nice knowing you, the riot

[goonys evil twin]

also am i missing something? is bynum any type of prospect? isn't he basically a utility guy?

why in god's name would we not see theriot?

 

Theroit and Bynum are both a little light in the prospect department. They are kind of old to be considered to have much potential. Both have utility guy written all over them. Theriot has a .355 minor league OBP, while Freddie has a .347.

[Warren Brusstar]

the problem is that dusty doesn't call out everyone and he doesn't punish everyone..

theriot does something stupid on the bases as compared to alou in the past? or bynum not covering a bag? those 2 certainly didn't get the punishment that ryan did..

also am i missing something? is bynum any type of prospect? isn't he basically a utility guy?

why in god's name would we not see theriot? i know his obp is awfully high for a hendry/baker club but you can't fault the guy for getting on base!i'm sure as he matures under baker he will stop doing that! he just needs to learn that walks clog the bases!!!!!!!!!!

 

Theriot isn't much of a prospect either.

[soapy]

Bump

 

The Cubs came back to tie it with a run in the third, 2 in the fourth and 1 in the fifth. They had a chance to go ahead in the eighth when Juan Pierre singled with one out and stole second base. But Pierre got himself thrown out trying to steal third, and the Cubs came up empty.

 

Baker carried on for two days criticizing rookie Ryan Theriot about a similar play Aug. 22. However, he seemed to defend the veteran Pierre.

 

“Well, I mean, Juan is on his own,” Baker offered. “He has a pretty good idea when to run. He didn’t get a real good jump on that ball. On that one he usually gets an outstanding jump. Just a tough night.”

 

 

vs this

 

Rookie Ryan Theriot committed a baseball sin Tuesday when he tried to steal third base in the eighth inning after doubling with two out. Theriot was thrown out with the 3-4-5 hitters due up.

 

''He was trying to make something happen, but I explained to him you already made something happen with a double and two outs,'' Baker said. ''Here's a young man who's been to the College World Series. They know [better]. Even my [7-year-old] son called me and said, 'Dad, you don't make the last out at third.'''

 

It's slightly different because there was one out instead of two, but I think the double standard is pretty clear.

[CubColtPacer]

Bump

 

The Cubs came back to tie it with a run in the third, 2 in the fourth and 1 in the fifth. They had a chance to go ahead in the eighth when Juan Pierre singled with one out and stole second base. But Pierre got himself thrown out trying to steal third, and the Cubs came up empty.

 

Baker carried on for two days criticizing rookie Ryan Theriot about a similar play Aug. 22. However, he seemed to defend the veteran Pierre.

 

“Well, I mean, Juan is on his own,” Baker offered. “He has a pretty good idea when to run. He didn’t get a real good jump on that ball. On that one he usually gets an outstanding jump. Just a tough night.”

 

 

vs this

 

Rookie Ryan Theriot committed a baseball sin Tuesday when he tried to steal third base in the eighth inning after doubling with two out. Theriot was thrown out with the 3-4-5 hitters due up.

 

''He was trying to make something happen, but I explained to him you already made something happen with a double and two outs,'' Baker said. ''Here's a young man who's been to the College World Series. They know [better]. Even my [7-year-old] son called me and said, 'Dad, you don't make the last out at third.'''

 

It's slightly different because there was one out instead of two, but I think the double standard is pretty clear.

 

One out and 2 outs are a huge difference-stealing 3rd with 2 outs does almost nothing for you, while stealing 3rd with 1 out can be the difference between needing a hit to score, or just a fly ball. Also, didn't Theriot try to take 3rd with a 2-3 run deficit? Pierre's was with only a 1 run deficit. Finally, there were completely different hitters coming up for Pierre than Theriot. Did Dusty go too far to defend Pierre? Yes-but Pierre's situation was completely different from Theriot's in every respect.

[BigbadB]

How many outs do there have to be to be an acceptable practice to kick the ball into the ivy and then use your cleats to yank ivy off the wall to hide the ball instead of just bending over to pick it up.

 

I don't recall Dusty ever getting on Moises Alou about that fine hustling play. :roll: I seem to recall that Dusty covered for Moises on that play and many of his base running blunders, check swing ground outs, poor routes to fly balls, etc....

 

And Moises didn't miss an inning in that game or the next.

[BigbadB]

I vividly recall Dusty publicly bashing Corey Patterson right on the baseball field.

 

When has Dusty ever done this with a veteran? I can think of many instances where he should have.

 

If anyone feels that Dusty treats everyone equally, I can respect your opinion. But, why must anyone feel the need to degrade someone who doesn't see it that way. I think there is enough evidence out there to at least give someone the impression he doesn't treat people fairly.

