Surprise, surprise: "Everything Man" over Cedeno's

[SouthSideRyan]

I'm reading this thread in the Phoenix airport.

 

Time to relax: Ronny Cedeno will be the opening-day shortstop and will be given every opportunity to keep the job. Period. How many reporters did you see making a big deal of this? This is one of Dusty's rambles that morphed from a discussion about a "platoon" at second base. While there is legit concern given Dusty's history, it's no time to panic. Ronny will get his chance. He's got to relax and just play, which is what I think he'll do.

 

Heading home and then on to Cincy Sunday.

 

I did notice that most writers did not make a big deal of the quote.

 

But I've feared for quite some time that Ronny will be on an incredibly short leash. And while it's true that most teams operate this way, that doesn't make it a sound practice. So it doesn't take much to start worrying.

 

Ronny has to be given a chance to fail, and fail badly, then get the chance to play through it and rebound before being replaced by such dead weight as Neifi.

 

Neifi guarantees ONLY a .300 OBP?

 

That was ONE YEAR! Worst OBP in his career. He could have a .330-.340 year for all we know.

 

And that guy is FAR from dead weight, man.

 

Neifi's best non-Colorado OBP is 298.

 

Neifi's career OBP even with more than half his career with the Rockies is 301.

Edited March 31, 2006 by SouthSideRyan

[minnesotacubsfan]

(and only did through others posts), but it isnt written well...hence my questioning...

 

sorry for being the grammar police, I just wasnt sure what the poster was saying...

 

edit: for my own grammar :wall:

 

(sarcasm on)Dang, man...you gotta throw the grammar thing in my face? (sarcasm off)

 

 

I didn't think it was all that unclear. Then again, I wrote it.

 

I was simply stating that I didn't want to be perceived as a blind Billy Beane supporter, but the A's have done it, for the most part, the right way for ten years.

 

He's from Minnesota. Enough said. :wink:

 

HEY!!!! I'm from ILLINOIS!!! I just LIVE in MN!!!!!

[Ding Dong Johnson]

(and only did through others posts), but it isnt written well...hence my questioning...

 

sorry for being the grammar police, I just wasnt sure what the poster was saying...

 

edit: for my own grammar :wall:

 

(sarcasm on)Dang, man...you gotta throw the grammar thing in my face? (sarcasm off)

 

 

I didn't think it was all that unclear. Then again, I wrote it.

 

I was simply stating that I didn't want to be perceived as a blind Billy Beane supporter, but the A's have done it, for the most part, the right way for ten years.

 

He's from Minnesota. Enough said. :wink:

 

HEY!!!! I'm from ILLINOIS!!! I just LIVE in MN!!!!!

 

Hey, 6 of one, half dozen of the other...

[Rob]

The Braves have done it better than the A's and for longer. Two completely different methods of building the mouse trap. I don't know of any reason why they both can't work, but one thing is for sure, we don't have the organizational talent/philosophy that the Braves do (not referring to players, but that's true too).

 

We promote too fast and don't accurately assess young talent.

 

I just heard on XM that Cox is probably going to keep Brian Jordan on the roster over some younger guy that hit over 400 in st (forgot his name). Because he looks at his bench and doesn't see any veterans there. He must have a veteran fetish?

 

Everybody is going to have some level of faith in veterans over kids. Bobby Cox has enough history of putting faith in younger players to excuse him from occasionally going with a guy like Jordan. I wouldn't be all that interested in that kid's spring training numbers, as opposed to his career numbers as a pro. But for what it's worth, Jordan is having a great spring, so if you want to use that as your excuse, it doesn't make much sense. Plus, what is the kid's storyline? Is he a 22 year old solid prospect who can use some more seasoning playing everyday, as opposed to being on the bench. Would being a major league bench player slow his progress?

 

And I don't know many people who have advocated benches with zero veterans, so if most of the guys are younger and Brian is the sole aged one, that's not that big of a deal.

 

And let's not forget, Cox brought back a 42 year old Julio Franco in 2001, and got 5 years of pretty good production from him. So he's got as much of an eye for the older people as the younger ones.

