Ryan Howard is a beast

[Andy]

It would be a shame if anyone but Pujols won the MVP this year.

 

I take it you were up in arms when Sosa beat McGwire for the MVP in 1998, then?

 

I was 11, so I don't think I really had much of an educated opinion.

 

Ah, I see. Well, I will say that Howard will likely finish with numbers basically as good as Sosa's, and his competition will have numbers significantly worse than McGwire.

Pujols's team will make the playoffs, and Howard's team may not. Warrants mentioning.

[NorthsideAvenger]

It would be a shame if anyone but Pujols won the MVP this year.

 

I take it you were up in arms when Sosa beat McGwire for the MVP in 1998, then?

 

I was 11, so I don't think I really had much of an educated opinion.

 

Ah, I see. Well, I will say that Howard will likely finish with numbers basically as good as Sosa's, and his competition will have numbers significantly worse than McGwire.

Pujols's team will make the playoffs, and Howard's team may not. Warrants mentioning.

 

But, Howard has had more IMPACT in the NL then Pujols. Albert impact was strictly towards the Cards, when he was out. My guess is Ryan Howard is and should be the NL MVP.

[EastonBlues22]

I honestly won't have a problem with either guy being picked. They're both having great years and I think they're both worthy choices. When you think about the joke that is the NL Cy Young "race", be happy that the NL MVP will have proved himself much more worthy.

Well said.

 

While I'm saying intelligent things, I'll also note that Beltran has had a really, really good year, and Miguel Cabrera happens to be #2 in VORP to Pujols. Both those guys have an OPS of 1.000 playing half their games in a pitchers' park. So, it'll likely be Howard or Pujols, but two other NL guys have been truly great this year as well.

New Busch is #24 currently in ESPNs Park Factors at .937...Shea is #26 at .930, and Dolphins Stadium is #30 at .867. Of the three parks, Busch is the only one that doesn't favor hitters in any of the five categories (Shea favors hitters in 2Bs and BBs, Dolphin Stadium in 3Bs and BBs).

 

Shea and New Busch are very comparable parks right now. Your point does stand with Cabrera...although, it's interesting to note that New Busch and Dolphins stadium are #24 and #25 respectively in Park Factors for HRs (.869 and .861 respectively). The argument usually goes that if Miggy played in a more HR friendly park, then his power #s would be better. I agree in concept, but New Busch is just as HR repellant as Dolphins, so that shouldn't be hurting Miggy's numbers relative to Pujols' any...only in gross totals.

 

In my opinion, you've nailed the top four candidates in this thread...the award is definitely still up for grabs.

 

[UMFan83]

I cant believe how much the story of Ryan Howard is lost among the national media.

 

Everyone knowingly admits that they think the 3 men who broke the HR record (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa) were cheaters. Therefore the unspoken HR record is 61 still. Howard is on pace to eclipse this IN HIS FIRST FULL SEASON.

 

Of course there are several factors that could explain this outburst:

 

-The weakness of the NL

-HGH?

 

Ok, I have nothing else.

 

But for a kid with less then 200 games under his belt to come out and potentially slug 63 HR and 157 RBI (projected numbers) is just mind boggling to me. No other rookie or second year player can touch those numbers. Yes there are weaknesses in his game (18 doubles for a power hitter seems really low), but for a sport whose fans are obsessed with raw power, this story needs to get more attention.

[Derwood]

it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the national media ended up handing the MVP to a Met

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Everyone knowingly admits that they think the 3 men who broke the HR record (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa) were cheaters. Therefore the unspoken HR record is 61 still.

 

I don't think this is true at all.

[UMFan83]

Everyone knowingly admits that they think the 3 men who broke the HR record (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa) were cheaters. Therefore the unspoken HR record is 61 still.

 

I don't think this is true at all.

 

Even the Maris family has said that if Howard hits 62 they acknowledge him as the champ

[EastonBlues22]

I cant believe how much the story of Ryan Howard is lost among the national media.

 

...

 

But for a kid with less then 200 games under his belt to come out and potentially slug 63 HR and 157 RBI (projected numbers) is just mind boggling to me. No other rookie or second year player can touch those numbers. Yes there are weaknesses in his game (18 doubles for a power hitter seems really low), but for a sport whose fans are obsessed with raw power, this story needs to get more attention.

ESPN's headline after last night's game: "Howard's 54th Homer Rallies Phillies Past Mets"

 

The solo HR came in the 3rd inning, and was the only RBI Howard had in a game where Philly scored 14 runs. Not to mention, Philly had 3 other HRs later in the game...all of those with people on. Truly, Howard's must have been the blow that made the difference.

 

I think the media is plenty aware.

