When does futility become relative? (re: Cards)

[Derwood]

We've all been there, getting razzed by Cardinal fans for the 98 years of no World Series Title, blah, blah, blah. But 2007 will mark 25 years since the Cards have won the trophy. At what point can you turn this back on them? We'll always be at a disadvantage in terms of years, but the vaunted Cardinal team is verging on a quarter century here, which roughly equates to two full generations of baseball players. For many of fans, neither team has won in their lifetime. At that point, does it matter how long it's been? None of us here have been waiting since 1908....

[J.R.]

Not as long as the Cards win a pennant every once in a while. 1945 is a worse marker for futility than 1908, IMHO.

[Derwood]

Not as long as the Cards win a pennant every once in a while. 1945 is a worse marker for futility than 1908, IMHO.

 

Yes, but one can argue that if that ultimate goal is to win the World Series, the difference between the pennant and last place isn't too big. I mean there is the "the team always sucks and never makes the postseason bad", and then there's the "Atlanta Braves always win the division but choke in the playoffs" bad. I don't know which woudl be more frustrating

[K-Town]

We've all been there, getting razzed by Cardinal fans for the 98 years of no World Series Title, blah, blah, blah. But 2007 will mark 25 years since the Cards have won the trophy. At what point can you turn this back on them? We'll always be at a disadvantage in terms of years, but the vaunted Cardinal team is verging on a quarter century here, which roughly equates to two full generations of baseball players. For many of fans, neither team has won in their lifetime. At that point, does it matter how long it's been? None of us here have been waiting since 1908....

 

Trust me, many Cardinal fans feel the heat on this already.

 

It's been too long. We're DYING for a world championship. In the meantime, it seems a little selfish to complain about 100-win seasons for consecutive years. I LOVE the make-up of the recent teams, but there's definitely an empty spot............ and 1982 was a LONG time ago.

 

So yeah........ there's some substance to what you're saying.

[illiniguy]

If karma has anything to do wih it they should never win again. I love how the best fans in baseball take such joy in the fact that two of our young arms have been ruined.

[Catman61]

If karma has anything to do wih it they should never win again. I love how the best fans in baseball take such joy in the fact that two of our young arms have been ruined.

 

Karma? While I won't be so foolish as to make a claim inferring that ALL Cub fans have done this, there is no doubt that the name Rick Ankiel has been used in a similar manner at times.

 

There have even been a few mocking Daryl Kile.

 

Bottomline, there always some fans in every fan base that true fans would rather not claim as their own and to blame or label an entire fan base based on the few is wrong.

[Banedon]

If karma has anything to do wih it they should never win again. I love how the best fans in baseball take such joy in the fact that two of our young arms have been ruined.

 

Karma? While I won't be so foolish as to make a claim inferring that ALL Cub fans have done this, there is no doubt that the name Rick Ankiel has been used in a similar manner at times.

 

There have even been a few mocking Daryl Kile.

 

Bottomline, there always some fans in every fan base that true fans would rather not claim as their own and to blame or label an entire fan base based on the few is wrong.

 

Agreed. While I'm sure most of us weren't happy to hear of an injury, I don't think many were crying that Pujols wasn't playing either. Just the nature of sports.

[illiniguy]

If karma has anything to do wih it they should never win again. I love how the best fans in baseball take such joy in the fact that two of our young arms have been ruined.

 

Karma? While I won't be so foolish as to make a claim inferring that ALL Cub fans have done this, there is no doubt that the name Rick Ankiel has been used in a similar manner at times.

 

There have even been a few mocking Daryl Kile.

 

Bottomline, there always some fans in every fan base that true fans would rather not claim as their own and to blame or label an entire fan base based on the few is wrong.

Anyone who mocks Daryl Kile is just a class act and odds are will amount to a lot in this world. I think most people mock LaRussa's use of Ankiel more than anything.

[XZero771679666304]

If karma has anything to do wih it they should never win again. I love how the best fans in baseball take such joy in the fact that two of our young arms have been ruined.

 

Karma? While I won't be so foolish as to make a claim inferring that ALL Cub fans have done this, there is no doubt that the name Rick Ankiel has been used in a similar manner at times.

 

There have even been a few mocking Daryl Kile.

 

Bottomline, there always some fans in every fan base that true fans would rather not claim as their own and to blame or label an entire fan base based on the few is wrong.

 

I would never mock Kile, because death is not funny.

