Guess who is injured... (non-Cub)

[erik316wttn]

Ok, people, this needs to be said...

 

NOT EVERYONE WHO IS PERENNIALLY INJURED TOOK/ IS TAKING STEROIDS!! SOME GUYS ARE JUST MORE PRONE TO INJURY!! WHEN WILL THAT BE REALIZED??

[fiver]

Ok, people, this needs to be said...

 

NOT EVERYONE WHO IS PERENNIALLY INJURED TOOK/ IS TAKING STEROIDS!! SOME GUYS ARE JUST MORE PRONE TO INJURY!! WHEN WILL THAT BE REALIZED??

 

I believe everyone realizes this currently. However, many seem to believe it was a small percentage of players that "cheated" the system. We may find it wasn't a small percentage. Personally, I'm not pointing the finger at anyone...well sans Bonds, Conseco, Caminitti....those that have admitted to doing so. I'm also not defending anyone such as Nomar. We simply don't know.

[Monco]

Not everyone uses steroids to build mass.Lean muscle,fat burning etc.Look at runners,bicyclists.I was gonna say his bodies breaking down from taking care of Mia.

[erik316wttn]

Ok, people, this needs to be said...

 

NOT EVERYONE WHO IS PERENNIALLY INJURED TOOK/ IS TAKING STEROIDS!! SOME GUYS ARE JUST MORE PRONE TO INJURY!! WHEN WILL THAT BE REALIZED??

 

I believe everyone realizes this currently. However, many seem to believe it was a small percentage of players that "cheated" the system. We may find it wasn't a small percentage. Personally, I'm not pointing the finger at anyone...well sans Bonds, Conseco, Caminitti....those that have admitted to doing so. I'm also not defending anyone such as Nomar. We simply don't know.

 

You're right that we simply don't know. 100 percent right.

 

So then if we don't know, the allegations of people who have absolutely NO current link and NO evidence to ANY investigation are kind of pointless and stupid, aren't they?

[Monco]

Ok, people, this needs to be said...

 

NOT EVERYONE WHO IS PERENNIALLY INJURED TOOK/ IS TAKING STEROIDS!! SOME GUYS ARE JUST MORE PRONE TO INJURY!! WHEN WILL THAT BE REALIZED??

 

I believe everyone realizes this currently. However, many seem to believe it was a small percentage of players that "cheated" the system. We may find it wasn't a small percentage. Personally, I'm not pointing the finger at anyone...well sans Bonds, Conseco, Caminitti....those that have admitted to doing so. I'm also not defending anyone such as Nomar. We simply don't know.

 

You're right that we simply don't know. 100 percent right.

 

So then if we don't know, the allegations of people who have absolutely NO current link and NO evidence to ANY investigation are kind of pointless and stupid, aren't they?

 

We simply don't know but we all are entitled to our opinions.I believe the majority of players are using some type of performance enhancer.

[Shilzzz]

Steroids are hell on the body.

 

you should stop throwing around accusations when you have no idea what the truth is.

 

that's a pretty funny thing to say with your sig and all.

 

It's pretty obvious Bonds has used steroids. Not so with Nomar. The amount of circumstantial evidence is infinitely greater for Barroid, than for Nomar.

 

In fact I'd bet alot of money that Barroid has used and Nomar hasn't.

 

you should stop throwing around accusations when you don't know what the truth is. you haven't seen bonds shoot up the same way you haven't seem nomar. just because you think nomar is a likeable guy and barry seems like a donkey's rear doesn't make nomar less likely to have used, it just makes nomar a likeable guy and barry a donkey's rear. i understand that barry LOOKS more likely to have used, but would you have figured felix heredia or some of the small time guys busted through testing would have used? be fair. anyone could have been using. anyone.

 

i'm not making any accusations, just pointing out.

[Jehrico]

Steroids are hell on the body.

 

you should stop throwing around accusations when you have no idea what the truth is.

 

that's a pretty funny thing to say with your sig and all.

 

It's pretty obvious Bonds has used steroids. Not so with Nomar. The amount of circumstantial evidence is infinitely greater for Barroid, than for Nomar.

 

In fact I'd bet alot of money that Barroid has used and Nomar hasn't.

 

you should stop throwing around accusations when you don't know what the truth is. you haven't seen bonds shoot up the same way you haven't seem nomar. just because you think nomar is a likeable guy and barry seems like a donkey's rear doesn't make nomar less likely to have used, it just makes nomar a likeable guy and barry a donkey's rear. i understand that barry LOOKS more likely to have used, but would you have figured felix heredia or some of the small time guys busted through testing would have used? be fair. anyone could have been using. anyone.

