Maddux=Best Ever?

[Caryatid]

Given the revelations regarding steroid use over the last ten years, and considering the rules of the game over that same time that seemingly gave hitters every possible advantage, does that take pitchers like Greg Maddux and Randy Johnson (who both are more than likely to have never taken 'roids themselves) and vault them to the top of the all time list?

 

I think if there's all this willingness to re-evaluate the record books as it relates to hitters (Bonds, McGwire, et.al.), shouldn't then we reconsider the accomplishments of the pitchers who remained off the juice and still totally dominated? In my head, that seems to make guys like Maddux all that much better and, dare I say, at least in the top three all time.

 

Rip away...

[CuseCubFan69]

Greg did have laser eye surgery, does that count?

[Soul]

Are you saying Roger Clemens was on the juice?

[Fred Hornkohl]

Greg did have laser eye surgery, does that count?

 

He had to use steroid eye drops for four months after the Lasik surgery !!!

[UK1679666180]

A good portion of Greg's career was before the offensive explosion of the late 90s. Every pitcher in the late 90s to the present has had the same disadvantages as Maddux.

 

ERA+ would do a pretty good job of how he has done vs. the rest of the league.

 

I haven't looked it up, but if he's in the top 3, you could make a good case.

[Jon]

Maddux led the NL in ERA+ in 1992 (166), 1993 (171), 1994 (273), 1995 (259), and 1998 (191). He led the majors in 1994, 1995, and 1998.

 

All-time, he's tied for 14th with Mordecai Brown and Cy Young at 138. Among active pitchers, he's 4th behind Pedro Martinez (166 and 1st all-time), Roger Clemens (143 and 8th), and Randy Johnson (142 and 10th).

[bukie]

I'd be more inclined to argue that Pedro Martinez might be the best pitcher ever. At least at his peak.

 

However, it's yet to be known how long he'll hold up.

[Rob]

Are you saying Roger Clemens was on the juice?

 

Well Jose Canseco did say he was talking about B12 shots.

 

I say we tar and feather him!!! :twisted:

[Jon]

It is also interesting to note that Maddux's ERA+ in 1994 of 273 was the largest in NL history outside of Tim Keefe's 294 in 1880 (0.86 ERA in 105 IP, just a small fraction of the average IP for starters. His career high was 619 IP in 1883.). Pedro's 285 in 2000 is the best in AL history.

[TB_11]

I'd be more inclined to argue that Pedro Martinez might be the best pitcher ever. At least at his peak.

 

However, it's yet to be known how long he'll hold up.

 

I'll second that. Maddux and his sustainable 220 IP+ per season vs Pedro's minor injury-plagued seasons though is a different debate.

[Soul]

I'd be more inclined to argue that Pedro Martinez might be the best pitcher ever. At least at his peak.

 

However, it's yet to be known how long he'll hold up.

 

I'll second that. Maddux and his sustainable 220 IP+ per season vs Pedro's minor injury-plagued seasons though is a different debate.

 

However, you KNOW Maddux never juiced up. There's just no way.

 

Pedro? Eh? Ya never know. 8)

 

Rocket is probably the best, most long-lasting, pitcher of our generation. Questions remain about the juice.

 

Therefore, Maddux is the best pitcher of our generation who absolutely, positively, no way no how, nada-----did not juice. :D

[OleMissCub]

If I could have any pitcher from the last 20 years at their peak physical condition i'm gonna go with Pedro. Look at this stats in 1999, he had a 2.07 ERA and recorded 13.2 K/9ip. That's just sick.

 

What separates him from Maddux in my opinion, given that they are both healthy, is his superior ability to K batters. The highest K/9ip for Maddux was in 95 when he had 7.7.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I would take Maddux's consistency over anyone in history. Sure Pedro had one completely dominant year, and many very very good years, but Greg Maddux has been Greg Maddux for 20 years. How many consecutive years of 15+ wins? How many gold gloves? Possibly the last 300 game winner ever. Pedro is a great pitcher, but I just can't put him ahead of what Greg Maddux has done. There are a few of the greats still pitching today (Johnson, Clemens, etc.). But from what I've seen, none of them has done with the class and humility of Greg Maddux. (And not just because he's a Cub, because I know a very large portion of his numbers come as a Brave)

[CubinNY]

This is such a hard question.

 

Do you mean for one game?

 

A season?

 

A career?

 

I don't think there is a "best" pitcher, put a select group of the best pitchers, and Maddux is certianly among them.

[KingKongvs.Godzilla]

Peak: Pedro

 

Career: Clemens

 

I've actually tried leaning towards Maddux several times, but for Pedro and Clemens to pitch in hitters parks in the AL for a good proportion of their career and do what they did....it's amazing.

 

If I could rank the pitchers of the 90's it would look like this:

 

1. Pedro

2. Clemens

3. Maddux

4. RJ

[OleMissCub]

Maddux also had the good fortune to play on some great teams throughout the 90's. Braves dominated the NL East in that time.