Hill recalled (7/24) / Aardsma to AAA (7/27)

[CubinNY]

Yeah Rich, we've given you so many consistent chances as a starter. What's wrong with you??

 

Wait a sec. now? The job was his to win in ST and both Guzman and Marshall out pitched him. So lets not here the Cubs don't give Rich Hill many chances. It's not how many chances you are given. It's how you take advantage of those chances when you are given them..

 

So that's why I haven't won the lottery.

 

Hill hasn't been given a chance. The worst thing is, I believe he still won't be given a chance. He'll get 3 maybe 4 starts and that's if he is good in his first one. Then when Marshall comes back he'll be moved to the bullpen or sent back to AAA.

 

He's been given a decent chance and hasn't shown the ability to pitch at the ML level. Marshall has definately outpitched Hill this year and has earned his spot in the rotation. In Hill's four starts this year he has given up 5, 5, 3, 7 ER respectively. In Marshall's first four starts this year he gave up 4, 4, 2, 0 ER respectively. Marshall showed progress. Hill didn't. He shouldn't get more than 3 or 4 starts to show he can pitch at the ML level. If he has four outings like he did earlier in the year, he shouldn't be given many more. Now, on the other hand, if Hill shows progress, then keep him in the rotation.

Marshall has been terrible since then, so I guess he hasn't really shown that much prorgress overall.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=5905&position=P&page=0&type=full

 

Just goes to show one, that four starts don't a career make.

 

You should see a doctor for your myopia.

 

Yeah, Marshall was terrible on May 1, May 6, May 17, May 27, June 2, June 7, and July 5. I realize that he hasn't been great recently, but if Marshall has been "terrible", how would you classify Hill?

 

That's not the point is it? By your post Marshall grabbing the brass ring when given a chance. Well guess what, he dropped it a long time ago yet he's still been thrown out there.

 

Meanwhile we all know the story with Hill. Even still, he hasn't been given a chance and has been heavily criticized by the big league manager and GM. On top of that, he STILL wouldn't be up if not for an injury.

Edited July 24, 2006 by CubinNY

[goonys evil twin]

I've honestly never understood the Rich Hill love on this board. What has he done in the ML to garner so much love? Rich Hill will never be a Bona-Fide ML starter. He's role eventually will be a lefty specialist.

 

I've never understood your Rich Hill hate, or your flip-flopping on the Rich Hill issue. Haven't you been calling for his promotion recently?

 

Basically, I love it when a Cubs prospect performs in the minor leagues. Rich Hill has performed to an exceptional degree. When a player reaches a certain age and he has performed well for a certain amount of time, I want to see that player given ample time with the big league club. I do not love what Hill has done in the majors, but that doesn't mean he can't improve. The only way he can improve, however, is by getting a long opportunity, without worry about his manager or GM calling him out for supporting a teammate, or demoting him after one bad outing. If Hill gives up 5 runs in his first inning back, he should still start 5 days later. If he gives up 15 runs in his first 3 games, he should start a 4th. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by not starting Rich Hill every 5th day, but there is a chance to gain quite a bit.

[soccer10k]

I have made it clear that I am not a fan of Hill. I don't think he's nearly as good as a lot of people do, and I think his perceived trade value is his only redeeming quality.

 

Having said that, this club is [expletive] for not allowing him to showcase his talents in a consistent fashion to see if he can figure it out at this level. He has been roughed up and yanked. Sent to the bullpen then sent down. Called up a 2nd time, got roughed up, and deported once again. I would love to see Hill prove me wrong. Meanwhile, Marshall has been looked upon as though he's some sort of savior and is quite frankly putting up some bad numbers. (and yes, I understand the age, experience level, rookie bound to progress stuff, etc.) Hill is more deserving of a spot on this roster than Rusch, and he should be given that spot for the remainder of this season.

 

Marshall has shown the ability to get people out at the ML level and has made numerous quality starts this year. Obviously not every young pitcher is going to pitch like Jered Weaver or Liriano, but I want to see some progress which is what Marshall has shown at points this year. Has he had his setbacks? Of course. Most young pitchers do. But Hill hasn't shown any progress.

