General Manager vs Manager

[Sosa21MVP]

Okay, I'm not a Dusty Baker apologist so I just want to make that clear upfront. :lol:

 

I've watched baseball for 20 years. No, that doesn't make me special and I don't claim to know anymore than the next guy/gal. But I want to throw out my personal observation.

 

I think the general manager position is more important than the manager. I think if the GM does his job correctly, a team should generate some good results regardless of whomever manages the team. A team that has the proper talent to be great is likely going to be great regardless of what buttons the manager pushes.

 

First, I think of the Atlanta Braves. 15 straight division titles. Now who gets credit for that incredible achievement? Bobby Cox? Or the GM whose name I can't spell right so I won't try. :wink: Scheurholz or however you spell it. I think in Atlanta, Cox is a good manager but the GM has done a fantastic job of consistently turning over that roster without putting Cox in a bad position.

 

Billy Beane in Oakland. Yes, the A's have not had postseason success but they remain highly competitive in a small market despite losing a high number of free agents such as Giambi, Tejada, Hudson, Mulder, etc.

 

Joe Torre struggled to win in St. Louis. Then he went to a Yankees organization that was operating under some semblance of sanity at the time and won 4 titles. Then King George went off the rocker again.

 

Jim Leyland. He won 3 division titles in Pittsburgh with talented teams. The talent eroded, he didn't win. He went to a loaded Florida team, won a title. He went to a mediocre Colorado team, didn't win. Now he is in Detroit with some nice young talent and winning.

 

Sparky Anderson. Did great things with great teams in Cincy and Detroit. Not so much great once the Tigers talent dropped off.

 

I guess I'm just stating the obvious??? But for all the calls for Dusty Baker to be fired, I just hope we keep in mind that simply changing the manager isn't the full solution. We need a GM who will put together true championship caliber teams. Jim Hendry has lost my faith and I know I am not alone.

 

Regardless of who manages the Cubs, we need a GM who will put that manager in the best position to achieve success.

 

Maybe I'm preaching to the choir, I don't know. I just had to post it.

 

Peace,

Steve

[bhogg]

I don't know that one is more important than the other. They definitely go hand-in-hand.

 

I know in the screwed world (aka: real world) that I live in, Supervisors are held responsible for their hires --- particularly the "high profile" types. In this situation, I think Hendry should be somewhat responsible for Baker.

 

I say "somewhat" because we really don't know if Hendry was the sole decision maker in the Baker process.

 

The way this organization is run, it wouldn't surprise me to know that the higher ups made the Dusty decision. It's pure speculation on my part, so don't flame me, hate me, or wish impending doom upon me, my friends, or my family.

[Backtobanks]

Obviously, the perfect solution is to have competence at both manager and GM. I have heard many complaints about Hendry, but I still think Baker is a much bigger problem than Hendry. In the last few years, look at the misuse of the personnel. Hawkins closing, Remlinger used against lefties, Neifi being put in the 2nd spot in the lineup and being the first bat off of the bench when he wasn't playing, Patterson leading off, the mishandling of the pitching staff, etc. From the start, Hendry has pushed for Dempster being the closer, more playing time for the kids, etc. Hendry's biggest faults are overpaying 2nd line players and his hands-off approach to Baker's decisions with personnel (including coaches). As many people have stated, Baker is a great guy and loyal to his players and coaches, but he doesn't make great decisions on the field or with his personnel.

[cubfan1955]

Agree with most of your points. I believe it is very rare when a manager wins a game for his team. On the other hand it is very possible for a manager to lose games and Dusty is King of this department. The combination of a bad GM anbd a bad manager makes this team doubly frustrating with not much hope in sight. There is just no excuse for this team having Bynum, Perez, Rusch, Hairston, Mabry, and Blanco on this team. Out of that group the best hitter is the pitcher.

[Derwood]

I'm curious when Hendry got his lobotomy. 3 years ago he was a genius when he fleeced the Pirates for A-Ram, Lofton and Simon. He got Lee for next to nothing. Everyone here thought he was the greatest thing to hit the front office in years.

 

Now he's suddenly less competent than Jim Bowden. Amazing how our perceptions change

[cubfan1955]

I'm curious when Hendry got his lobotomy. 3 years ago he was a genius when he fleeced the Pirates for A-Ram, Lofton and Simon. He got Lee for next to nothing. Everyone here thought he was the greatest thing to hit the front office in years.

 

Now he's suddenly less competent than Jim Bowden. Amazing how our perceptions change

Jose Macias, not once but twice, the 2nd time with a raise. Nefi not once but twice, the 2nd time with a BIG raise. Glendon Rusch, not once but twice, the 2nd time wiht a BIG raise. Bynum. Mabry. Lenny Harris. O'Leary. The list goes on.