 

i'm not making any accusations, just pointing out.

 

Barry has admitted using steroids...has everyone forgotten that? He only denies doing it knowingly.

[UBlink]

Barry has admitted using steroids...has everyone forgotten that? He only denies doing it knowingly.

 

Has anyone confirmed that on the record as opposed to unattributed leaks?

[RynoRules]

Nomar Garciaparra - 3B - Dodgers

 

 

Nomar Garciaparra isn't in the starting lineup for Monday's game because of a strained rib muscle.

Here we go again. With Hee-Seop Choi gone (and on the DL anyway), Olmedo Saenz is the backup at first base. Apr. 3 - 2:52 pm et

 

 

 

A-yep...

 

Not cool. I like Nomar, and wish he was less frail.

 

Seconded.

 

Third.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Nomar Garciaparra - 3B - Dodgers

 

 

Nomar Garciaparra isn't in the starting lineup for Monday's game because of a strained rib muscle.

Here we go again. With Hee-Seop Choi gone (and on the DL anyway), Olmedo Saenz is the backup at first base. Apr. 3 - 2:52 pm et

 

 

 

A-yep...

 

Not cool. I like Nomar, and wish he was less frail.

 

Seconded.

 

Third.

 

You can't triple stamp a double stamp, Lloyd...

 

Thirded.

[Bull]

Example pitcher:

 

Breaks in at age 19 and pitches 5 average seasons.

ERA+ in those 5 years

135 (only 5 games started)

81

107

92

104

102

 

and whips rainging from 1.28 - 1.62

 

then all of the sudden at age 25, he turns it on with ERA+

 

of 143

161

187

160

190

 

and whips of 0.85-1.03

 

Nagging injuries take him out of the game by age 30!

 

Sounds pretty suspicious, right. Because players that jump in performance like that and then suffer injury after injury are juiced, right?

 

I don't beleive Nomar was juiced any more than I believe Sandy Koufax was

[Jehrico]

Barry has admitted using steroids...has everyone forgotten that? He only denies doing it knowingly.

 

Has anyone confirmed that on the record as opposed to unattributed leaks?

 

If I recall correctly, wasn't it the Grand Jury testimony that got Conte sentenced to prison? Or was it the congressional testimony? It was one of the two.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Sounds pretty suspicious, right. Because players that jump in performance like that and then suffer injury after injury are juiced, right?

 

Actually that sounds about right. He hit his prime in his mid-to-late 20's and his body fell apart after 30.

[fiver]

Example pitcher:

 

Breaks in at age 19 and pitches 5 average seasons.

ERA+ in those 5 years

135 (only 5 games started)

81

107

92

104

102

 

and whips rainging from 1.28 - 1.62

 

then all of the sudden at age 25, he turns it on with ERA+

 

of 143

161

187

160

190

 

and whips of 0.85-1.03

 

Nagging injuries take him out of the game by age 30!

 

Sounds pretty suspicious, right. Because players that jump in performance like that and then suffer injury after injury are juiced, right?

 

I don't beleive Nomar was juiced any more than I believe Sandy Koufax was

 

 

Per my understanding, Koufax suffered from arthritis. He also threw a nasty breaking ball. It's probably not the best comparison.

[UBlink]

Barry has admitted using steroids...has everyone forgotten that? He only denies doing it knowingly.

 

Has anyone confirmed that on the record as opposed to unattributed leaks?

 

If I recall correctly, wasn't it the Grand Jury testimony that got Conte sentenced to prison? Or was it the congressional testimony? It was one of the two.

 

It would be trial jury testimony that is required to sentence someone to prison, not grand jury testimony. I'm not aware of Bonds testifying under oath in open court, and I believe the grand jury testimony is still sealed. Have I missed something?

[LoneStarCubFan]

Everybody's entitled t their opinion. As has been pointed out, building up muscle mass isn't the only thing steroids are used for, however, I do recall a story in SI on Nomar a few years ago talking about his "new offseason workout regimine" (sound familiar to anybody?) and how much he had bulked up that offseason.

 

It was that next season when he started to break down and spend a lot fo time on the DL.

[Bull]

Sounds pretty suspicious, right. Because players that jump in performance like that and then suffer injury after injury are juiced, right?

 

Actually that sounds about right. He hit his prime in his mid-to-late 20's and his body fell apart after 30.