 

Jacque Jones is horrible against lefties. Jacque Jones plays everyday. Matt Murton slumped earlier in the year and he's been permanently banned to a platoon role. Why does Jacque play against lefties? If Murton is platooned, so should Jacque.

 

How many more times has Neifi hit 2nd than Murton? Who is a more viable candidate to hit 2nd? I rest my case.

[goonys evil twin]

If anyone feels that Dusty treats everyone equally, I can respect your opinion.

 

I can't.

 

I find it hard to respect an opinion that's blatantly wrong.

[CubColtPacer]

I vividly recall Dusty publicly bashing Corey Patterson right on the baseball field.

 

When has Dusty ever done this with a veteran? I can think of many instances where he should have.

 

If anyone feels that Dusty treats everyone equally, I can respect your opinion. But, why must anyone feel the need to degrade someone who doesn't see it that way. I think there is enough evidence out there to at least give someone the impression he doesn't treat people fairly.

 

Jacque Jones is horrible against lefties. Jacque Jones plays everyday. Matt Murton slumped earlier in the year and he's been permanently banned to a platoon role. Why does Jacque play against lefties? If Murton is platooned, so should Jacque.

 

How many more times has Neifi hit 2nd than Murton? Who is a more viable candidate to hit 2nd? I rest my case.

 

I would agreee with you that Dusty treats veterans with a different type of approach most of the time. However, the Murton and Jones situation doesn't work IMO. Murton is not in a platoon, instead it's a matter of Baker wanting to get Pagan at-bats as well. Also, because Baker wants to get Pagan more at-bats, Jacque has started to be in a platoon as well-Pagan has started several times in RF as well over the last month.

[cubweiser03]

also am i missing something? is bynum any type of prospect? isn't he basically a utility guy?

why in god's name would we not see theriot?

 

Theroit and Bynum are both a little light in the prospect department. They are kind of old to be considered to have much potential. Both have utility guy written all over them. Theriot has a .355 minor league OBP, while Freddie has a .347.

 

The big difference is BB/K ratio.

The Riot 233/230

Bynum 273/604

 

This is why Freddie can't translate his OBP and is getting his ass handed to him in the the majors. The Riot on the otherhand had a better foundation of plate discipline in the minors and why he is probably doing a better job at getting on base at the new level than Bynum is.

 

Majors BB/K ratio:

Bynum 5/35

The Riot 9/7

 

The Riot might not be good prospect in the everyday player fashion mold but he is sure looking like a very good utility player at least unlike Bynum. The BB/K ratio is significant difference in the 2 players.

[ROBBY51]

Come on guys! All year long I have been reading about LACK of fire in the Cubs. Now we have a guy with that fire in his belly and you want to rip him about an attempted steal of third.

 

Let's see we are 20 games below .500 and going nowhere. Riot is on second with 2 outs. He thinks strongly that he can steal third, possibly scoring on a bad throw, a error by a infielder, or a passed ball. He trys it and is just thrown out. Give him credit for having the FIRE to try it.

 

If you would just watch him close enough you would see that he has smarts beyond most of the team. He is well schooled and knows when to swing at a pitch and when to take it. Reminds me of any of a number of Twins players. Aggressive and well schooled!

[Laura]

When is Cesar due back? Hopefully he'll ease back into playing.

 

I'd hate to see Theriot completely benched for Cedeno at this point.

[CubColtPacer]

When is Cesar due back? Hopefully he'll ease back into playing.

 

I'd hate to see Theriot completely benched for Cedeno at this point.

 

I have to think that Cesar will not come back at this point. He's been out for 3 weeks or so, and we've heard nothing about him-I bet they are telling him that there is little point at rushing it right now, and if he hasn't started to come back yet it will be very late if he comes back at all.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I guess I should do more reading. Izturis is supposedly coming back at the end of the week-I do hope that it is more at the expense of Cedeno than Theriot at this point.

[Laura]

I have to think that Cesar will not come back at this point. He's been out for 3 weeks or so, and we've heard nothing about him-I bet they are telling him that there is little point at rushing it right now, and if he hasn't started to come back yet it will be very late if he comes back at all.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I guess I should do more reading. Izturis is supposedly coming back at the end of the week-I do hope that it is more at the expense of Cedeno than Theriot at this point.

 

Hendry simply can't plan on having Cedeno be the starting 2Bman next season.

[CubColtPacer]

I have to think that Cesar will not come back at this point. He's been out for 3 weeks or so, and we've heard nothing about him-I bet they are telling him that there is little point at rushing it right now, and if he hasn't started to come back yet it will be very late if he comes back at all.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I guess I should do more reading. Izturis is supposedly coming back at the end of the week-I do hope that it is more at the expense of Cedeno than Theriot at this point.

