do the cardinals ever lose?

[mjohnson71]

I think he was expressing frustration that the team is not as good as many "experts" claim on paper, yet day in, and day out they go out, play good fundamental baseball, get on base, drive in runs, and hold their opponents when they need to.

Well if a team does that, it seems to me they probably start to look better on "paper" (whatever that means).

 

I think that means that the Cardinals don't have a lot of big name guys that jump out and grab you. I don't get that. We have 4 all-stars in our everyday lineup (whether deservedly so or not - Edmonds/Eckstein last year), the reigning Cy Young winner, the pitcher with the most wins in baseball since 2001, the two time executive or the year, the second or third winningest manager of all time, and a guy playing first base who has a chance if he stays healthy and stays consistent to break every major offensive record other than stolen bases and hits.

 

Maybe it is a case of them not getting ESPN love or people underrating them, but I don't see how they aren't good "on paper."

 

I love ESPNs East Coast bias. :roll: I don't know why they just don't start every SportsCenter with Yankees/Mets/Sox highlights.

[anemic offense]

I've said this a million times. They're not NEARLY as good as people tend to make them out to be on paper, yet they continue to execute and win games.

Hey, I've got some trivia for you (Trivia that does a pretty darn good job of indicating win/loss performance and expectation)!

 

Q: What team has the best run differential in the National League?

 

A: The St. Louis Cardinals.

 

 

 

Stop acting like it is smoke and mirrors.

 

???? Seriously, putting your Card bias aside, you can't POSSIBLY say ANYONE thought the likes of Miles, Taguchi, Rodriquez, Eckstein, Molina, et al could form a formidable enough of a lineup up to be this successful. You also can't tell me ANYONE thought a rotation consisting of (prior to last year) Suppan, Carpenter, Marquis and company would perform the way the have. Yet there they are, near the top of the Central divsion. Let's face it, I could send my grandma out there and she'd be an All-Star on this team.

 

Look, I'm not trying to diminish anything the Cardinals have accomplished. If anything, I am giving them a compliment for how they always seem to bring out the best in each and every one of their players (I'd settle for half on this team. However, one can't possibly refute the claim the roster is composed by a group (of primarily) overachievers. Then again it sure beats the hell ouf of a team of underachievers. I take my hat off (but don't tell me I can't puke in it :lol: )

[wolf stansson]

you can't POSSIBLY say ANYONE thought the likes of Miles, Taguchi, Rodriquez, Eckstein, Molina, et al could form a formidable enough of a lineup up to be this successful. You also can't tell me ANYONE thought a rotation consisting of (prior to last year) Suppan, Carpenter, Marquis and company would perform the way the have.

Obviously Walt Jocketty and the rest of the front office thought they would perform well.

[RynoRules]

you can't POSSIBLY say ANYONE thought the likes of Miles, Taguchi, Rodriquez, Eckstein, Molina, et al could form a formidable enough of a lineup up to be this successful. You also can't tell me ANYONE thought a rotation consisting of (prior to last year) Suppan, Carpenter, Marquis and company would perform the way the have.

Obviously Walt Jocketty and the rest of the front office thought they would perform well.

 

Query: Is it possible that the Cards have developed a system like the one the 90's Bulls had or the recent Pats did where you take unremarkable players (like Miles, Rodriguez, and Nunez of last year) and plug them into a methodology that allows them to be significant contributors?

[CubfaninCA]

They have the 2nd best ERA in all of baseball and find a way to maximize guys who would suckass on the Cubs (Eckstein, Rodriguez, Miles, Luna & Spezio).

 

Ridiculous.

[indifferent]

Pujols.

Ridiculous.

 

Fixed.

[Andy]

you can't POSSIBLY say ANYONE thought the likes of Miles, Taguchi, Rodriquez, Eckstein, Molina, et al could form a formidable enough of a lineup up to be this successful. You also can't tell me ANYONE thought a rotation consisting of (prior to last year) Suppan, Carpenter, Marquis and company would perform the way the have.

Obviously Walt Jocketty and the rest of the front office thought they would perform well.

 

Query: Is it possible that the Cards have developed a system like the one the 90's Bulls had or the recent Pats did where you take unremarkable players (like Miles, Rodriguez, and Nunez of last year) and plug them into a methodology that allows them to be significant contributors?

I don't buy this theory. Baseball is baseball, and the objective is always to get on base. There really aren't that many different ways to do it. In basketball and football, you can plug unremarkable players into "systems" to maximize their strengths, but there's really nothing similar in baseball. After all, only one person in the Cards' lineup can hit in front of Pujols.

[RynoRules]

you can't POSSIBLY say ANYONE thought the likes of Miles, Taguchi, Rodriquez, Eckstein, Molina, et al could form a formidable enough of a lineup up to be this successful. You also can't tell me ANYONE thought a rotation consisting of (prior to last year) Suppan, Carpenter, Marquis and company would perform the way the have.

Obviously Walt Jocketty and the rest of the front office thought they would perform well.

 

Query: Is it possible that the Cards have developed a system like the one the 90's Bulls had or the recent Pats did where you take unremarkable players (like Miles, Rodriguez, and Nunez of last year) and plug them into a methodology that allows them to be significant contributors?