 

But I will admit to reveling a bit in Ankiel's failure, and deriving at least a modicum of satisfaction from Pujol's injury. If Carpenter were to have season ending surgery tomorrow, you wouldn't find me crying about it. Of course many Cards fans take some pleasure in the fact the the Cubs vaunted rotation has thus far been a flop. When you have a rivlary like the Cubs/Cards or Sox/Yanks, it's to be expected.

 

Now things like saying Prior takes a liner in the head or making light of Kile's death are just going too far (unless it's about A.J. Pierzynski).

[Banedon]

If karma has anything to do wih it they should never win again. I love how the best fans in baseball take such joy in the fact that two of our young arms have been ruined.

 

Karma? While I won't be so foolish as to make a claim inferring that ALL Cub fans have done this, there is no doubt that the name Rick Ankiel has been used in a similar manner at times.

 

There have even been a few mocking Daryl Kile.

 

Bottomline, there always some fans in every fan base that true fans would rather not claim as their own and to blame or label an entire fan base based on the few is wrong.

Anyone who mocks Daryl Kile is just a class act and odds are will amount to a lot in this world. I think most people mock LaRussa's use of Ankiel more than anything.

 

Did you mean to put a "not" in there somewhere?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

While this thread is in regard to the Cardinals, I had the same thought in Houston a few weeks back. After the second game of the series, I was simply minding my business talking to a few friends, when a group of drunken Astro fans walked by and shouted "1908" several times at me. I just responded, "Yeah, I know it's been a long time, but when was the last Astros championship?"

 

They said "It hasn't been that long." And I said, "Oh really, I wasn't aware that you had ever won the whole thing."

 

They said, "We've only been around since 1960-something..." which I found funny since they didn't even know when the franchise began.

 

But either way...I responded, "So you've NEVER won it all....well, I'll take 98 years to never."

 

I just find it funny that a franchise who has never won has fans like that. Seems like they are just as futile as the Cubs until they win one.

[mjohnson71]

I've thought about the same thing when at my last Cubs/Cards series at Busch. But then I backed off when I remembered that 24 is much less than 98.

 

Plus with MLB (and all the major sports) now having 30 or more teams, winning a championship will become less frequent event. Why couldn't the Cubs have won sometime between 1908 and the expansion of the early 60's when there was like 14 or 16 teams in the big leagues?

 

If anyone has the right to be ashamed it's the Braves and their poor post-season record after winning the division for like 15 years straight.

[ManCrushOnNomar]

Now things like saying Prior takes a liner in the head or making light of Kile's death are just going too far (unless it's about A.J. Pierzynski).

I just got sick to my stomach listening to Mike North go on about why AJ should be considered the AL MVP.

[snoodmonger]

Now things like saying Prior takes a liner in the head or making light of Kile's death are just going too far (unless it's about A.J. Pierzynski).

I just got sick to my stomach listening to Mike North....

 

You could have stopped right there.

[ManCrushOnNomar]

Now things like saying Prior takes a liner in the head or making light of Kile's death are just going too far (unless it's about A.J. Pierzynski).

I just got sick to my stomach listening to Mike North....

 

You could have stopped right there.

hahaha, truth.

 

Unfortunately 1000 doesn't come in nearly as well as 670 down here, so I'm forced to endure his coked* up ramblings.

 

 

 

*just an assumption based on his high energy levels and stupid comments.

[soccer10k]

I've thought about the same thing when at my last Cubs/Cards series at Busch. But then I backed off when I remembered that 24 is much less than 98.

 

Plus with MLB (and all the major sports) now having 30 or more teams, winning a championship will become less frequent event. Why couldn't the Cubs have won sometime between 1908 and the expansion of the early 60's when there was like 14 or 16 teams in the big leagues?

 

If anyone has the right to be ashamed it's the Braves and their poor post-season record after winning the division for like 15 years straight.

 

At least the Braves won a World Series though. I understand that it is only one and they should have won more, but they did win one.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

Now things like saying Prior takes a liner in the head or making light of Kile's death are just going too far (unless it's about A.J. Pierzynski).

I just got sick to my stomach listening to Mike North go on about why AJ should be considered the AL MVP.

 

I don't want to completely derail thread, but yesterday A.J. Pyrzinski was on the local FOX sports show here in Chicago, The Final Word. He is a guest on the show every Sunday. And yesterday he did the show from his home in Lincoln Park. It seems these south side players live on the north side. Some also live in the southwest suburbs, but I know that Konerko, Pyrzinski andalthough he is gone Rowand are northsiders.