 

Hendry simply can't plan on having Cedeno be the starting 2Bman next season.

 

That's completely true..there is simply not a single valuable part to his game right now. I wish him the best of luck-I hope he finds a way to turn it around. Right now though, he is absolutely terrible offensively and below average defensively, and there is simply not time to see if he will get any better.

[Soriano12]

I have to think that Cesar will not come back at this point. He's been out for 3 weeks or so, and we've heard nothing about him-I bet they are telling him that there is little point at rushing it right now, and if he hasn't started to come back yet it will be very late if he comes back at all.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I guess I should do more reading. Izturis is supposedly coming back at the end of the week-I do hope that it is more at the expense of Cedeno than Theriot at this point.

 

Hendry simply can't plan on having Cedeno be the starting 2Bman next season.

 

Oh he can. This is the same guy that planned on having Jerome Williams

as the #4 starter based on a 3 month anomoly in 2005.

[Warpticon]

I have to think that Cesar will not come back at this point. He's been out for 3 weeks or so, and we've heard nothing about him-I bet they are telling him that there is little point at rushing it right now, and if he hasn't started to come back yet it will be very late if he comes back at all.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I guess I should do more reading. Izturis is supposedly coming back at the end of the week-I do hope that it is more at the expense of Cedeno than Theriot at this point.

 

Hendry simply can't plan on having Cedeno be the starting 2Bman next season.

 

Oh he can. This is the same guy that planned on having Jerome Williams

as the #4 starter based on a 3 month anomoly in 2005.

 

Anomaly? I guess when he was even better than that as a rookie three years ago that was an anomaly, too? Williams sucked because he lost velocity, not because his past performance was some illusion.

[Soriano12]

I have to think that Cesar will not come back at this point. He's been out for 3 weeks or so, and we've heard nothing about him-I bet they are telling him that there is little point at rushing it right now, and if he hasn't started to come back yet it will be very late if he comes back at all.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I guess I should do more reading. Izturis is supposedly coming back at the end of the week-I do hope that it is more at the expense of Cedeno than Theriot at this point.

 

Hendry simply can't plan on having Cedeno be the starting 2Bman next season.

 

Oh he can. This is the same guy that planned on having Jerome Williams

as the #4 starter based on a 3 month anomoly in 2005.

 

Anomaly? I guess when he was even better than that as a rookie three years ago that was an anomaly, too? Williams sucked because he lost velocity, not because his past performance was some illusion.

 

He was extremely inconsistent as a Giant too. The Giants couldn't wait to

dump him on us for Hawkins who was just terrible at the time.

 

His stuff was never overpowering and considering that our #3 starter was on the declining stages of his career(Maddux) relying on willams was a complete misfire.

[Sammy Sofa]

I have to think that Cesar will not come back at this point. He's been out for 3 weeks or so, and we've heard nothing about him-I bet they are telling him that there is little point at rushing it right now, and if he hasn't started to come back yet it will be very late if he comes back at all.

 

Edit: Nevermind, I guess I should do more reading. Izturis is supposedly coming back at the end of the week-I do hope that it is more at the expense of Cedeno than Theriot at this point.

 

Hendry simply can't plan on having Cedeno be the starting 2Bman next season.

 

Oh he can. This is the same guy that planned on having Jerome Williams

as the #4 starter based on a 3 month anomoly in 2005.

 

Anomaly? I guess when he was even better than that as a rookie three years ago that was an anomaly, too? Williams sucked because he lost velocity, not because his past performance was some illusion.

 

He was extremely inconsistent as a Giant too. The Giants couldn't wait to

dump him on us for Hawkins who was just terrible at the time.

 

His stuff was never overpowering and considering that our #3 starter was on the declining stages of his career(Maddux) relying on willams was a complete misfire.

 

The point is still that the idea of Williams being in the starting rotation wasn't just plucked out of the air. He had shown repeatedly at various times throughout his career that he had a lot of potential to be a decent #4 or #5 starter. He lost velocity and didn't pan out. Trying to use this as "proof" that Hendry is a bad GM is one of the worse examples out there you could pick from.

[Soriano12]

It's a complete valid Hendry gripe IMO.

 

He used a completly "best case scenario" gameplan

 

Zambrano would be healthy and effective

Prior would be healthy and effective

Wood would return by May

and Williams put toghether a full consistent major league season, something

he had never done before.

 

Hendry never prepares for the worst, never had a backup plan.

Truly a "cowboy" IMO.

 

 

If you have 3 healthy good starters in that rotation, then by all means

take a shot on a Jerome Williams, but if you rotation is full of ?'s, don't add another one.