[goonys evil twin]

If Hill gets 3 or 4 starts this time up with the team and gets shelled each time, why continue to send him out every 5 days? Why not give somebody else a chance maybe Guzman or Ryu?

 

A) Because the Cubs have to make a decision on Hill soon, due to his age. 3 or 4 starts isn't enough time to make that decision.

 

B) Those other guys have time.

 

C) Those other guys have injury issues that don't need to be rushed.

 

D) There's nothing to say other people can't start along with Hill. Marmol and Marshall are hurt. Zambrano has pitched too much. Maddux should be gone. Prior is day-to-day. Hill can pitch every 5 days and you could still find space for other guys.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I have made it clear that I am not a fan of Hill. I don't think he's nearly as good as a lot of people do, and I think his perceived trade value is his only redeeming quality.

 

Having said that, this club is [expletive] for not allowing him to showcase his talents in a consistent fashion to see if he can figure it out at this level. He has been roughed up and yanked. Sent to the bullpen then sent down. Called up a 2nd time, got roughed up, and deported once again. I would love to see Hill prove me wrong. Meanwhile, Marshall has been looked upon as though he's some sort of savior and is quite frankly putting up some bad numbers. (and yes, I understand the age, experience level, rookie bound to progress stuff, etc.) Hill is more deserving of a spot on this roster than Rusch, and he should be given that spot for the remainder of this season.

 

Marshall has shown the ability to get people out at the ML level and has made numerous quality starts this year. Obviously not every young pitcher is going to pitch like Jered Weaver or Liriano, but I want to see some progress which is what Marshall has shown at points this year. Has he had his setbacks? Of course. Most young pitchers do. But Hill hasn't shown any progress.

 

Like I said, I have never been a fan of Rich Hill, but I don't think he's been given a consistent shot. His one shot this year was when the team was playing arguably their worst baseball of the season. He deserves a shot to go out every fifth day for the rest of this season.

[fromthestretch]

Yeah Rich, we've given you so many consistent chances as a starter. What's wrong with you??

 

Wait a sec. now? The job was his to win in ST and both Guzman and Marshall out pitched him. So lets not here the Cubs don't give Rich Hill many chances. It's not how many chances you are given. It's how you take advantage of those chances when you are given them..

 

So that's why I haven't won the lottery.

 

Hill hasn't been given a chance. The worst thing is, I believe he still won't be given a chance. He'll get 3 maybe 4 starts and that's if he is good in his first one. Then when Marshall comes back he'll be moved to the bullpen or sent back to AAA.

 

He's been given a decent chance and hasn't shown the ability to pitch at the ML level. Marshall has definately outpitched Hill this year and has earned his spot in the rotation. In Hill's four starts this year he has given up 5, 5, 3, 7 ER respectively. In Marshall's first four starts this year he gave up 4, 4, 2, 0 ER respectively. Marshall showed progress. Hill didn't. He shouldn't get more than 3 or 4 starts to show he can pitch at the ML level. If he has four outings like he did earlier in the year, he shouldn't be given many more. Now, on the other hand, if Hill shows progress, then keep him in the rotation.

Marshall has been terrible since then, so I guess he hasn't really shown that much prorgress overall.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=5905&position=P&page=0&type=full

 

Just goes to show one, that four starts don't a career make.

 

You should see a doctor for your myopia.

 

Yeah, Marshall was terrible on May 1, May 6, May 17, May 27, June 2, June 7, and July 5. I realize that he hasn't been great recently, but if Marshall has been "terrible", how would you classify Hill?

 

So Hill should be sent down after four consecutive starts of 5, 5, 3, and 7 earned runs (20 total runs), but Marshall gets to keep his job after four consecutive starts of 5, 4, 4, and 4 earned runs (17 total...from 6/13-30)? What's the cutoff? 18 runs? 19 runs?

