Getting sick of Juan Pierre.

[Geech]

if Pierre scores 119 runs and steals 60 bags, I don't give a rat's butt what his OPSLAKDKAHGO + / - VORP is.

 

You should. OPSLAKDKAHGO +/- VORP is one of the most exciting new stats in the game. You'll probably see it beign reported right next to batting average during TV broadcasts soon.

[srbin84]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

[Blueheart05]

Isn't 20 games a small sample size?

 

Yep, if you're trying to predict the rest of the season. But no matter how small the sample size, it doesn't change the fact that he's sucked this year.

 

 

Last season combined with the first 20 games does, however, provide a pretty significant sample size.

Shouldn't you worry more about the White Sox?

 

I don't think the Cubs face the White Sox for a couple months, right?

 

May 19th (my B-Day) is the first series at the Cell.

[goonys evil twin]

Isn't 20 games a small sample size?

 

Yep, if you're trying to predict the rest of the season. But no matter how small the sample size, it doesn't change the fact that he's sucked this year.

 

 

Last season combined with the first 20 games does, however, provide a pretty significant sample size.

Shouldn't you worry more about the White Sox?

 

I don't think the Cubs face the White Sox for a couple months, right?

 

May 19th (my B-Day) is the first series at the Cell.

 

Wow, that soon. I guess I should start to worry in the next couple weeks.

 

Thanks for the heads up trueblue.

[Blueheart05]

Isn't 20 games a small sample size?

 

Yep, if you're trying to predict the rest of the season. But no matter how small the sample size, it doesn't change the fact that he's sucked this year.

 

 

Last season combined with the first 20 games does, however, provide a pretty significant sample size.

Shouldn't you worry more about the White Sox?

 

I don't think the Cubs face the White Sox for a couple months, right?

 

May 19th (my B-Day) is the first series at the Cell.

 

Wow, that soon. I guess I should start to worry in the next couple weeks.

 

Thanks for the heads up blueheart.

 

Fixed

Edited April 26, 2006 by Blueheart05

[RyCubsFan]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

Oh I like JP as a person...he seems nice. But as a ballplayer?

 

Is it is .324 OBP last year that you like or his .354 sluggling?

Or do you prefer his miserable numbers this year?

 

Maybe you like his arm?

 

FYI, Pie's OBPis .391. His slugging is .520. Oh yeah, he also has 3 or 4 assists this year.

 

So we gave up 3 prospects for Pierre when we have better CF playing in Iowa.

[frostwyrm]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

[goonys evil twin]

Isn't 20 games a small sample size?

 

Yep, if you're trying to predict the rest of the season. But no matter how small the sample size, it doesn't change the fact that he's sucked this year.

 

 

Last season combined with the first 20 games does, however, provide a pretty significant sample size.

Shouldn't you worry more about the White Sox?

 

I don't think the Cubs face the White Sox for a couple months, right?

 

May 19th (my B-Day) is the first series at the Cell.

 

Wow, that soon. I guess I should start to worry in the next couple weeks.

 

Thanks for the heads up trueblue.

 

Almost. :cry:

 

TrueBlue is the one who gave me the heads up to start worrying about that series. You corrected my calender error. So, thanks to trueblue for the heads up, and thanks to blueheart for the clarification.

[srbin84]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

Oh I like JP as a person...he seems nice. But as a ballplayer?

 

Is it is .324 OBP last year that you like or his .354 sluggling?

Or do you prefer his miserable numbers this year?

 

Maybe you like his arm?

 

FYI, Pie's OBPis .391. His slugging is .911. Oh yeah, he also has 3 or 4 assists this year.

 

So we gave up 3 prospects for Pierre when we have better CF playing in Iowa.

 

First off, just because Marshall, Nolasco, etc. are doing alright now doesn't mean you can just call Pie up and he will be good. Odds are he'll struggle this year. I like Pierre's career average season numbers. He's established and young enough where I'll go by that above anything else.

[srbin84]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

 

I thought spring numbers didn't matter.

[frostwyrm]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

 

I thought spring numbers didn't matter.

Put those numbers in the larger context and you have a long uninterrupted string of crappiness.

[RyCubsFan]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

 

I thought spring numbers didn't matter.

 

What about last year? Do you just excuse that?

What about how lost he looks this year? Do you just write that off?

 

I really hope that JP can turn it around and get his OBP up above .350. I'm skeptical he can do it though. I have a lot more confidence in Pie's abilities than Juan Pierre's. Of course, I'm also more confident in Pie than Jacques Jones as well. So no matter which guy Pie replaces, we're still stuck with a bad outfielder.

[srbin84]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

 

I thought spring numbers didn't matter.

Put those numbers in the larger context and you have a long uninterrupted string of crappiness.