[minnesotacubsfan]

(and only did through others posts), but it isnt written well...hence my questioning...

 

sorry for being the grammar police, I just wasnt sure what the poster was saying...

 

edit: for my own grammar :wall:

 

(sarcasm on)Dang, man...you gotta throw the grammar thing in my face? (sarcasm off)

 

 

I didn't think it was all that unclear. Then again, I wrote it.

 

I was simply stating that I didn't want to be perceived as a blind Billy Beane supporter, but the A's have done it, for the most part, the right way for ten years.

 

He's from Minnesota. Enough said. :wink:

 

HEY!!!! I'm from ILLINOIS!!! I just LIVE in MN!!!!!

 

Hey, 6 of one, half dozen of the other...

 

 

your Hawkeyes be damned this fall.......grrrrrrrr

[Treblehorns Army]

Neifi is ok as a sub, but I don't there is any other team in baseball that would be comfortable with him as a starter. Cedeno on the other hand, could either be really good or could be really bad. The choice comes down to whether or not you go with proven "averageness"(Neifi's career stats are .270-.301-.380). And actually, those stats aren't even average for a shortstop, they are just plain bad. The only conclusion that one can come to is that Neifi has compromising photos of Dusty Baker hidden away in a safe somewhere, because there isn't any rational reason why he should even be considered as a starter.

[louisvillecub]

Holy Freakin' Huge Avatar!

 

Jeez....

[Caryatid]

I'm reading this thread in the Phoenix airport.

 

Time to relax: Ronny Cedeno will be the opening-day shortstop and will be given every opportunity to keep the job. Period. How many reporters did you see making a big deal of this? This is one of Dusty's rambles that morphed from a discussion about a "platoon" at second base. While there is legit concern given Dusty's history, it's no time to panic. Ronny will get his chance. He's got to relax and just play, which is what I think he'll do.

 

Heading home and then on to Cincy Sunday.

 

I did notice that most writers did not make a big deal of the quote.

 

But I've feared for quite some time that Ronny will be on an incredibly short leash. And while it's true that most teams operate this way, that doesn't make it a sound practice. So it doesn't take much to start worrying.

 

Ronny has to be given a chance to fail, and fail badly, then get the chance to play through it and rebound before being replaced by such dead weight as Neifi.

 

Neifi guarantees ONLY a .300 OBP?

 

That was ONE YEAR! Worst OBP in his career. He could have a .330-.340 year for all we know.

 

And that guy is FAR from dead weight, man.

 

 

Neifi Perez has a career OBP of .301. Last year was one of his BEST years, OBP-wise. Enough said.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm reading this thread in the Phoenix airport.

 

Time to relax: Ronny Cedeno will be the opening-day shortstop and will be given every opportunity to keep the job. Period. How many reporters did you see making a big deal of this? This is one of Dusty's rambles that morphed from a discussion about a "platoon" at second base. While there is legit concern given Dusty's history, it's no time to panic. Ronny will get his chance. He's got to relax and just play, which is what I think he'll do.

 

Heading home and then on to Cincy Sunday.

 

I did notice that most writers did not make a big deal of the quote.

 

But I've feared for quite some time that Ronny will be on an incredibly short leash. And while it's true that most teams operate this way, that doesn't make it a sound practice. So it doesn't take much to start worrying.

 

Ronny has to be given a chance to fail, and fail badly, then get the chance to play through it and rebound before being replaced by such dead weight as Neifi.

 

Neifi guarantees ONLY a .300 OBP?

 

That was ONE YEAR! Worst OBP in his career. He could have a .330-.340 year for all we know.

 

And that guy is FAR from dead weight, man.

 

Neifi's best non-Colorado OBP is 298.

 

Neifi's career OBP even with more than half his career with the Rockies is 301.

 

Aside from the ridiculousness of saying Neifi could have a .330-.340 OBP, or that he is anything but dead weight, what in the world were you responding to in the posts you quoted that had anything to do with .300 OBP?