[NorthsideAvenger]

So we all agree that Baker is a double-standard buffoon, who shouldn't be "babysitting" a major league team. I say babysitting, because you can't call what he does "managing", cause the only thing he is managing to do, is make himself look like an idiot.

 

Pierre is thrown out trying to steal third, and he gets a pass because he is a "vet."

 

Theriot gets thrown out at third, and is call out as being a player from the "College World Series and he should have known."

 

To me, that sounds like Baker is calling Pierre an idiot, inadvertly.

 

But hey, Baker will be gone soon enough, and we can laugh at another teams "stupidity" for snatching Baker.

[Shawon12]

So we all agree that Baker is a double-standard buffoon, who shouldn't be "babysitting" a major league team. I say babysitting, because you can't call what he does "managing", cause the only thing he is managing to do, is make himself look like an idiot.

 

Pierre is thrown out trying to steal third, and he gets a pass because he is a "vet."

 

Theriot gets thrown out at third, and is call out as being a player from the "College World Series and he should have known."

 

To me, that sounds like Baker is calling Pierre an idiot, inadvertly.

 

But hey, Baker will be gone soon enough, and we can laugh at another teams "stupidity" for snatching Baker.

 

I thought Theriot was caught stealing third with two outs??? If so, it's a completely different situation than JP trying to get to third w/ 1 out. If this is the case, then these are two completely separate situations and should be viewed differently.

[Sammy Sofa]

It's a complete valid Hendry gripe IMO.

 

He used a completly "best case scenario" gameplan

 

Zambrano would be healthy and effective

Prior would be healthy and effective

Wood would return by May

and Williams put toghether a full consistent major league season, something

he had never done before.

 

Hendry never prepares for the worst, never had a backup plan.

Truly a "cowboy" IMO.

 

 

If you have 3 healthy good starters in that rotation, then by all means

take a shot on a Jerome Williams, but if you rotation is full of ?'s, don't add another one.

 

He wasn't necessarily banking he'd even have a consistent full season...just at least a few months to theroetically get over the injury hump of Wood/Prior/Miller. Obviously, that didn't work, but there are much biggers flaws in that plan besides guessing Williams will be your #5 or #6 starter. A ton of people thought he'd (Jerome) be able to pull it off, not just Hendry.

[Guest]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

When Prior finished the season healthy and effective last year, there was no reason for Hendry to suspect he'd be anything different this spring. Now we know differently, but at the time Hendry was not stupid for counting on Prior as his #2.

 

Maddux was the #3 starter to begin the year, no question.

 

So there were two spots in the rotation to fill. There were a lot of candidates

 

Again, it's easy to look back and think Hendry was foolish for counting on Wood & Miller to return so well from shoulder surgery. But even if those guys didn't come back strong, there were still many other candidates, all of whom had reason to believe in them.

 

Williams had past success with the Giants and then ran into issues with weight & motivation when he had problems outside baseball. There was reason to believe that his strong showing down the stretch last year under Baker meant that he had gotten past that and would continue to improve. After all, the kid was still just 24 and had a lot of potential. Nobody guessed how far or how fast he'd fall from last season.

 

Rusch has been a joke this year, but has been effective when starting for the Cubs in the past. As a full-time starter, he looks awful. As a bridge to Wood or Miller, he wasn't that bad.

 

Then the Cubs had a long list of rookies who looked promising for being ready to get a shot as a 5th starter. In fact, a number of us (including me) would have been upset if a spot hadn't been left open for at least one rookie to break through this season.

 

I look at all this and I see that every possible thing that could have gone wrong in each scenario went wrong. But I certainly understand Hendry's belief coming into the year that he'd have enough pitching -- at least by June when it would have been reasonable to suspect Wood or Miller being ready. I know I didn't think that all of the above would go wrong. I figured some would go wrong, some would go right and we'd be okay.

 

I was wrong, too. You can't plan on having all the breaks go your way. But you can't prepare for everything going wrong, either.

[Soriano12]

You can't plan on having all the breaks go your way.

 

Problem is, Hendry is always banking on this. Always.

[Sammy Sofa]

You can't plan on having all the breaks go your way.

 

Problem is, Hendry is always banking on this. Always.

 

I disagree. I think he's been planning on too many risks to go his way, but he's not setting it up that we need EVERYTHING to work. What were the odds that Wood, Prior, Miller, Williams (hell, I think they expected Hill to be able to step up at least somewhat early on if needed) AND Rusch (even just for a brief 1-2 month window) would effectively end up being non-entities the entire year? No, noboy is going to dream of saying that was the best plan...far from it. But you're flat-out lying if you're saying you knew all of that was going to blow up in Hnedry's face. Was it the best way to go into the season? Of course not. Was it the worst? Honestly, no, it wasn't.