 

No one is denying that Hill has stuggled. But four starts this season is not enough to gauge how well he'll pitch in the long run. He had a few good outings last season, and has been indicated several times, it's highly doubtful he'd be any worse than Rusch has been, if given that spot.

[soccer10k]

If Hill gets 3 or 4 starts this time up with the team and gets shelled each time, why continue to send him out every 5 days? Why not give somebody else a chance maybe Guzman or Ryu?

 

A) Because the Cubs have to make a decision on Hill soon, due to his age. 3 or 4 starts isn't enough time to make that decision.

 

B) Those other guys have time.

 

C) Those other guys have injury issues that don't need to be rushed.

 

D) There's nothing to say other people can't start along with Hill. Marmol and Marshall are hurt. Zambrano has pitched too much. Maddux should be gone. Prior is day-to-day. Hill can pitch every 5 days and you could still find space for other guys.

 

Zambrano and Maddux are still there. Z isn't going to be shut down. I'm all for trading Maddux as well. The Cubs are also giving Prior a shot to show what he can do. There are three spots in the rotation and frankly, I don't care which guy makes those starts as long as his name isn't Glendon Rusch. Since there will be two spots open, something I forgot about until you mentioned Marmol so thank you for reminding me of that, let Hill start for a while. I would personally rather have Guzman starting over Hill, and was under the impression there was only one spot open, but I would like both starting over Gopher Ball.

[goonys evil twin]

Marshall has shown the ability to get people out at the ML level and has made numerous quality starts this year. Obviously not every young pitcher is going to pitch like Jered Weaver or Liriano, but I want to see some progress which is what Marshall has shown at points this year. Has he had his setbacks? Of course. Most young pitchers do. But Hill hasn't shown any progress.

 

Hill hasn't had the chance to progress. The problem with your theory is that if your 4 best starts are your first ones, then you get to keep your job, but if they are your 11-14th starts, and your first 4 were as bad as the other guys 5-8, then you lose out while the other guy keeps pitching. Doesn't make much sense. It's not like Hill has never gotten through a major league inning.

 

Just look at Hill's first 4 extended outings last year.

4.1, O H, 0 R, 6 K, 2 BB

5.0, 5 H, 2 R, 5 K, 2 BB

6.0, 5 H, 2 R, 4 K, 2 BB

1.1, 7 H, 7 R, 1 K, 2 BB

 

The difference with him is he had a full month between his first opportunity and his 2nd. He suffered a setback and then was given no chance to redeem himself later. Marshall had some decent, but hardly special outings early, suffered some setbacks, and was allowed to keep pitching. That's good. But that's the same chance Hill should have gotten.

[fromthestretch]

At least Guzman has shown the ability to get people out at some point in his short ML career.

 

So has Hill.

 

6/22/05 - in relief vs. MIL

4.1 IP, no hits, no runs, 2 BB, 6 K

 

7/25/05 (his next appearance...over a month later) - start vs. SF

5.0 IP, 5 H, 2 R (both earned), 2 BB, 5 K

 

7/30/05 - start vs. ARI

6.0 IP, 5 H, 2 R (both earned), 2 BB, 4 K

 

Then he had two bad starts and they sent him down.

 

 

EDIT: Sorry, goony. Didn't mean to repeat what you just posted.

Edited July 24, 2006 by grassbass

[C.C.]

I've honestly never understood the Rich Hill love on this board. What has he done in the ML to garner so much love? Rich Hill will never be a Bona-Fide ML starter. He's role eventually will be a lefty specialist.

 

I've never understood your Rich Hill hate, or your flip-flopping on the Rich Hill issue. Haven't you been calling for his promotion recently?