[anemic offense]

With Neifi you know what you're going to get - above average D and low OBP.

 

That's actually way better than Cedeno's performance right now, who is sucking it up defensively and killing himself at the plate.

 

If he wasn't playing such shoddy D, he'd get a longer leash. I can't really blame Dusty for this. Cedeno really didn't deserve the starting job at 2B/SS based on one good offensive year in the minors and the VWL plus 80 ML AB.

\

 

Bull. I'm sure my judgement is a little clouded because of my Cedeno bias, but Ronny has ABSOLUTELY deserved to be given the starting SS job. Although his overal MiLB performances weren't much to be desired, he came of age last year at a tough position, allthewhile being younger than his peers. Once he was called up, he continued to impress, even in spite of the fact Dusty wasted valuable ABs on Neifi when the season was already "over". He then continued his hot hitting into winer ball. What more do you want this kid to do? Come out of the box hitting 10 homers in spring?

 

I think a lot of his poor performance can be chalked up to pressure and being tired from playing baseball conistently over the last year. IMO, what it all comes down to is that Neifi is a mid-30s veteran who will NEVER get better. He will play great defense while being a black hole at the plate. Ronny on the otherhand, is 22 years old, has tons of potential, and has his best days ahead of him. If the Cubs/Dusty don't **** with him, he'll do just fine, but it doesn't help matters when Dusty doesn't keep his idiotic mouth shut. The last thing this team needs is for him to derail another promising career.

[anemic offense]

I'm reading this thread in the Phoenix airport.

 

Time to relax: Ronny Cedeno will be the opening-day shortstop and will be given every opportunity to keep the job. Period. How many reporters did you see making a big deal of this? This is one of Dusty's rambles that morphed from a discussion about a "platoon" at second base. While there is legit concern given Dusty's history, it's no time to panic. Ronny will get his chance. He's got to relax and just play, which is what I think he'll do.

 

Heading home and then on to Cincy Sunday.

 

I did notice that most writers did not make a big deal of the quote.

 

But I've feared for quite some time that Ronny will be on an incredibly short leash. And while it's true that most teams operate this way, that doesn't make it a sound practice. So it doesn't take much to start worrying.

 

Ronny has to be given a chance to fail, and fail badly, then get the chance to play through it and rebound before being replaced by such dead weight as Neifi.

 

Neifi guarantees ONLY a .300 OBP?

 

That was ONE YEAR! Worst OBP in his career. He could have a .330-.340 year for all we know.

 

And that guy is FAR from dead weight, man.

 

Neifi's best non-Colorado OBP is 298.

 

Neifi's career OBP even with more than half his career with the Rockies is 301.

 

Aside from the ridiculousness of saying Neifi could have a .330-.340 OBP, or that he is anything but dead weight, what in the world were you responding to in the posts you quoted that had anything to do with .300 OBP?

 

Suggesting Neifi could have a 330-340 OBP season may be the fastest and EASIEST way to discredit yourself on this board.

 

Either that or say Dusty knows how to handle a pitching staff.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

With Neifi you know what you're going to get - above average D and low OBP.

 

That's actually way better than Cedeno's performance right now, who is sucking it up defensively and killing himself at the plate.

 

If he wasn't playing such shoddy D, he'd get a longer leash. I can't really blame Dusty for this. Cedeno really didn't deserve the starting job at 2B/SS based on one good offensive year in the minors and the VWL plus 80 ML AB.

\

 

Bull. I'm sure my judgement is a little clouded because of my Cedeno bias, but Ronny has ABSOLUTELY deserved to be given the starting SS job. Although his overal MiLB performances weren't much to be desired, he came of age last year at a tough position, allthewhile being younger than his peers. Once he was called up, he continued to impress, even in spite of the fact Dusty wasted valuable ABs on Neifi when the season was already "over". He then continued his hot hitting into winer ball. What more do you want this kid to do? Come out of the box hitting 10 homers in spring?