[BigbadB]

I'm curious when Hendry got his lobotomy. 3 years ago he was a genius when he fleeced the Pirates for A-Ram, Lofton and Simon. He got Lee for next to nothing. Everyone here thought he was the greatest thing to hit the front office in years.

 

Now he's suddenly less competent than Jim Bowden. Amazing how our perceptions change

 

Any explanation for why W's approval rating has gone from high 50's to 29%?

 

In the famous words of Janet Jackson: "What have you done for me lately?"

[JC]

I'm curious when Hendry got his lobotomy. 3 years ago he was a genius when he fleeced the Pirates for A-Ram, Lofton and Simon. He got Lee for next to nothing. Everyone here thought he was the greatest thing to hit the front office in years.

 

Now he's suddenly less competent than Jim Bowden. Amazing how our perceptions change

 

Not all of our perceptions have changed.

 

The example you set forth above lends credence to those of us that believe that deal wasn't a fleecing, but rather a logical result of being at the right place, at the right time, with the right periphrial circumstances.

 

That is to say, the ARam deal didn't require a genius to construct. The Pirates were hamstrung by salary and inept organizational direction. Hendry needed a 3B and the Pirates were an obvious fit.

 

However, if you look closely at that deal and recall the circumstances surrounding, there exists room for criticism as Hendry allowed Pittsburgh to hold the Cubs hostage with the PTBNL (who ended up being Hill). Recall that Grudz got injured and was out for an extended period. The only logical replacement for the Cubs was Bobby Hill. Whether you are a Hill hater or not, he would have been nice to have on hand during Grudz's injury. However, Hendry's lack of foresight failed to recognize that giving the Pirates a number of days to choose between Hill and Beltran hurt the club due to its lack of middle infield options.

 

Hendry if not remotely the GM some hold him out to be.

[Backtobanks]

I'm curious when Hendry got his lobotomy. 3 years ago he was a genius when he fleeced the Pirates for A-Ram, Lofton and Simon. He got Lee for next to nothing. Everyone here thought he was the greatest thing to hit the front office in years.

 

Now he's suddenly less competent than Jim Bowden. Amazing how our perceptions change

 

A perfect example is Kenny Williams. 3 years ago he was the village idiot and now he's considered one of the best GMs.

[Derwood]

The Pirates were hamstrung by salary and inept organizational direction.

 

Sounds like another orginization I know....

[Monco]

I'm curious when Hendry got his lobotomy. 3 years ago he was a genius when he fleeced the Pirates for A-Ram, Lofton and Simon. He got Lee for next to nothing. Everyone here thought he was the greatest thing to hit the front office in years.

 

Now he's suddenly less competent than Jim Bowden. Amazing how our perceptions change

 

Feb 2 2005. He traded Sosa for nothing and signed Burnitz.

[bhogg]

can we cut all of our players and start over from scratch?

 

hell, that won't work. . . .same ol' higher ups.

[CubfaninCA]

I'm curious when Hendry got his lobotomy. 3 years ago he was a genius when he fleeced the Pirates for A-Ram, Lofton and Simon. He got Lee for next to nothing. Everyone here thought he was the greatest thing to hit the front office in years.

 

Now he's suddenly less competent than Jim Bowden. Amazing how our perceptions change

 

Not all of our perceptions have changed.

 

The example you set forth above lends credence to those of us that believe that deal wasn't a fleecing, but rather a logical result of being at the right place, at the right time, with the right periphrial circumstances.

 

That is to say, the ARam deal didn't require a genius to construct. The Pirates were hamstrung by salary and inept organizational direction. Hendry needed a 3B and the Pirates were an obvious fit.

 

However, if you look closely at that deal and recall the circumstances surrounding, there exists room for criticism as Hendry allowed Pittsburgh to hold the Cubs hostage with the PTBNL (who ended up being Hill). Recall that Grudz got injured and was out for an extended period. The only logical replacement for the Cubs was Bobby Hill. Whether you are a Hill hater or not, he would have been nice to have on hand during Grudz's injury. However, Hendry's lack of foresight failed to recognize that giving the Pirates a number of days to choose between Hill and Beltran hurt the club due to its lack of middle infield options.

 

Hendry if not remotely the GM some hold him out to be.

 

if it was so easy, why didn't one of the allegedly smarter gm's pull it off then?

[Drew Doughty]

I'm curious when Hendry got his lobotomy. 3 years ago he was a genius when he fleeced the Pirates for A-Ram, Lofton and Simon. He got Lee for next to nothing. Everyone here thought he was the greatest thing to hit the front office in years.