 

So then why is Nomar falling apart at 31 a sign of steroids?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Sounds pretty suspicious, right. Because players that jump in performance like that and then suffer injury after injury are juiced, right?

 

Actually that sounds about right. He hit his prime in his mid-to-late 20's and his body fell apart after 30.

 

So then why is Nomar falling apart at 31 a sign of steroids?

 

I didn't say it was, but you used an extremely poor example as your point of reference.

[Jehrico]

Barry has admitted using steroids...has everyone forgotten that? He only denies doing it knowingly.

 

Has anyone confirmed that on the record as opposed to unattributed leaks?

 

If I recall correctly, wasn't it the Grand Jury testimony that got Conte sentenced to prison? Or was it the congressional testimony? It was one of the two.

 

It would be trial jury testimony that is required to sentence someone to prison, not grand jury testimony. I'm not aware of Bonds testifying under oath in open court, and I believe the grand jury testimony is still sealed. Have I missed something?

 

I don't know if it was the grand jury testimony, or the testimony that was given during the sentencing phase, but what I meant was it was either testiminoy given related to the Conte case, or the congressional hearings. The testimony might be sealed legally, but it was leaked, and Bonds has not refuted his alleged testimony. That may not be enough to convict him in a criminal court, but it's enough to erase any doubt in my mind that he did it, and that's without coupling it with all of the other signs of steroid abuse that he's exhibited.

[wolf stansson]

He and JD are going to be spending a lot quality time together this year.

 

your reasoning for thinking drew will be there is.....?

He spends more time on the bench then the manager.

[UBlink]

I don't know if it was the grand jury testimony, or the testimony that was given during the sentencing phase, but what I meant was it was either testiminoy given related to the Conte case, or the congressional hearings. The testimony might be sealed legally, but it was leaked, and Bonds has not refuted his alleged testimony. That may not be enough to convict him in a criminal court, but it's enough to erase any doubt in my mind that he did it, and that's without coupling it with all of the other signs of steroid abuse that he's exhibited.

 

My problem is that because we are looking at "leaked" testimony, we don't really know what was said. No one is willing to go on the record and say I heard Barry say that. You don't know if the leaks are complete, taken out of context or anything. My point is, anybody who leaks secret grand jury testimony is not the type of person I would trust. It's not just a matter of trusting the reporters, it's trusting their anonymous sources. And their sources are either lying (because what they are leaking isn't really in the grand jury testimony) or criminals (for leaking sealed testimony).

[Jehrico]

I don't know if it was the grand jury testimony, or the testimony that was given during the sentencing phase, but what I meant was it was either testiminoy given related to the Conte case, or the congressional hearings. The testimony might be sealed legally, but it was leaked, and Bonds has not refuted his alleged testimony. That may not be enough to convict him in a criminal court, but it's enough to erase any doubt in my mind that he did it, and that's without coupling it with all of the other signs of steroid abuse that he's exhibited.

 

My problem is that because we are looking at "leaked" testimony, we don't really know what was said. No one is willing to go on the record and say I heard Barry say that. You don't know if the leaks are complete, taken out of context or anything. My point is, anybody who leaks secret grand jury testimony is not the type of person I would trust. It's not just a matter of trusting the reporters, it's trusting their anonymous sources. And their sources are either lying (because what they are leaking isn't really in the grand jury testimony) or criminals (for leaking sealed testimony).

 

Barry's had over a year to refute that he admitted to using the "cream and the clear" during testimony, and has failed to do so. Couple that with him displaying virtually every known symptom of Roid abuse, there's little doubt in my mind. His lawyers tried to sue the writers of the "shadows" book because of illegally obtained grand jury testimony. Not for slander, not for printing lies, but for using illegally obtained testimony. Can he do any more to prove that the leaked testimony was in fact what he said other than coming forward and directly saying so in the press?

[UBlink]

I don't know if it was the grand jury testimony, or the testimony that was given during the sentencing phase, but what I meant was it was either testiminoy given related to the Conte case, or the congressional hearings. The testimony might be sealed legally, but it was leaked, and Bonds has not refuted his alleged testimony. That may not be enough to convict him in a criminal court, but it's enough to erase any doubt in my mind that he did it, and that's without coupling it with all of the other signs of steroid abuse that he's exhibited.

 

My problem is that because we are looking at "leaked" testimony, we don't really know what was said. No one is willing to go on the record and say I heard Barry say that. You don't know if the leaks are complete, taken out of context or anything. My point is, anybody who leaks secret grand jury testimony is not the type of person I would trust. It's not just a matter of trusting the reporters, it's trusting their anonymous sources. And their sources are either lying (because what they are leaking isn't really in the grand jury testimony) or criminals (for leaking sealed testimony).