 

I think a lot of his poor performance can be chalked up to pressure and being tired from playing baseball conistently over the last year. IMO, what it all comes down to is that Neifi is a mid-30s veteran who will NEVER get better. He will play great defense while being a black hole at the plate. Ronny on the otherhand, is 22 years old, has tons of potential, and has his best days ahead of him. If the Cubs/Dusty don't **** with him, he'll do just fine, but it doesn't help matters when Dusty doesn't keep his idiotic mouth shut. The last thing this team needs is for him to derail another promising career.

 

What promising career has Dusty derailed? Dubois? :roll:

[Fred Hornkohl]

With Neifi you know what you're going to get - above average D and low OBP.

 

That's actually way better than Cedeno's performance right now, who is sucking it up defensively and killing himself at the plate.

 

If he wasn't playing such shoddy D, he'd get a longer leash. I can't really blame Dusty for this. Cedeno really didn't deserve the starting job at 2B/SS based on one good offensive year in the minors and the VWL plus 80 ML AB.

\

 

Bull. I'm sure my judgement is a little clouded because of my Cedeno bias, but Ronny has ABSOLUTELY deserved to be given the starting SS job. Although his overal MiLB performances weren't much to be desired, he came of age last year at a tough position, allthewhile being younger than his peers. Once he was called up, he continued to impress, even in spite of the fact Dusty wasted valuable ABs on Neifi when the season was already "over". He then continued his hot hitting into winer ball. What more do you want this kid to do? Come out of the box hitting 10 homers in spring?

 

I think a lot of his poor performance can be chalked up to pressure and being tired from playing baseball conistently over the last year. IMO, what it all comes down to is that Neifi is a mid-30s veteran who will NEVER get better. He will play great defense while being a black hole at the plate. Ronny on the otherhand, is 22 years old, has tons of potential, and has his best days ahead of him. If the Cubs/Dusty don't **** with him, he'll do just fine, but it doesn't help matters when Dusty doesn't keep his idiotic mouth shut. The last thing this team needs is for him to derail another promising career.

 

What promising career has Dusty derailed? Dubois? :roll:

 

Holy Hyperbole, Batman !!

[frostwyrm]

What promising career has Dusty derailed? Dubois? :roll:

 

That's easy: Juan Cruz. He had good numbers as a starter, then Dusty put him in the bullpen where he sucked, and unfortunately the reliever label has stuck to him. Cruz' career could have taken a whole different trajectory if Dusty had displayed as much patience with him as a starter as was given to Shawn Estes.

[cjbucks]

The Braves have done it better than the A's and for longer. Two completely different methods of building the mouse trap. I don't know of any reason why they both can't work, but one thing is for sure, we don't have the organizational talent/philosophy that the Braves do (not referring to players, but that's true too).

 

We promote too fast and don't accurately assess young talent.

 

I just heard on XM that Cox is probably going to keep Brian Jordan on the roster over some younger guy that hit over 400 in st (forgot his name). Because he looks at his bench and doesn't see any veterans there. He must have a veteran fetish?

 

Or maybe he's going by Jordan's MLB track record and not some stats compiled over 20 st games.

 

Jordans ops over the last 2 years

 

2005 638

2006 633

[frostwyrm]

The Braves have done it better than the A's and for longer. Two completely different methods of building the mouse trap. I don't know of any reason why they both can't work, but one thing is for sure, we don't have the organizational talent/philosophy that the Braves do (not referring to players, but that's true too).

 

We promote too fast and don't accurately assess young talent.

 

I just heard on XM that Cox is probably going to keep Brian Jordan on the roster over some younger guy that hit over 400 in st (forgot his name). Because he looks at his bench and doesn't see any veterans there. He must have a veteran fetish?

 

Or maybe he's going by Jordan's MLB track record and not some stats compiled over 20 st games.

 

Jordans ops over the last 2 years

 

2005 638

2006 633

 

Last 3 years in MLB reg season vs. LHP: .297 .371 .498 .869

 

I'm guessing Cox wants a spot starter vs. LHP and an RH pinch hitter. Obviously he's not someone you want playing every day.