 

Now he's suddenly less competent than Jim Bowden. Amazing how our perceptions change

 

Not all of our perceptions have changed.

 

The example you set forth above lends credence to those of us that believe that deal wasn't a fleecing, but rather a logical result of being at the right place, at the right time, with the right periphrial circumstances.

 

That is to say, the ARam deal didn't require a genius to construct. The Pirates were hamstrung by salary and inept organizational direction. Hendry needed a 3B and the Pirates were an obvious fit.

 

However, if you look closely at that deal and recall the circumstances surrounding, there exists room for criticism as Hendry allowed Pittsburgh to hold the Cubs hostage with the PTBNL (who ended up being Hill). Recall that Grudz got injured and was out for an extended period. The only logical replacement for the Cubs was Bobby Hill. Whether you are a Hill hater or not, he would have been nice to have on hand during Grudz's injury. However, Hendry's lack of foresight failed to recognize that giving the Pirates a number of days to choose between Hill and Beltran hurt the club due to its lack of middle infield options.

 

Hendry if not remotely the GM some hold him out to be.

 

if it was so easy, why didn't one of the allegedly smarter gm's pull it off then?

 

Timing and need, if I had to guess.

[Larry Horse]

I feel Hendry has been living off of the fumes from the Lee/Ramirez trades. He constructed the current mess.

 

And I'm still waiting for all the great FA's that will play for the Cubs because of Dusty.

 

Not including Jacque Jones.

[Master Shake]

At this point, I'd say that 'endry is slightly above average as GM, and that dusty is just god-awful.

 

 

Methinks Dusty is pulling more strings than Hendry.

[CubfaninCA]

how about the murton, barrett & walker fumes??

 

hendry didn't inherit one hitter who's around now. baker's a much bigger problem.

[Sosa21MVP]

Thanks for the response. I'm not saying Hendry is the village idiot, I just have seen him make some pretty questionable moves the past couple years. Then again, maybe those of you who say Dusty has some influence on that process are right. I mean we did hand Dusty a nice contract to come in and "save" the Cubs.

 

Dusty does do crazy things, I recall similar criticisms when he was managing the Giants.

 

I don't know to say anymore, somebody just needs to fix what is broken. It's amazing how quickly this team has spiraled down from 2003/04 to now.

 

Wood is coming back on Thursday, hopefully he can last this time.

[YearofDaCubs]

At this point, I'd say that 'endry is slightly above average as GM, and that dusty is just god-awful.

 

 

Methinks Dusty is pulling more strings than Hendry.

Hendry is a below average GM who doesn't have a clue how to put together a playoff team with a 100mil payroll.

[CubfaninCA]

Thanks for the response. I'm not saying Hendry is the village idiot, I just have seen him make some pretty questionable moves the past couple years. Then again, maybe those of you who say Dusty has some influence on that process are right. I mean we did hand Dusty a nice contract to come in and "save" the Cubs.

 

Dusty does do crazy things, I recall similar criticisms when he was managing the Giants.

 

I don't know to say anymore, somebody just needs to fix what is broken. It's amazing how quickly this team has spiraled down from 2003/04 to now.

 

Wood is coming back on Thursday, hopefully he can last this time.

 

what cf, rf and pitchers should have been brought in then?

 

they're fine @ 1b, 2b, ss, 3b, lf and catcher correct?

[CardsFanInChiTown]

I'm curious when Hendry got his lobotomy. 3 years ago he was a genius when he fleeced the Pirates for A-Ram, Lofton and Simon. He got Lee for next to nothing. Everyone here thought he was the greatest thing to hit the front office in years.

 

Now he's suddenly less competent than Jim Bowden. Amazing how our perceptions change

 

Not all of our perceptions have changed.

 

The example you set forth above lends credence to those of us that believe that deal wasn't a fleecing, but rather a logical result of being at the right place, at the right time, with the right periphrial circumstances.

 

That is to say, the ARam deal didn't require a genius to construct. The Pirates were hamstrung by salary and inept organizational direction. Hendry needed a 3B and the Pirates were an obvious fit.

 

However, if you look closely at that deal and recall the circumstances surrounding, there exists room for criticism as Hendry allowed Pittsburgh to hold the Cubs hostage with the PTBNL (who ended up being Hill). Recall that Grudz got injured and was out for an extended period. The only logical replacement for the Cubs was Bobby Hill. Whether you are a Hill hater or not, he would have been nice to have on hand during Grudz's injury. However, Hendry's lack of foresight failed to recognize that giving the Pirates a number of days to choose between Hill and Beltran hurt the club due to its lack of middle infield options.