 

Basically, I love it when a Cubs prospect performs in the minor leagues. Rich Hill has performed to an exceptional degree. When a player reaches a certain age and he has performed well for a certain amount of time, I want to see that player given ample time with the big league club. I do not love what Hill has done in the majors, but that doesn't mean he can't improve. The only way he can improve, however, is by getting a long opportunity, without worry about his manager or GM calling him out for supporting a teammate, or demoting him after one bad outing. If Hill gives up 5 runs in his first inning back, he should still start 5 days later. If he gives up 15 runs in his first 3 games, he should start a 4th. There is absolutely nothing to be gained by not starting Rich Hill every 5th day, but there is a chance to gain quite a bit.

 

He should get a chance. What do we got to lose! At best he'll be a starter for the Cubs and at worse he'll be sent back down to AAA. What's left to prove in the minors? He deserves the chance to prove himself on the ML level. I'm hoping he does well...In fact I'm praying he does well, but nothing and I mean nothing that I've seen has given me any hope that he'll be a bona-fide major league starter.

[CUBZ99]

Hill's number in AAA this year have been absolutely incredible. Hendry claims that when he was sent down earlier in the year, the Cubs had him working on a new pitch and/or new pitching approach. Hendry also stated that it has been a success. The guy has nothing to prove in AAA, give him a shot to work his way through some of his problems in the majors.

[C.C.]

Hill's number in AAA this year have been absolutely incredible. Hendry claims that when he was sent down earlier in the year, the Cubs had him working on a new pitch and/or new pitching approach. Hendry also stated that it has been a success. The guy has nothing to prove in AAA, give him a shot to work his way through some of his problems in the majors.

 

I think every single Cubs fan in the world know about Hill dominance in AAA. That doesn't help the Cubs in anyway unless Hill steps up.

[abuck1220]

Hill's number in AAA this year have been absolutely incredible. Hendry claims that when he was sent down earlier in the year, the Cubs had him working on a new pitch and/or new pitching approach. Hendry also stated that it has been a success. The guy has nothing to prove in AAA, give him a shot to work his way through some of his problems in the majors.

 

I think every single Cubs fan in the world know about Hill dominance in AAA. That doesn't help the Cubs in anyway unless Hill steps up.

 

and sending him down after two bad starts doesn't help the cubs in any way either.

[abuck1220]

as i said in another thread, baker's comments about how hill has to just "do it" when he gets here cracks me up. he acts like his patience with hill, after all of four starts, is just at the end of the line, and he's so fed up with hill ruining his season.

 

meanwhile, he seems pretty content with the failure of pierre, maddux, rusch, neifi, etc to "do it" over the course of an entire season and at 20 times the salary.

[KaiserCesar]

Marshall has shown the ability to get people out at the ML level and has made numerous quality starts this year. Obviously not every young pitcher is going to pitch like Jered Weaver or Liriano, but I want to see some progress which is what Marshall has shown at points this year. Has he had his setbacks? Of course. Most young pitchers do. But Hill hasn't shown any progress.

 

Hill hasn't had the chance to progress. The problem with your theory is that if your 4 best starts are your first ones, then you get to keep your job, but if they are your 11-14th starts, and your first 4 were as bad as the other guys 5-8, then you lose out while the other guy keeps pitching. Doesn't make much sense. It's not like Hill has never gotten through a major league inning.

 

Just look at Hill's first 4 extended outings last year.

4.1, O H, 0 R, 6 K, 2 BB

5.0, 5 H, 2 R, 5 K, 2 BB

6.0, 5 H, 2 R, 4 K, 2 BB

1.1, 7 H, 7 R, 1 K, 2 BB

 

The difference with him is he had a full month between his first opportunity and his 2nd. He suffered a setback and then was given no chance to redeem himself later. Marshall had some decent, but hardly special outings early, suffered some setbacks, and was allowed to keep pitching. That's good. But that's the same chance Hill should have gotten.

 

And that 7 run game was just a defensive fiasco where groundballs didn't turn into outs.

 

Hill needs his chance at age 26. He's too much of an unknown at this point and an extended look allows Hendry to handle filling out the rotation a little more in the offseason.

[Chris]

Why is it so obvious that you think that Dusty and Larry have something against Hill? Don't you think that a ERA over 9 has something to do with him not being on the big club?