[cjbucks]

Obviously

[JakeSlater]

I'm reading this thread in the Phoenix airport.

 

Time to relax: Ronny Cedeno will be the opening-day shortstop and will be given every opportunity to keep the job. Period. How many reporters did you see making a big deal of this? This is one of Dusty's rambles that morphed from a discussion about a "platoon" at second base. While there is legit concern given Dusty's history, it's no time to panic. Ronny will get his chance. He's got to relax and just play, which is what I think he'll do.

 

Heading home and then on to Cincy Sunday.

 

I did notice that most writers did not make a big deal of the quote.

 

But I've feared for quite some time that Ronny will be on an incredibly short leash. And while it's true that most teams operate this way, that doesn't make it a sound practice. So it doesn't take much to start worrying.

 

Ronny has to be given a chance to fail, and fail badly, then get the chance to play through it and rebound before being replaced by such dead weight as Neifi.

 

Neifi guarantees ONLY a .300 OBP?

 

That was ONE YEAR! Worst OBP in his career. He could have a .330-.340 year for all we know.

 

And that guy is FAR from dead weight, man.

 

Neifi's best non-Colorado OBP is 298.

 

Neifi's career OBP even with more than half his career with the Rockies is 301.

 

You keep saying non-Colorado.

 

It still needs to be said that Colorado is STILL a major league club, even if it is barely.

 

We don't even know if Ronny's going to get replaced. All he has to do is PLAY WELL, PERIOD! Cedeno made his own bed there, and this is HIS fault! I won't blame Dusty an ounce if he HAS to replace him.

 

And the way you guys hate on Neifi like he hit .200 last year is ridiculous. He hit .274! And by the way, April and June were good months, not just June.

 

Some people here say Dusty has this fetish for old guys. I don't think that's anymore ridiculous than some of the people on message boards' fetish for young guys, especially ones that may not be able to play.

 

Murton has showed he can play, Marshall has showed he can play. They made it fair and square. Cedeno had this job locked up and killed his chance by getting more uptight than most message board fans after Dusty doesn't do what THEY want.

[Caryatid]

You keep saying non-Colorado.

 

It still needs to be said that Colorado is STILL a major league club, even if it is barely.

 

We don't even know if Ronny's going to get replaced. All he has to do is PLAY WELL, PERIOD! Cedeno made his own bed there, and this is HIS fault! I won't blame Dusty an ounce if he HAS to replace him.

 

And the way you guys hate on Neifi like he hit .200 last year is ridiculous. He hit .274! And by the way, April and June were good months, not just June.

 

Some people here say Dusty has this fetish for old guys. I don't think that's anymore ridiculous than some of the people on message boards' fetish for young guys, especially ones that may not be able to play.

 

Murton has showed he can play, Marshall has showed he can play. They made it fair and square. Cedeno had this job locked up and killed his chance by getting more uptight than most message board fans after Dusty doesn't do what THEY want.

 

Its not a fetish for young guys. Its a fetish for players with high ceilings who are more likely, over a 162 game season, to help a team win games. Cedeno has shown in MLB at bats that he can play. He has shown in 60 ABs in meaningless spring training that he has trouble in meaningless spring games.

 

If 60 bad ABs is all it takes to remove someone from the starting lineup, then Perez should have been gone in May last year.

 

And citing Perez's .274 is meaningless when his OBP is .298, and his career OBP-not Colorado, but OVERALL-is .301. So your suggestion about him somehow getting on base at a .330-.340 clip, when he has never had over a .320 OBP in a full season in his career is absolutely ridiculous.

[BigbadB]

You keep saying non-Colorado.

 

It still needs to be said that Colorado is STILL a major league club, even if it is barely.

 

Coors is a little league park in comparison to the rest of the league. Everyone plays well in Coors. Assuming that the way Neifi hit in Coors is the way he will always hit is like saying Jeromy Burnitz would repeat his:

 

.283/.356/.559 37 HR/110 RBI season.