 

Those numbers are an exception, even though it is over the course of a year plus. He has way too much stock built up to just write him off as washed up at this point in his career. If this was Kenny Lofton, I would agree with you.

[srbin84]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

 

I thought spring numbers didn't matter.

 

What about last year? Do you just excuse that?

What about how lost he looks this year? Do you just write that off?

 

I really hope that JP can turn it around and get his OBP up above .350. I'm skeptical he can do it though. I have a lot more confidence in Pie's abilities than Juan Pierre's. Of course, I'm also more confident in Pie than Jacques Jones as well. So no matter which guy Pie replaces, we're still stuck with a bad outfielder.

 

Yeah, I write those off. It pales in comparison to all of his good years, and he too young to be washed up or declining.

[RyCubsFan]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

 

I thought spring numbers didn't matter.

 

What about last year? Do you just excuse that?

What about how lost he looks this year? Do you just write that off?

 

I really hope that JP can turn it around and get his OBP up above .350. I'm skeptical he can do it though. I have a lot more confidence in Pie's abilities than Juan Pierre's. Of course, I'm also more confident in Pie than Jacques Jones as well. So no matter which guy Pie replaces, we're still stuck with a bad outfielder.

 

Yeah, I write those off. It pales in comparison to all of his good years, and he too young to be washed up or declining.

 

 

All his good years?

 

He's never had an slugging percentage above .415. And that was in Colorado! His defense has always sucked. And 2 of the last 4 years, his OBP has been .332 or below. This track record inspires very little confidence in me.

[frostwyrm]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

 

I thought spring numbers didn't matter.

 

What about last year? Do you just excuse that?

What about how lost he looks this year? Do you just write that off?

 

I really hope that JP can turn it around and get his OBP up above .350. I'm skeptical he can do it though. I have a lot more confidence in Pie's abilities than Juan Pierre's. Of course, I'm also more confident in Pie than Jacques Jones as well. So no matter which guy Pie replaces, we're still stuck with a bad outfielder.

 

Yeah, I write those off. It pales in comparison to all of his good years, and he too young to be washed up or declining.

Actually no. His whole game falls to pieces if he loses any speed, so he is the type of player who may experience a rapid decline.

[srbin84]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

 

I thought spring numbers didn't matter.

 

What about last year? Do you just excuse that?

What about how lost he looks this year? Do you just write that off?

 

I really hope that JP can turn it around and get his OBP up above .350. I'm skeptical he can do it though. I have a lot more confidence in Pie's abilities than Juan Pierre's. Of course, I'm also more confident in Pie than Jacques Jones as well. So no matter which guy Pie replaces, we're still stuck with a bad outfielder.

 

Yeah, I write those off. It pales in comparison to all of his good years, and he too young to be washed up or declining.

Actually no. His whole game falls to pieces if he loses any speed, so he is the type of player who may experience a rapid decline.

 

His speed looks fine to me. Nobody has given an explanation why we should expect him to keep having a low average and low obp other than the fact he is in a prolonged stretch of it. Explain to me why he isn't going to play like he did for years before. And to RyCubsfan, I'm not looking for SLG from the leadoff man.

[CubinNY]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

 

I thought spring numbers didn't matter.

 

What about last year? Do you just excuse that?

What about how lost he looks this year? Do you just write that off?

 

I really hope that JP can turn it around and get his OBP up above .350. I'm skeptical he can do it though. I have a lot more confidence in Pie's abilities than Juan Pierre's. Of course, I'm also more confident in Pie than Jacques Jones as well. So no matter which guy Pie replaces, we're still stuck with a bad outfielder.

 

Yeah, I write those off. It pales in comparison to all of his good years, and he too young to be washed up or declining.

Actually no. His whole game falls to pieces if he loses any speed, so he is the type of player who may experience a rapid decline.

 

His speed looks fine to me. Nobody has given an explanation why we should expect him to keep having a low average and low obp other than the fact he is in a prolonged stretch of it. Explain to me why he isn't going to play like he did for years before. And to RyCubsfan, I'm not looking for SLG from the leadoff man.

 

I'll give you a quick one.

 

Grass.

 

The grass at Pro-Player is lightning fast. Not so much at Wrigley.

[srbin84]

Whatever, I still like Pierre and am glad he will be in center for the rest of they year. He's the best guy we have for center and leadoff, and he's off to a little bit of a slow start, so what. If the Cubs made decisions on such short amounts of games Marshall would have been sent down for pitching bad.

 

It's not a small amount of games. He was bad last year, bad this spring, and bad thru 20 games in the reg season. This is getting a little long to be a slump. It's starting to look like a decline.

 

And his defense sucks.

 

I thought spring numbers didn't matter.

 

What about last year? Do you just excuse that?

What about how lost he looks this year? Do you just write that off?