 

Hendry if not remotely the GM some hold him out to be.

 

if it was so easy, why didn't one of the allegedly smarter gm's pull it off then?

 

Timing and need, if I had to guess.

 

OK, not trolling but...

 

At the time the Cubs were one of the only teams in baseball that could add significant amount payroll, ditto on the DLee trade.

 

That said, Hendry should be credited with the Nomar and Hawkins deals.

[JC]

I'm curious when Hendry got his lobotomy. 3 years ago he was a genius when he fleeced the Pirates for A-Ram, Lofton and Simon. He got Lee for next to nothing. Everyone here thought he was the greatest thing to hit the front office in years.

 

Now he's suddenly less competent than Jim Bowden. Amazing how our perceptions change

 

Not all of our perceptions have changed.

 

The example you set forth above lends credence to those of us that believe that deal wasn't a fleecing, but rather a logical result of being at the right place, at the right time, with the right periphrial circumstances.

 

That is to say, the ARam deal didn't require a genius to construct. The Pirates were hamstrung by salary and inept organizational direction. Hendry needed a 3B and the Pirates were an obvious fit.

 

However, if you look closely at that deal and recall the circumstances surrounding, there exists room for criticism as Hendry allowed Pittsburgh to hold the Cubs hostage with the PTBNL (who ended up being Hill). Recall that Grudz got injured and was out for an extended period. The only logical replacement for the Cubs was Bobby Hill. Whether you are a Hill hater or not, he would have been nice to have on hand during Grudz's injury. However, Hendry's lack of foresight failed to recognize that giving the Pirates a number of days to choose between Hill and Beltran hurt the club due to its lack of middle infield options.

 

Hendry if not remotely the GM some hold him out to be.

 

if it was so easy, why didn't one of the allegedly smarter gm's pull it off then?

 

Timing and need, if I had to guess.

 

OK, not trolling but...

 

At the time the Cubs were one of the only teams in baseball that could add significant amount payroll, ditto on the DLee trade.

 

That said, Hendry should be credited with the Nomar and Hawkins deals.

 

Obviously I don't think its trolling at all. There is a lot of context to those deals that gets ignored and/or forgotten.

 

As far as Nomar, I'm glad Hendry was trying to do something, but trading for an "impact player" whom Hendry knew would be subject to limited playing time at best doesn't get me all that excited. I credit Epstein with keeping that deal alive at the 11th hour.

 

As far as Hawkins goes, we paid a load of his salary to SF and haven't gotten a lot in return. I'm not saying it was a bad deal, because Hawkins has been largely worthless since the trade. I'm just saying it isn't that significant of a trade in light of the return to date. It favored the Cubs due to salary, but not by a degree that impresses me.

[RynoRules]

JC: Didn't want to requote all of the above, but it sounds to me like you just don't like JH and are spinning everything he does or has done into a negative. Your argument that timing and context allowed JH to pull these deals off is illogical, IMO, because it applies to every deal ever made. This is not to say that JH does not deserve a heaping share of criticism - he does. But he isn't as much of a fool as you make him out to be.

[JC]

JC: Didn't want to requote all of the above, but it sounds to me like you just don't like JH and are spinning everything he does or has done into a negative. Your argument that timing and context allowed JH to pull these deals off is illogical, IMO, because it applies to every deal ever made. This is not to say that JH does not deserve a heaping share of criticism - he does. But he isn't as much of a fool as you make him out to be.

 

And you'd be wrong. Look, I don't agree with his style or approach. I make no bones about that. But, I notice that you don't dispute the facts I set forth. Instead, you just want to assume I have a vendetta against him. Show me where I'm wrong and I'd be happy to discuss it. I just ask that the debate remain civil instead of foisting assumptions around. For instance, I didn't call him a fool. I gave him credit for the Hawkins deal, just not a huge amount. Show me results.

[YearofDaCubs]

JC: Didn't want to requote all of the above, but it sounds to me like you just don't like JH and are spinning everything he does or has done into a negative. Your argument that timing and context allowed JH to pull these deals off is illogical, IMO, because it applies to every deal ever made. This is not to say that JH does not deserve a heaping share of criticism - he does. But he isn't as much of a fool as you make him out to be.

He is a fool. 2003 was a long time ago and with an expanded payroll we still haven't been into the playoffs since then. He has done some good trades but overall most of his FA signings have been questionable. It seems like every year we go into the season with question marks and some of them aren't corrected the following year. This years debacle takes the cake and as fans I believe we deserve better than Baker and Hendry.