To fix the Cubs...

[Irrelevant Dude]

The general consensus seems to be that the Cubs can't go into next year with a lineup containing Pierre, Murton, Jones, Cedeno, and Izturis. Why not do the following?

 

1) Don't re-sign Pierre and move Pagan to CF. The Cubs get younger and cheaper in CF, while not losing any speed and picking up some power.

2) With the money saved on Pierre, Wood, Maddux, etc, sign the best available corner outfielder.

3) Platoon Jones and Murton in the other corner outfield position.

4) With the leftover money, sign one of the best available Starting Pitchers.

 

The Cubs would then be looking at a lineup of something like:

 

Izturis

Barrett

D. Lee

Ramirez

New Corner OF (ex. Soriano or C. Lee)

Jones/Murton

Pagan

Cedeno

 

And a pitching staff like:

 

Zambrano

New Starting Pitcher

Prior

Marshall/Hill

Guzman/Marmol

 

Add in the return of a solid bullpen, and possibly a relatively cheap Kerry Wood joining them, and I think this would be a solid team that would compete for the division. All it would take is 2 players, and virtually no change in payroll.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

A couple things:

 

1) Izturis leading off would be a nightmare

 

2) I'd rather just put Pie in CF than put Pagan there.

[Irrelevant Dude]

A couple things:

 

1) Izturis leading off would be a nightmare

 

2) I'd rather just put Pie in CF than put Pagan there.

 

Well, that was just a rough lineup and Pie would be there eventually, but right now Pagan is a better player. Pie could use one more year at Iowa. Better to fill the position cheaply with Pagan than paying 6-7 million per year to bring Pierre back.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

A couple things:

 

1) Izturis leading off would be a nightmare

 

2) I'd rather just put Pie in CF than put Pagan there.

 

Well, that was just a rough lineup and Pie would be there eventually, but right now Pagan is a better player. Pie could use one more year at Iowa. Better to fill the position cheaply with Pagan than paying 6-7 million per year to bring Pierre back.

 

Agreed that Pagan would be better than Pierre. IMO, I don't think it'd be necessary to give Pie another year in Iowa, but if we have another CF like Pierre on opening day, I'd prefer Pie in AAA rather than the Major League bench.

[UMFan83]

I like your idea, but I don't think any lineup with both Cedeno and Izturis in it competes for the playoffs.

 

We need serious OBP upgrade, and I don't see Jimbo doing that.

[CubColtPacer]

I like your idea, but I don't think any lineup with both Cedeno and Izturis in it competes for the playoffs.

 

We need serious OBP upgrade, and I don't see Jimbo doing that.

 

Why do you think that is? There have been plenty of teams with 2 hitters like Cedeno and Izturis that have made the playoffs even in the last 5 years-the trick is what you surround hitters like that with.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I like your idea, but I don't think any lineup with both Cedeno and Izturis in it competes for the playoffs.

 

We need serious OBP upgrade, and I don't see Jimbo doing that.

 

Why do you think that is? There have been plenty of teams with 2 hitters like Cedeno and Izturis that have made the playoffs even in the last 5 years-the trick is what you surround hitters like that with.

 

That's the rub. The rest of the lineup isn't close enough to being that good that it would take quite a retooling to bring it to that level. Much easier to get an offensively competent middle infielder.

[CubColtPacer]

I like your idea, but I don't think any lineup with both Cedeno and Izturis in it competes for the playoffs.

 

We need serious OBP upgrade, and I don't see Jimbo doing that.

 

Why do you think that is? There have been plenty of teams with 2 hitters like Cedeno and Izturis that have made the playoffs even in the last 5 years-the trick is what you surround hitters like that with.

 

That's the rub. The rest of the lineup isn't close enough to being that good that it would take quite a retooling to bring it to that level. Much easier to get an offensively competent middle infielder.

 

True-and I'm an advocate of replacing Cedeno. Teams like the Cardinals and Astros last year though had 3 players who couldn't put up a .700 OPS, and in fact the Astros had 3 players where the highest player had a .654 OPS with OBP's of .319, .299, and .294 and slugging of .324, .323, and .293. The rest of their offense wasn't as good as ours either. No, we don't have as good of pitching as they did, but teams can contend and even make the WS with 2 or 3 bad hitters, depending on the rest of the team.

[gflore34]

What about something like:

 

1. Letting Pierre walk

2. Moving Jones to CF

3. Moving Murton to RF

4. Sign Carlos Lee to play LF

5. Extend Aramis Ramirez

 

go with a lineup of:

 

Murton

Barrett

D. Lee

Ramirez

C. Lee

Jones

Cedeno

Izturis

P

 

I believe Murton and Barrett will get on base at a pretty rate ahead of D.Lee, Ramirez and C. Lee of course, the bottom of the order would be a void. And someone besides Dusty Baker would have to be the Manager, no way would he bat a non-speedy OF and a C 1&2, only a speedy OF and a MI can bat 1&2 in Dusty' world.

[neely crenshaw]

geez, we have spent 3 seasons complaining that we need a lead off guy, we destryoed a players cubs career because of making him hit lead off, we finally get one and he does pretty well and now we want try to make pagan or pie a centerfielder and possible lead off guy..or worse have izturis, with his .280 obp. hit lead off...not very smart.

we either sign pierre or look for a 2b that has proven he can hit lead off. if pie is too come up then murton or cedeno has to go (or izturis) that doesn't make sense to me. we should leave pagan in a semi platoon with murton..it has certainly worked.

our problem is we are stuck with jones for 2 more years. he has played well but he blocks pie from coming up..unless we drop murton, move cedeno back to short(and drop izturis) or drop cedeno and grab a lead off guy.

sorry guys but the all mighty hendry has put us in a corner. i think our starting line up will be..

pierre cf

izturis ss

lee 1b

aram 3b

barrett c

jones rf

murton lf

cedeno 2b

p

 

the easiest fix is to sign two starting pitchers and have this pretty good defensive team play behind them. we will score a little better with lee there.

unless we eat a lot of contracts or move our kids that actually are coming around, we don't have much room to move. we also don't have a good enough lineup to depend on a bunch of kids in the rotation or a bunch of injury plagued bums either.

[Magnetic Curses]

I like your idea, but I don't think any lineup with both Cedeno and Izturis in it competes for the playoffs.

 

We need serious OBP upgrade, and I don't see Jimbo doing that.

 

Why do you think that is? There have been plenty of teams with 2 hitters like Cedeno and Izturis that have made the playoffs even in the last 5 years-the trick is what you surround hitters like that with.

 

That's the rub. The rest of the lineup isn't close enough to being that good that it would take quite a retooling to bring it to that level. Much easier to get an offensively competent middle infielder.

 

True-and I'm an advocate of replacing Cedeno. Teams like the Cardinals and Astros last year though had 3 players who couldn't put up a .700 OPS, and in fact the Astros had 3 players where the highest player had a .654 OPS with OBP's of .319, .299, and .294 and slugging of .324, .323, and .293. The rest of their offense wasn't as good as ours either. No, we don't have as good of pitching as they did, but teams can contend and even make the WS with 2 or 3 bad hitters, depending on the rest of the team.

 

are you actually trying to compare the 05 astros to the 07 cubs?

 

if the cubs have 3 starting pitchers (with over 200 innings pitched) next season with eras under 3 (and 1 with an era under 2), i'll eat my hat.

 

they'll have to decrease their team era by over a run, acquire at least 1 more top of the rotation ace, possibly 2--and hope the bullpen can retain a semblance of stasis (which doesn't usually happen with bullpens).

 

the 05 astros team era is only eclipsed by the other team that you mentioned. a team with all 5 starters around, at, or above 200 innings and with era all around, at , or below 4.

 

unbelieveable, you continue to compare apples to oranges and pretend as if it's some kind of validation of putting a sub-par offensive team out there.

 

teams with amazing pitching staffs are GOOD, they can compete with other teams. we do NOT have an amazing staff and have little hope of fielding one. thusly, we must compete offensively with other teams. why can't you understand this?