 

I really hope that JP can turn it around and get his OBP up above .350. I'm skeptical he can do it though. I have a lot more confidence in Pie's abilities than Juan Pierre's. Of course, I'm also more confident in Pie than Jacques Jones as well. So no matter which guy Pie replaces, we're still stuck with a bad outfielder.

 

Yeah, I write those off. It pales in comparison to all of his good years, and he too young to be washed up or declining.

Actually no. His whole game falls to pieces if he loses any speed, so he is the type of player who may experience a rapid decline.

 

His speed looks fine to me. Nobody has given an explanation why we should expect him to keep having a low average and low obp other than the fact he is in a prolonged stretch of it. Explain to me why he isn't going to play like he did for years before. And to RyCubsfan, I'm not looking for SLG from the leadoff man.

 

I'll give you a quick one.

 

Grass.

 

The grass at Pro-Player is lightning fast. Not so much at Wrigley.

 

Alright, well, at least that is something tangible. Maybe they should try cutting it shorter at Wrigley.

[RyCubsFan]

I'm not looking for SLG from the leadoff man.

 

Don't forget that the leadoff man typically only leads off once in a game. Once! I think you're severely overrating that one at bat in a ballgame. Inevitably, the person who bats first in the lineup will come to bat with men on base too. It'd be nice if he could drive him in.

 

So I like all the players to be balanced offensive weapons. If Pierre had some slugging in him, he could have tried it hit a home run in the 9th today when we were down by two and one man was on base. But this would be asking him the impossible. He has no power whatsoever.

 

On his OBP: his approach to the plate has generally been horrible this year. He's not walking. I see no reason that this will change. After all, it didn't change all last year. In 2 of the last 4 years, his OBP has been .332 or less.

[goonys evil twin]

Yeah, I write those off. It pales in comparison to all of his good years, and he too young to be washed up or declining.

 

He's not too young to be declining. I'm sure he's not totally washed up. He still has some skills. But he turns 29 this season. 26 is the typical peak year (coincides with Pierre's best years). Guys start differently, but 28/29 is not too early. And it's especially not too early for a one dimensional player like Pierre, who relies so heavily on his speed, and really doesn't have any other skills. Remember, his career #s are helped by time in Colorado, and even then he had a season with just a .332 OBP. He was lower than that last year. His 2005 season can't be ignored as an "off" year, as his OPS was only about .100 points below his previous year. His OPS+ was nearly in line with his career, which has been below average most of the time.

[srbin84]

I'm not looking for SLG from the leadoff man.

 

Don't forget that the leadoff man typically only leads off once in a game. Once! I think you're severely overrating that one at bat in a ballgame. Inevitably, the person who bats first in the lineup will come to bat with men on base too. It'd be nice if he could drive him in.

 

So I like all the players to be balanced offensive weapons. If Pierre had some slugging in him, he could have tried it hit a home run in the 9th today when we were down by two and one man was on base. But this would be asking him the impossible. He has no power whatsoever.

 

On his OBP: his approach to the plate has generally been horrible this year. He's not walking. I see no reason that this will change. After all, it didn't change all last year. In 2 of the last 4 years, his OBP has been .332 or less.

 

Fact is though, Pierre is doing the same thing he was when this argument was brought up before: scoring runs. He's on pace for 122. Last time the argument was made that it doesn't have much to do with him, but he's still doing it and without Lee now.

[RyCubsFan]

Fact is though, Pierre is doing the same thing he was when this argument was brought up before: scoring runs. He's on pace for 122. Last time the argument was made that it doesn't have much to do with him, but he's still doing it and without Lee now.

 

So think of how many runs that someone with a decent OBP playing in place of Pierre would score!

 

The number of runs he has scored is not convincing in the least. So he comes to bat with a man on base, hits into a force out, and ends of scoring. Should he be praised for scoring?

Edited April 26, 2006 by RyCubsFan

[sunnydoo]

Pierre's spot is +36 in projected runs (119 in 2006 vs. 83 in 2005) and he is on a pace to finish 2nd in the Modern Era for Cubs in SBs (Chance had 67 in 1903, Pierre is on a pace for 60).

 

Oh noes!

[goonys evil twin]

Alright, well, at least that is something tangible. Maybe they should try cutting it shorter at Wrigley.

 

That's no more tangible than the rest of the discussion.

 

Nobody has given an explanation why we should expect him to keep having a low average and low obp other than the fact he is in a prolonged stretch of it.

 

OPS+

2000-2005

55

89

65

98

107

84

 

He's averaged a 87 for his career. He peaked at 26, as expected. If he repeats his disappointing 2005, he'll be right in-line with his career.

 

I don't think he'll stay as terrible as he's been this year. But if he does improve, he'll have to hit much better than he did last year to be anything close to valuable. He could be less of a liability than Patterson was last year, but that's not enough to earn recognition as a valuable member of the team. Better than crap can still be bad.