[Mizzou]

New Busch is #24 currently in ESPNs Park Factors at .937...Shea is #26 at .930, and Dolphins Stadium is #30 at .867. Of the three parks, Busch is the only one that doesn't favor hitters in any of the five categories (Shea favors hitters in 2Bs and BBs, Dolphin Stadium in 3Bs and BBs).

How can a baseball stadium favor a hitter over a pitcher as far as walks go? That's all on the ump, the building the game is played in has nothing to do with it.

[EastonBlues22]

Everyone knowingly admits that they think the 3 men who broke the HR record (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa) were cheaters. Therefore the unspoken HR record is 61 still.

 

I don't think this is true at all.

 

Even the Maris family has said that if Howard hits 62 they acknowledge him as the champ

Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire have never failed a test. Now, maybe they used materials/suplements that were legal at the time (Andro), or that were just difficult to test for. However, their testing record is just as clean as Howard's is.

 

What makes everyone so sure that Howard isn't using materials/supplements that are difficult to test for, or that are legal now? The simply answer is we can't be sure. We believe the others are guilty because we want to believe it. We believe Howard is innocent because we want to believe it.

 

The record has no asterisk...apologies to the Maris family.

[EastonBlues22]

New Busch is #24 currently in ESPNs Park Factors at .937...Shea is #26 at .930, and Dolphins Stadium is #30 at .867. Of the three parks, Busch is the only one that doesn't favor hitters in any of the five categories (Shea favors hitters in 2Bs and BBs, Dolphin Stadium in 3Bs and BBs).

How can a baseball stadium favor a hitter over a pitcher as far as walks go? That's all on the ump, the building the game is played in has nothing to do with it.

Park factors doesn't necessarily measure just "the park" itself. It's calculated by formulas such as: PF = ((homeRS + homeRA)/(homeG)) / ((roadRS + roadRA)/(roadG)). Basically, it compares a team's performance level (and it's competition's) at home over the course of the year against the performance level in all away games. Now, if certain stadiums have been easier to get a walk in this year, it will tell you that...but it won't necessarily explain why. The fact remains, though, that it has been easier to draw walks in certain stadiums than it has been in others for whatever reason.

[jkrapfl]

New Busch is #24 currently in ESPNs Park Factors at .937...Shea is #26 at .930, and Dolphins Stadium is #30 at .867. Of the three parks, Busch is the only one that doesn't favor hitters in any of the five categories (Shea favors hitters in 2Bs and BBs, Dolphin Stadium in 3Bs and BBs).

How can a baseball stadium favor a hitter over a pitcher as far as walks go? That's all on the ump, the building the game is played in has nothing to do with it.

 

I don't think that is completely accurate. Park factors such as the hitters backdrop are going to affect how the hitter picks up the ball out of the pitcher's hand, and will therefore positively or negatively impact the number of walks given up in that park. The umpire is not the only factor.

[UMFan83]

Everyone knowingly admits that they think the 3 men who broke the HR record (Bonds, McGwire, Sosa) were cheaters. Therefore the unspoken HR record is 61 still.

 

I don't think this is true at all.

 

Even the Maris family has said that if Howard hits 62 they acknowledge him as the champ

Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire have never failed a test. Now, maybe they used materials/suplements that were legal at the time (Andro), or that were just difficult to test for. However, their testing record is just as clean as Howard's is.

 

What makes everyone so sure that Howard isn't using materials/supplements that are difficult to test for, or that are legal now? The simply answer is we can't be sure. We believe the others are guilty because we want to believe it. We believe Howard is innocent because we want to believe it.

 

The record has no asterisk...apologies to the Maris family.

 

McGwire took the 5th when asked if he took illegal performance enhancing drugs by Congress, which is everything but admitting his guilt and cheating.

 

Bonds testified that he "unknowingly" took illegal performance enhacing drugs to a grand jury, also admitting his guilt and cheating.

 

Sosa's guilt can not be pinpointed so easily. The only arguments you can make for him involve a level of assumption. He is a known cheater (cork) and basically broke down when steroid testing began.

 

I'll give you Sosa (barely), but I refuse to accept McGwire and Bonds' records as legit

[fromthestretch]

Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire have never failed a test. Now, maybe they used materials/suplements that were legal at the time (Andro), or that were just difficult to test for. However, their testing record is just as clean as Howard's is.

 

What makes everyone so sure that Howard isn't using materials/supplements that are difficult to test for, or that are legal now? The simply answer is we can't be sure. We believe the others are guilty because we want to believe it. We believe Howard is innocent because we want to believe it.

 

The record has no asterisk...apologies to the Maris family.

 

McGwire took the 5th when asked if he took illegal performance enhancing drugs by Congress, which is everything but admitting his guilt and cheating.

 

Bonds testified that he "unknowingly" took illegal performance enhacing drugs to a grand jury, also admitting his guilt and cheating.