[goonys evil twin]

A GM's job is to give his team the best chance to win. It's not to do the bare minimum in an effort to emulate teams that once got by with extremely great pitching (that couldn't be, and wasn't, repeated) covering up for other shortcomings.

[soapy]

A few things:

 

1. Why anyone would rather replace Cedeno then Izturis is beyond me.

2. There is no way that Pierre should be brought back at the price he will demand. As much as I'd hate to rush Pie, I'd prefer him in CF next year instead of more Pierre.

3. I really don't see Hendry/Baker (if he's back) being creative enough to move Jones to CF (if Jones would even agree to play there).

4. I'm starting to doubt there is enough money to pick up both as stud corner OFer and a front-line starting pitcher with all the money being wasted on Rusch, Neifi, Izturis, etc. I hope I'm wrong about that.

 

My guess is Hendry is going to have to get creative with some trades to fill the corner OF spot (likely by trading some young pitching). I won't hold my breath on that one.

[BigbadB]

2007 is done. Nothing Hendry does will make this team competitive next year.

 

And if Baker is the manager again next year, I'll get a lot more done in my real life. Because I'm not going to waste my time watching what will surely be another joke of a season.

[goonys evil twin]

4. I'm starting to doubt there is enough money to pick up both as stud corner OFer and a front-line starting pitcher with all the money being wasted on Rusch, Neifi, Izturis, etc. I hope I'm wrong about that.

 

I think there is enough, although that would change if Pierre got a 3/30. They also can't handle any more Rusch/Neifi signings. That means no signing a possible 5th starter or other worthless garbage.

[goonys evil twin]

2007 is done. Nothing Hendry does will make this team competitive next year.

 

And if Baker is the manager again next year, I'll get a lot more done in my real life. Because I'm not going to waste my time watching what will surely be another joke of a season.

 

I love not being the most pessimistic Cubs fan. I still hold out hope that Hendry could see the light and make a couple good moves. I'm not confident at all, but holding out hope.

[cheapseats]

A few things:

 

 

3. I really don't see Hendry/Baker (if he's back) being creative enough to move Jones to CF (if Jones would even agree to play there).

 

I've read interviews in which Jones says he still sees himself as a centerfielder. He was only moved to RF to allow Torii Hunter to play CF.

 

But I agree, Hendry is not that creative.

[soapy]

4. I'm starting to doubt there is enough money to pick up both as stud corner OFer and a front-line starting pitcher with all the money being wasted on Rusch, Neifi, Izturis, etc. I hope I'm wrong about that.

 

I think there is enough, although that would change if Pierre got a 3/30. They also can't handle any more Rusch/Neifi signings. That means no signing a possible 5th starter or other worthless garbage.

I hope so. I still think Hendry needs to make a trade to upgrade the offense though, beit at CF, 2B, SS or whatever. Having Pierre, Cedeno and Izturis in the same lineup will severly limit the offensive potential.

[soapy]

A few things:

 

 

3. I really don't see Hendry/Baker (if he's back) being creative enough to move Jones to CF (if Jones would even agree to play there).

 

I've read interviews in which Jones says he still sees himself as a centerfielder. He was only moved to RF to allow Torii Hunter to play CF.

 

But I agree, Hendry is not that creative.

I've not seen that. It would certainly be a welcome move.

[BigbadB]

2007 is done. Nothing Hendry does will make this team competitive next year.

 

And if Baker is the manager again next year, I'll get a lot more done in my real life. Because I'm not going to waste my time watching what will surely be another joke of a season.

 

I love not being the most pessimistic Cubs fan. I still hold out hope that Hendry could see the light and make a couple good moves. I'm not confident at all, but holding out hope.

 

Yeah, I recall giving you a ration or two about your pessimism. I've definitely surpassed you. I don't think a good GM could fix what Hendry has done, so I have little hope that Hendry can fix it.

 

With Cedeno, Izturis and Neifi in the middle infield, at least 1 of them will have a regular gig. I'm assuming it will be Izturis since they just traded for him. Loretta and Tejada would be a much better middle infield, but I don't see Hendry having the pieces to acquire a guy like Tejada and I don't think he values what Loretta brings to the table.