 

Instead, he hit:

 

.258/.322/.435 24 HR/87 RBI season.

 

Diving in a little deeper:

 

Jeromy Burnitz at Coors in 2004:

 

.322/.386/.670 :shock:

 

Jeromy Burnitz on the road in 2004:

 

.244/.327/.448

 

At first look, it appears that Burnitz had a pretty good season in 2004 in overall production. But then reality sets in to the fact he played half his games in Coors.

 

The last numbers are more indicative to what we should have expected in a Cub uniform, and they are pretty close.

 

Because Coors artificially inflates a players stats if they play half their games there, it's not unusual for people to ignore those stats because they aren't going to be a true indicator of that players true ability.

 

No one will argue that Neifi is a slick fielder. But, that's all he is. Most non hitting slick fielders never see a major league baseball diamond and I'm not sure why Neifi has been an exception for as long as he has.

[sethuel1]

 

You keep saying non-Colorado.

 

It still needs to be said that Colorado is STILL a major league club, even if it is barely.

 

Huh?

[BigbadB]

Even worse than the .298 OBP Perez put up last year is the fact he hit into 22 double plays. You could tolerate that many GIDP's if the guy offered up something tangible with the bat, but Neifi does not.

 

18 walks in 572 at bats is just plain pathetic.

 

Neifi is not the only bad player receiving a contract in the major leagues, but he will be picked on more because he plays on our team and he's making way more money than he deserves. If it's not bad enough that we had to tolerate him as long as we have so far, he's basically a lock to be here again next year.

[Illini Iceman]

What promising career has Dusty derailed? Dubois? :roll:

 

That's easy: Juan Cruz. He had good numbers as a starter, then Dusty put him in the bullpen where he sucked, and unfortunately the reliever label has stuck to him. Cruz' career could have taken a whole different trajectory if Dusty had displayed as much patience with him as a starter as was given to Shawn Estes.

 

Ha! That's pretty funny. The two great organizations in ATL and OAK both gave up on Cruz because of the "reliever label Dusty stuck to him"? Maybe it is instead just because he was overated and not that good. Nah, blame it on Dusty.

[Caryatid]

What promising career has Dusty derailed? Dubois? :roll:

 

That's easy: Juan Cruz. He had good numbers as a starter, then Dusty put him in the bullpen where he sucked, and unfortunately the reliever label has stuck to him. Cruz' career could have taken a whole different trajectory if Dusty had displayed as much patience with him as a starter as was given to Shawn Estes.

 

Ha! That's pretty funny. The two great organizations in ATL and OAK both gave up on Cruz because of the "reliever label Dusty stuck to him"? Maybe it is instead just because he was overated and not that good. Nah, blame it on Dusty.

 

The whole question of damage done by a manager is really virtually impossible to prove. If a player is ruined by a manager and never recovers, people who defend the manager will say that "he just wasn't any good," when in fact it very well could have been that he was screwed up at a prime age and never recovered. Then again, he could have never been good in the first place. Either way, the actual damage done by a bad manager is impossible to really prove.

 

Its possible that Cruz, Choi, Hill, etc. were just bad. Its also possible that Baker's bad managing ruined them forever. But simply because the players have not been good since leaving the Cubs does not absolve Baker from responsibility, nor does it prove that they weren't any good in the first place. Its solely an unprovable opinion...either way.

[frostwyrm]

Even worse than the .298 OBP Perez put up last year is the fact he hit into 22 double plays. You could tolerate that many GIDP's if the guy offered up something tangible with the bat, but Neifi does not.

 

18 walks in 572 at bats is just plain pathetic.

 

Neifi is not the only bad player receiving a contract in the major leagues, but he will be picked on more because he plays on our team and he's making way more money than he deserves. If it's not bad enough that we had to tolerate him as long as we have so far, he's basically a lock to be here again next year.

 

Poor Neifi was cheated of many GIDPs because the leadoff hitters weren't getting on base in front of him. Granted, he made the most of the opportunities he did get, eliminating 22 baserunners who could have turned into RBIs for Lee.