 

Sosa's guilt can not be pinpointed so easily. The only arguments you can make for him involve a level of assumption. He is a known cheater (cork) and basically broke down when steroid testing began.

 

I'll give you Sosa (barely), but I refuse to accept McGwire and Bonds' records as legit

 

I agree with Easton. None of them failed a test. In fact, McGwire's career was played in an era where no players were tested. Since more pitchers than hitters have been suspended (at both the major and minor league levels combined) since testing began, one can reasonably assume that hitters were regularly facing pitchers who were on performance-enhancing drugs.

 

There are most likely several players who took steroids and other performance enhancing drugs over the past several years. We'll never know who they all are.

 

In my eyes, when you have several "juiced" hitters facing "juiced" pitchers, it tends to balance things out a bit. If players test positive or somehow get caught using something they shouldn't be using, by all means, suspend them, put an asterisk next to their numbers, etc. Until then, I view the numbers as legit.

 

Keep in mind that it's not referred to as the "Steroid Era" because a handful of guys had some monster seasons. It's referred to as that due to alleged wide-spread use of those drugs.

[Soul]

Ryan Howard is going to make the 50 HR mark matter again, a mark worthy of awe.

 

Really?

 

I hate to bring this up, but are we sure we're seeing what we think we're seeing (if you know what I mean)?

 

It sucks that everytime a professional athlete does something remarkable, we as fans instantly think about whether or not the player is taking steroids?

 

Maybe so, but that's the reality of sports in this era.

 

Perhaps the gods of baseball might think better next time of letting performance-enhancing drugs eat up the integrity of their sport.

 

From my perspective, it's once bitten twice shy..................never again will I simply assume an amazing feat is being accomplished without "help."

[Soul]

Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire have never failed a test. Now, maybe they used materials/suplements that were legal at the time (Andro), or that were just difficult to test for. However, their testing record is just as clean as Howard's is.

 

What makes everyone so sure that Howard isn't using materials/supplements that are difficult to test for, or that are legal now? The simply answer is we can't be sure. We believe the others are guilty because we want to believe it. We believe Howard is innocent because we want to believe it.

 

The record has no asterisk...apologies to the Maris family.

 

McGwire took the 5th when asked if he took illegal performance enhancing drugs by Congress, which is everything but admitting his guilt and cheating.

 

Bonds testified that he "unknowingly" took illegal performance enhacing drugs to a grand jury, also admitting his guilt and cheating.

 

Sosa's guilt can not be pinpointed so easily. The only arguments you can make for him involve a level of assumption. He is a known cheater (cork) and basically broke down when steroid testing began.

 

I'll give you Sosa (barely), but I refuse to accept McGwire and Bonds' records as legit

 

I agree with Easton. None of them failed a test. In fact, McGwire's career was played in an era where no players were tested. Since more pitchers than hitters have been suspended (at both the major and minor league levels combined) since testing began, one can reasonably assume that hitters were regularly facing pitchers who were on performance-enhancing drugs.

 

There are most likely several players who took steroids and other performance enhancing drugs over the past several years. We'll never know who they all are.

 

In my eyes, when you have several "juiced" hitters facing "juiced" pitchers, it tends to balance things out a bit. If players test positive or somehow get caught using something they shouldn't be using, by all means, suspend them, put an asterisk next to their numbers, etc. Until then, I view the numbers as legit.

 

Keep in mind that it's not referred to as the "Steroid Era" because a handful of guys had some monster seasons. It's referred to as that due to alleged wide-spread use of those drugs.

 

I disagree. First of all, for your theory to work, we have to assume EVERY player is juicing. Otherwise the balancing-out effect just doesn't hold up.

 

Secondly, even if it *was* every player doing it, it's still fruit of the poison tree. Once you pollute the game, there's no longer any basis to judge what the statistics mean. And without that basis, the stats themselves mean nothing.

[fromthestretch]

I agree with Easton. None of them failed a test. In fact, McGwire's career was played in an era where no players were tested. Since more pitchers than hitters have been suspended (at both the major and minor league levels combined) since testing began, one can reasonably assume that hitters were regularly facing pitchers who were on performance-enhancing drugs.

 

There are most likely several players who took steroids and other performance enhancing drugs over the past several years. We'll never know who they all are.

 

In my eyes, when you have several "juiced" hitters facing "juiced" pitchers, it tends to balance things out a bit. If players test positive or somehow get caught using something they shouldn't be using, by all means, suspend them, put an asterisk next to their numbers, etc. Until then, I view the numbers as legit.

 

Keep in mind that it's not referred to as the "Steroid Era" because a handful of guys had some monster seasons. It's referred to as that due to alleged wide-spread use of those drugs.