 

Aramis just might walk. His agent will be checking into his options. San Diego would be a great fit, IMO. With Klesko, Park, Williams and Piazza off the books, they could easily afford 10m+ for Aramis. Heck, they could afford Aramis and Zito.

 

Hendry appreciates Pierre's hard work and dedication. That will drive Hendry to bring him back. Production seems to take a back seat. To Hendry, Pierre is still a prototypical lead off hitter, even though he gets on base no better than a utility infielder.

 

The few decent power bats available this offseason will be very sought after, and I have no faith in Hendry to land one of them.

 

The pitching staff is in shambles and may not ever recover.

[C.C.]

Aramis just might walk. His agent will be checking into his options. San Diego would be a great fit, IMO. With Klesko, Park, Williams and Piazza off the books, they could easily afford 10m+ for Aramis. Heck, they could afford Aramis and Zito.

 

He'll end up being a Cub. I'm sure the Cubs will tack on 2 more years at a higher salary. They won't lose ARAM unless they have a killer backup plan and you know they don't...

[goonys evil twin]

2007 is done. Nothing Hendry does will make this team competitive next year.

 

And if Baker is the manager again next year, I'll get a lot more done in my real life. Because I'm not going to waste my time watching what will surely be another joke of a season.

 

I love not being the most pessimistic Cubs fan. I still hold out hope that Hendry could see the light and make a couple good moves. I'm not confident at all, but holding out hope.

 

Yeah, I recall giving you a ration or two about your pessimism. I've definitely surpassed you. I don't think a good GM could fix what Hendry has done, so I have little hope that Hendry can fix it.

 

But I could.......

 

 

Seriously though, this team is in a worse position than it was a couple years ago. Before it was just an annoyance that Hendry concentrated on the wrong things. Even though he was making it more difficult to win, it wasn't impossible, and still quite possible to make the team quite good with just a couple moves. Now it's a little more difficult.

 

But baseball is all about odds. The best teams have real good odds to contend. Mediocre teams have longer odds, but can still do it. Hendry, unfortunately, relies a lot on good breaks or many peaks occuring at the same time to make an otherwise ho-hum roster look pretty great. It's a bad way to create a team, but it does not guarantee failure, it only increased the likelihood of failure.

[goonys evil twin]

Aramis just might walk. His agent will be checking into his options. San Diego would be a great fit, IMO. With Klesko, Park, Williams and Piazza off the books, they could easily afford 10m+ for Aramis. Heck, they could afford Aramis and Zito.

 

He'll end up being a Cub. I'm sure the Cubs will tack on 2 more years at a higher salary. They won't lose ARAM unless they have a killer backup plan and you know they don't...

 

I know they don't have a killer backup plan, but they might think they have one. If Hendry finds a harder working, gutsier, clutchier, faster, defensiver option, he might just let Ramirez walk. Hopefully not.

[Sammy Sofa]

The Cubs are completely screwed for 2007...I'd bet serious cash on it.

 

With or without Ramirez, odds are the infield will be pitiful offensively. Keeping Aramis would be like putting a Band-Aid on a head wound at this point. Lee is coming off of a big injury and has career numbers that, 2005 aside, don't really light the world on fire. Cedeno as the starting 2B or SS is completely wrong either way. Yeah, he's young, blah-blah-blah...either the Cubs suck it up and toss out a truly craptacular team the next 2-3 years trying out guys like Cedeno and Murton or they neeed to make some serious moves. Izturis can't hit and his defense MIGHT be better than Neifi's at best. Players like Cedeno & Izturis have hideous OBP that are only going to hurt this team. Murton has shown some impressive discipline, but he doesn't have the power to be a starting corner outfielder. Yeah, I know we're supposed to wait for it, but how long? When would he officially be declared a 4th outfielder or good platoon partner? How long is this team and the fans supposed to wait? Cedeno and Murton, on a better run team, would get their "practice time" as the primary middle infield/corner outfield backups respectively. I'm all for letting them play the rest of the way this year, but I'm not optimistic that either player reguarly starting in 2007 is going to help this team.

[CubsBullsBears]

TO FIX THE CUBS: FIRE DUSTY!!