 

In regards to Larry, he may not have something against Hill, but Larry's coaching could very well be part of the problem.

[C.C.]

And that 7 run game was just a defensive fiasco where groundballs didn't turn into outs.

 

 

 

And the 5 BB's and 2 HR's in 4 innings didn't help either.

[CheeseHead Cubs Fan]

as i said in another thread, baker's comments about how hill has to just "do it" when he gets here cracks me up. he acts like his patience with hill, after all of four starts, is just at the end of the line, and he's so fed up with hill ruining his season.

 

meanwhile, he seems pretty content with the failure of pierre, maddux, rusch, neifi, etc to "do it" over the course of an entire season and at 20 times the salary.

 

While I agree with your thought process, I find it hard to lump Maddux (a hall of fame 300+ winning pitcher) in with the rest of those scrubs.

[C.C.]

as i said in another thread, baker's comments about how hill has to just "do it" when he gets here cracks me up. he acts like his patience with hill, after all of four starts, is just at the end of the line, and he's so fed up with hill ruining his season.

 

meanwhile, he seems pretty content with the failure of pierre, maddux, rusch, neifi, etc to "do it" over the course of an entire season and at 20 times the salary.

 

While I agree with your thought process, I find it hard to lump Maddux (a hall of fame 300+ winning pitcher) in with the rest of those scrubs.

 

Pierre has been playing really well as of late and Maddux numbers aren't bad for a projected 5th starter.

[KaiserCesar]

And that 7 run game was just a defensive fiasco where groundballs didn't turn into outs.

 

 

 

And the 5 BB's and 2 HR's in 4 innings didn't help either.

 

In which game?

[C.C.]

And that 7 run game was just a defensive fiasco where groundballs didn't turn into outs.

 

 

 

And the 5 BB's and 2 HR's in 4 innings didn't help either.

 

In which game?

 

The same game you mentioned. The Sox game.

[KaiserCesar]

And that 7 run game was just a defensive fiasco where groundballs didn't turn into outs.

 

 

 

And the 5 BB's and 2 HR's in 4 innings didn't help either.

 

In which game?

 

The same game you mentioned. The Sox game.

 

Actually, I was mentioning the 1.1 inning outing last year when I believe Nomar made his return at SS and he and Walker had a bunch of mental lapses.

[Chris]

I don't know what the answer is. Just come here and do it. It's simple. No more whys, no more how-comes, no more explanations ... no nothing.

 

I find this quote amazing coming from the same guy that has made sure to point out time after time that he has had rookies playing as well as players on the DL.

[abuck1220]

as i said in another thread, baker's comments about how hill has to just "do it" when he gets here cracks me up. he acts like his patience with hill, after all of four starts, is just at the end of the line, and he's so fed up with hill ruining his season.

 

meanwhile, he seems pretty content with the failure of pierre, maddux, rusch, neifi, etc to "do it" over the course of an entire season and at 20 times the salary.

 

While I agree with your thought process, I find it hard to lump Maddux (a hall of fame 300+ winning pitcher) in with the rest of those scrubs.

 

Pierre has been playing really well as of late and Maddux numbers aren't bad for a projected 5th starter.

 

pierre was absolutely worthless the first three months or whatever of the season. it's so nice of him to turn it on now that the cubs are 25 games under .500 so he can salvage a nice contract out of the whole ordeal.

 

maddux is not being paid like a 5th starter, and his performance over the past three months has fallen below what you'd want out of a fifth starter.

 

no matter how you slice it, those two have hurt the cubs this year much more than rich hill has. yet baker is acting as though he's at the end of his rope w/ hill.

[abuck1220]

I don't know what the answer is. Just come here and do it. It's simple. No more whys, no more how-comes, no more explanations ... no nothing.

 

I find this quote amazing coming from the same guy that has made sure to point out time after time that he has had rookies playing as well as players on the DL.

 

yeah, for someone who is constantly nay-saying excuses, he sure makes a lot of them.