 

I disagree. First of all, for your theory to work, we have to assume EVERY player is juicing. Otherwise the balancing-out effect just doesn't hold up.

 

Secondly, even if it *was* every player doing it, it's still fruit of the poison tree. Once you pollute the game, there's no longer any basis to judge what the statistics mean. And without that basis, the stats themselves mean nothing.

 

No we don't. I never said it makes it completely equal, but it certainly does level the playing field somewhat. We don't know how many homers Bonds hit off of pitchers on performance enhancing drugs...especially BEFORE 1998, if you go by the assumption that he started taking them that season.

 

I agree that steroids should be out of the game. But there's no way to go back and test players from the past. If we could, we might as well go back several decades and test for amphetamines and other things. More players than we'll probably ever know have done something against the rules to gain an advantage and were never caught, simply because there was no good system in place to catch them. Now, we have drug testing. It might not be perfect, but it's a step in the right direction. Punish the guys who get caught. That's all you can do.

 

Edited to add the word "somewhat." Stupid of me to leave out a key word.

Edited September 8, 2006 by grassbass

[fromthestretch]

Back on topic...

 

No matter what context you put it into - whether you view 61 or 73 as the official record - Ryan Howard is having an amazing season. I'd love to see him hit at least 60 home runs.

 

Of course, that would lead to John Kruk making a prediction that Howard will hit 80 home runs next season, just like he said the Yankees would win 130 games.

[EastonBlues22]

McGwire took the 5th when asked if he took illegal performance enhancing drugs by Congress, which is everything but admitting his guilt and cheating.

And speaking up would have cemented his innocence? Like Palmeiro...who did fail a steroid test? He's already guilty in the court of public perception, so people interpret his silence as an indictment against his innocence. Nobody really suspected Palmeiro, so they interpreted his passionate denials as proof of his innocence. If that Congressional farce illustrated anything, it's that the perceptions of people color their interpretations of events...

 

Bonds testified that he "unknowingly" took illegal performance enhacing drugs to a grand jury, also admitting his guilt and cheating.

Bonds neither admitted his "guilt," nor admitted to cheating. Ironically, the dates of accusation listed in that grand jury are too late for them to have influenced Bonds' record setting 2001 campaign. So: 1) There's no record of Bonds being convicted on any charge. 2) There's no evidence against him whatsoever in the years leading up to his most controversial campaign. 3) Even if you assume his guilt, that in no way changes the fact that Howard might be using undetectable substances as well...a fact that everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring.

 

Sosa's guilt can not be pinpointed so easily. The only arguments you can make for him involve a level of assumption. He is a known cheater (cork) and basically broke down when steroid testing began.

Back to assumptions...I think I've made my point.

 

I'll give you Sosa (barely), but I refuse to accept McGwire and Bonds' records as legit

That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. For my part, I'm glad that MLB disagrees with that sentiment.

[CubColtPacer]

Howard went 3-4 tonight with 2 HR's, #55 and #56. If he reaches 62, it will be hard for the MVP voters to pass him up-especially if the Phillies make the playoffs.

[EastonBlues22]

Howard went 3-4 tonight with 2 HR's, #55 and #56. If he reaches 62, it will be hard for the MVP voters to pass him up-especially if the Phillies make the playoffs.

Why pitchers continue to challenge him inside when he's so locked in defies any amount of common sense. He has trouble (relatively speaking) hitting pitches high and away, and low and away...pitch to his weaknesses and if he gets himself out, great. If not, at least you're not pitching like an idiot.

[YearofDaCubs]

Howard went 3-4 tonight with 2 HR's, #55 and #56. If he reaches 62, it will be hard for the MVP voters to pass him up-especially if the Phillies make the playoffs.

The man deserves it.

[daske17]

Howard went 3-4 tonight with 2 HR's, #55 and #56. If he reaches 62, it will be hard for the MVP voters to pass him up-especially if the Phillies make the playoffs.

The man deserves it.

 

[petty Cubs fan] Anything to keep a Cardinal from winning an award [/petty Cubs fan]

[EastonBlues22]

Howard went 3-4 tonight with 2 HR's, #55 and #56. If he reaches 62, it will be hard for the MVP voters to pass him up-especially if the Phillies make the playoffs.

The man deserves it.

 

[petty Cubs fan] Anything to keep a Cardinal from winning an award [/petty Cubs fan]

You do know that Howard was born and raised in STL, right?

 

:P

[YearofDaCubs]

Howard went 3-4 tonight with 2 HR's, #55 and #56. If he reaches 62, it will be hard for the MVP voters to pass him up-especially if the Phillies make the playoffs.

The man deserves it.

 

[petty Cubs fan] Anything to keep a Cardinal from winning an award [/petty Cubs fan]

Nah, Pujols is the man but I believe Howard has done enough this year to overtake him.