I don't buy this theory. Baseball is baseball, and the objective is always to get on base. There really aren't that many different ways to do it. In basketball and football, you can plug unremarkable players into "systems" to maximize their strengths, but there's really nothing similar in baseball. After all, only one person in the Cards' lineup can hit in front of Pujols.

 

Its not my theory, its my query. I guess you do not think it is possible. I was wondering if anyone else thinks it is, and if so, what are the mechanics.

[wolf stansson]

I think in 2001-2004 it was a team thing. They had good players in their prime performing well offensively (Renteria, Rolen, Edmonds, Pujols, etc) and 2005-present you are seeing teams very similar to the Bonds teams from the Dusty era - IE Pujols is so good he makes the lineup good by just being in it. Rolen is still a good hitter, but the entire lineup with him is good enough to be a playoff contender; without him our lineup is not good.

 

So basically the regression of talent and the departure of good players is being buoyed by Pujols ridiculosity.

 

As for veteran role players excelling on the Cards, I don't really think it is anything more than them playing to their abilities. Eduardo Perez, Tony Womack, Fernando Vina, etc. Maybe it is the manager and his methods of when and why he plays them, maybe it is the atmosphere among the team, but I just don't know. I don't think their performances are as big of a disparity on the Cards than when they are on other teams as some of you think.

[K-Town]

I think in 2001-2004 it was a team thing. They had good players in their prime performing well offensively (Renteria, Rolen, Edmonds, Pujols, etc) and 2005-present you are seeing teams very similar to the Bonds teams from the Dusty era - IE Pujols is so good he makes the lineup good by just being in it. Rolen is still a good hitter, but the entire lineup with him is good enough to be a playoff contender; without him our lineup is not good.

 

So basically the regression of talent and the departure of good players is being buoyed by Pujols ridiculosity.

 

As for veteran role players excelling on the Cards, I don't really think it is anything more than them playing to their abilities. Eduardo Perez, Tony Womack, Fernando Vina, etc. Maybe it is the manager and his methods of when and why he plays them, maybe it is the atmosphere among the team, but I just don't know. I don't think their performances are as big of a disparity on the Cards than when they are on other teams as some of you think.

 

 

Pujols isn't the reason that the Cardinals' pitching staff has the best ERA in the NL right now, nor was he the reason that the Cardinals' pitching staff had the best ERA in the NL last year. Nor was he the reason that the Cardinals had the 2nd best ERA in 2004.

 

Pujols helps. Every team has a "superstar"........ Pujols is definitely the best of the bunch, and helps the Cardinals win some games (many games). But when you have the best pitching staff in the league, you're going to win alot of games with or without Albert Pujols.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Every team has a "superstar"

 

Tell that to the Royals, Devil Rays, and the Royals again.

[K-Town]

Every team has a "superstar"

 

Tell that to the Royals, Devil Rays, and the Royals again.

 

 

That's a fair enough point. "Every team" was definitely an exaggeration.

[wolf stansson]

D-Rays have some awfully good young guys - Crawford, Gomes, Cantu, Kazmir.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

D-Rays have some awfully good young guys - Crawford, Gomes, Cantu, Kazmir.

 

That's why they were only mentioned once. :wink:

[wolf stansson]

D-Rays have some awfully good young guys - Crawford, Gomes, Cantu, Kazmir.

 

That's why they were only mentioned once. :wink:

Yeah, none of them are stars but I covet Jonny Gomes and Scott Kazmir in particular.

[CubfaninCA]

put pierre on the cards, and he'd be hitting .350 now.

[wolf stansson]

This is a team who picked a Cy Young winner off the scrap heap, found a Hall of Famer in the 12th round, coaxed career years from the likes of Pinetar Kline, Pinetar Tavares, and Tony Womack, got great production from David Eckstein, have AAA players prosper every time they bring them up, and have had a healthy rotation the last couple of seasons. If that's not luck I don't know what is.

I know most of you won't care about this, but we had an incredibly informative chat with a sabermatrician who works for the Cardinals front office detailing how they evaluate FA's and I believe there is a section in there on Eckstein; specifically how he was undervalued.

 

http://gatewayredbirds.com/viewtopic.php?t=1119&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Transmogrified Tiger]

This is a team who picked a Cy Young winner off the scrap heap, found a Hall of Famer in the 12th round, coaxed career years from the likes of Pinetar Kline, Pinetar Tavares, and Tony Womack, got great production from David Eckstein, have AAA players prosper every time they bring them up, and have had a healthy rotation the last couple of seasons. If that's not luck I don't know what is.

I know most of you won't care about this, but we had an incredibly informative chat with a sabermatrician who works for the Cardinals front office detailing how they evaluate FA's and I believe there is a section in there on Eckstein; specifically how he was undervalued.

 

http://gatewayredbirds.com/viewtopic.php?t=1119&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

 

He talked about Eckstein being undervalued because he was an "OBP guy" and not a power hitter, but in '03 and '04 he wasn't much of either. Eckstein would've been a terrible pickup if he hadn't returned to '02 levels.

[SouthSideRyan]

Mitchel Lichtman posts semi-regularly at baseballthinkfactory. He's a pompous ass.

[wolf stansson]

Eckstein would've been a terrible pickup if he hadn't returned to '02 levels.

No doubt, but he didn't.