[soccer10k]

I don't think it becomes relative for a while. There are 11 other team that have longer World Series droughts than the Cards including 6 teams that have never won a World Series.

 

Link via Wikipedia

 

One drought that not many people know about is the Giants who haven't won a World Series since 1954 and have never won a World Series in San Francisco. I was talking to one of my friends that is a Giants fan a couple years ago and he brought out the 1908 card but 50 years is a long time.

 

Like somebody else said, with 30 teams in MLB now it does become harder to win. There are currently 15 teams with droughts of 20 years or more and that will become 16 unless the Mets win the World Series this year.

[wolf stansson]

If a season isn't considered a success unless your team wins the world series, then you are taking things FAR too seriously.

 

I've heard people in this thread saying the Braves should be ashamed beacuse they've won one series out of their slew of playoff appeareances. Are you insane?

 

When your team makes the playoffs, it means you've been rooting for a good team for 6 months. It means you got to root for a winner way more often than a loser. It means that your team is better than the majority of other fan's teams.

 

I'm not saying this because I'm a Cardinals fan, I just think it is true. To compare 4 postseason appearances in more than half a decade ('03, 98, 84, 45?) to the over a dozen that Cardinals have had in that span including 3 championships, 5 pennants, and 7 division titles is apples and oranges.

 

I am of the mindset that I don't rip on Cubs fans for not seeing a championship because I haven't either, but I have seen a lot more good times.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

If a season isn't considered a success unless your team wins the world series, then you are taking things FAR too seriously.

 

I've heard people in this thread saying the Braves should be ashamed beacuse they've won one series out of their slew of playoff appeareances. Are you insane?

 

When your team makes the playoffs, it means you've been rooting for a good team for 6 months. It means you got to root for a winner way more often than a loser. It means that your team is better than the majority of other fan's teams.

 

I'm not saying this because I'm a Cardinals fan, I just think it is true. To compare 4 postseason appearances in more than half a decade ('03, 98, 84, 45?) to the over a dozen that Cardinals have had in that span including 3 championships, 5 pennants, and 7 division titles is apples and oranges.

 

I am of the mindset that I don't rip on Cubs fans for not seeing a championship because I haven't either, but I have seen a lot more good times.

 

1989 doesn't count?

 

For the sake of argument, the Red Sox World Series appearances where they inevitably lost seemed to be discounted even by Red Sox fans themselves. It was about winning the whole enchilada.

Edited June 19, 2006 by RonnieWooWooSanto

[FergieJ31]

I think the "relative" part of relative drought really has to do with your age, right? There are certainly a ton of Cards fans who were too young or not yet born in '82 to revel in that glory, so they feel the "drought" more. By the same token, very few of us Cubs fans were around in 1908 so we don't FEEL the magnitude of that drought. (And incidentally I completely agree that the 1945 number is at least as embarrassing as the 1908 number).

 

And, like soccer10k said, there are 30 teams now, so teams shouldn't be expected to win more than once every thirty years on a purely statstical basis; the Cards have several more years at least to rest on their '82 laurels.

 

So no, there's absolutely no drought for the Cardinals, certainly not as long as they continue to ring up NL Central championships and a pennant or three in the intervening years (85, 87, 04).

[wolf stansson]

1989 doesn't count?

I'm not a Cubs historian, which is why I put the question mark. I am aware of the basics as a fan of baseball history, but wasn't aware they went to the playoffs in '89.

[RonnieWooWooSanto]

1989 doesn't count?

I'm not a Cubs historian, which is why I put the question mark. I am aware of the basics as a fan of baseball history, but wasn't aware they went to the playoffs in '89.

 

Sorry, as a Cub fan I we need to include all years. I jumped the gun by overlooking the question mark.

 

If the Cubs would have defeated the Giants in 1989 to make it to the World Series, there would have been no live televised earthquake.

[wolf stansson]

as a Cub fan I we need to include all years.

haha. I understand.

[Catman61]

1989 doesn't count?

I'm not a Cubs historian, which is why I put the question mark. I am aware of the basics as a fan of baseball history, but wasn't aware they went to the playoffs in '89.

 

Sorry, as a Cub fan I we need to include all years. I jumped the gun by overlooking the question mark.

 

If the Cubs would have defeated the Giants in 1989 to make it to the World Series, there would have been no live televised earthquake.

Because the world as we know it would have ended? :wink: