perez last off-season.

 

As for Dusty bashing, I do agree that 80% of all Major League managers would have started the season with Pierre batting lead-off. I think more than 80% of them would have had him out of the Lead-off spot by the beginning of June though.

[frostwyrm]

If Pierre bats 8th he'll get CS a ton because opposing pitchers would just throw fastballs when he's on, and pitchouts would be more frequent too. He already gets CS way too much, at 8th it would be much worse.

 

I disagree. And if teams constantly threw pitchouts with the pitcher up, that would work into Pierre's team's favor as it would waste pitches with the pitcher at the plate.

 

Who said constant pitchouts? I said constant fastballs. We've all seen times where the P is facing the oppposing P, and he inexplicably tries to get too cute: eg. throwing too many breaking balls, nibbling at corners, etc. Don't you scream "just throw strikes!" at the TV? I do, and I can't see why a P would ever get the urge to get cute with Pierre on base and a P at the plate. The C would call for fastballs, and the P wouldn't argue.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

If Pierre bats 8th he'll get CS a ton because opposing pitchers would just throw fastballs when he's on, and pitchouts would be more frequent too. He already gets CS way too much, at 8th it would be much worse.

 

I disagree. And if teams constantly threw pitchouts with the pitcher up, that would work into Pierre's team's favor as it would waste pitches with the pitcher at the plate.

 

Who said constant pitchouts? I said constant fastballs. We've all seen times where the P is facing the oppposing P, and he inexplicably tries to get too cute: eg. throwing too many breaking balls, nibbling at corners, etc. Don't you scream "just throw strikes!" at the TV? I do, and I can't see why a P would ever get the urge to get cute with Pierre on base and a P at the plate. The C would call for fastballs, and the P wouldn't argue.

 

And that still favors the pitcher who is batting. I'd rather that pitcher get to swing at a fastball then to have to try to hit the opposing pitcher's breaking ball.

 

It doesn't change the fact that Pierre would be an ok 8th place hitter. His skills wouldn't be bad there. In fact, my guess is if you compared his numbers to most 8 place hitters, he fares better than average. That being said, no one pays 8 place hitters the money Pierre will want.

[CubinNY]

If Pierre bats 8th he'll get CS a ton because opposing pitchers would just throw fastballs when he's on, and pitchouts would be more frequent too. He already gets CS way too much, at 8th it would be much worse.

 

I disagree. And if teams constantly threw pitchouts with the pitcher up, that would work into Pierre's team's favor as it would waste pitches with the pitcher at the plate.

 

Who said constant pitchouts? I said constant fastballs. We've all seen times where the P is facing the oppposing P, and he inexplicably tries to get too cute: eg. throwing too many breaking balls, nibbling at corners, etc. Don't you scream "just throw strikes!" at the TV? I do, and I can't see why a P would ever get the urge to get cute with Pierre on base and a P at the plate. The C would call for fastballs, and the P wouldn't argue.

 

Where in the world do you get the idea that Pierre, or any base stealer can only steal on breaking balls? It's wrong.

 

Once again, a base is usually stolen on the pitcher before he ever releases the ball.

 

The key to stealing bases is not speed (although it is a necessary condition), it is getting a good jump. Even when Maddux could throw in the mid 90s he was easy to steal off of. IIRC Nolan Ryan was one of the easiest pitchers to steal off of.

 

Simply throwing a fastball is no guarentee that Peirre would get thrown out a higher % of the time.

[MPrior]

I agree that Pierre would probably be less effective as an individual in the 8th spot, for all the reasons that Frostwyrm has mentioned. However, that difference in his individual value would be pretty negligible, and he would help the team's overall value in the 8th spot by not getting so many PAs and not making so many outs in front of the 3-4-5 hitters.

 

So if the question is this: "If Pierre must start on your team, where would you bat him?", then the answer is: "8th."

 

If the question is: "Should you sign Pierre to a contract so he can bat 8th (or leadoff, for that matter)?" The answer is: "No."

[frostwyrm]

Simply throwing a fastball is no guarentee that Peirre would get thrown out a higher % of the time.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. I think Pierre's SB percentage would be terrible if he had to run on fastballs the great majority of the time, but there's no way to prove or disprove it without actually putting him in that situation.

[UK1679666180]

If he bats 8th, most managers would bunt him over with the pitcher instead of risking him getting thrown out at 2B.