 

Barry's had over a year to refute that he admitted to using the "cream and the clear" during testimony, and has failed to do so. Couple that with him displaying virtually every known symptom of Roid abuse, there's little doubt in my mind. His lawyers tried to sue the writers of the "shadows" book because of illegally obtained grand jury testimony. Not for slander, not for printing lies, but for using illegally obtained testimony. Can he do any more to prove that the leaked testimony was in fact what he said other than coming forward and directly saying so in the press?

 

It's a matter of principle to me. To attach any credibility to illegally obtained leaks of secret grand jury testimony is to encourage more leaks. And the higher the risk of leaks, the lower the probability that people testifying in a grand jury will speak openly and freely, not just about baseball and steroids (who cares), but about organized crime or political corruption, etc. I figure what little I can do to discredit leaks is supporting the grand jury process.

[neely crenshaw]

nomar fell apart right after his great years..in the middle of his prime! he had tremendous production especially power stats...not barry or arod but for a ss.

second do not guess that only guys that blow up are on juice. not every steroid makes you huge...just stronger. look at the guys who have been caught, none of them is massive just a regular size guy. think of olympic sprinters, they have juiced but they do not bulk up like barry or sammy.

 

we do not know who has done what...but if you have been around competitive sports (college and above) MOST people are using or at least have tried them. that is not some...i am telling you that most have. despite how much you like nomar, my educated guess is that he has used.

 

as far as barry goes..he admitted to using topical steroids which are not very effective. we all perceive him as a big steroid user but the truth is you do not know for sure. i mean, do you really think that rubbing steroid cream on your knees led him to hit 73 bombs? well, you do not know anything more than that just like we don't anything more about most other guys

you would be shocked if nomar used? i would be shocked if less than 50% of major leaguers used at some time! it's probably more like 75%.

[Jehrico]

I don't know if it was the grand jury testimony, or the testimony that was given during the sentencing phase, but what I meant was it was either testiminoy given related to the Conte case, or the congressional hearings. The testimony might be sealed legally, but it was leaked, and Bonds has not refuted his alleged testimony. That may not be enough to convict him in a criminal court, but it's enough to erase any doubt in my mind that he did it, and that's without coupling it with all of the other signs of steroid abuse that he's exhibited.

 

My problem is that because we are looking at "leaked" testimony, we don't really know what was said. No one is willing to go on the record and say I heard Barry say that. You don't know if the leaks are complete, taken out of context or anything. My point is, anybody who leaks secret grand jury testimony is not the type of person I would trust. It's not just a matter of trusting the reporters, it's trusting their anonymous sources. And their sources are either lying (because what they are leaking isn't really in the grand jury testimony) or criminals (for leaking sealed testimony).

 

Barry's had over a year to refute that he admitted to using the "cream and the clear" during testimony, and has failed to do so. Couple that with him displaying virtually every known symptom of Roid abuse, there's little doubt in my mind. His lawyers tried to sue the writers of the "shadows" book because of illegally obtained grand jury testimony. Not for slander, not for printing lies, but for using illegally obtained testimony. Can he do any more to prove that the leaked testimony was in fact what he said other than coming forward and directly saying so in the press?

 

It's a matter of principle to me. To attach any credibility to illegally obtained leaks of secret grand jury testimony is to encourage more leaks. And the higher the risk of leaks, the lower the probability that people testifying in a grand jury will speak openly and freely, not just about baseball and steroids (who cares), but about organized crime or political corruption, etc. I figure what little I can do to discredit leaks is supporting the grand jury process.

 

I see your point, and agree with your opinion in part. However, the testimony has been leaked, and Bonds has all but publicly admitted that the reported testimony was in fact his. You can't undo it. You don't have to like it, but you can't simply ignore it and treat it with the same credibility as a story off of the back page of the national enquirer because you don't like how the facts were obtained. Right or wrong, Principle or not, the information is out there. In a civil court case, you don't have to prove something beyond a shadow of a doubt, only that there is sufficient evidence to reasonably believe someone did something. In my book, the court of public opinion should fall along the same guidelines as civil litigation. Someone who thinks it's ridiculous to suggest Nomar is on roids because of his injury history but thinks it's okay to perpetuate the line that Bonds is a cheater isn't hypocritical, and shouldn't be treated as such like badger was on the front page (not by you though). It is way more than reasonable to believe the leaked testimony is accurate based on Bonds reactions to it.