Zambranos antics continue

[stitchface]

Hmmm, FSN Midwest, Cardinal station carrying Cardinal game, multiple cameras, instant replay.

 

And lets apply a little logic, if Edmonds is the one that STARTED the barking, is he going to just suddenly STOP? That seems unlikely, so it is POSSIBLE but not probable.

 

he did keep on barking from the dugout. funny, my tape shows differently than yours.

[fulldeck]

Hmmm, FSN Midwest, Cardinal station carrying Cardinal game, multiple cameras, instant replay.

 

And lets apply a little logic, if Edmonds is the one that STARTED the barking, is he going to just suddenly STOP? That seems unlikely, so it is POSSIBLE but not probable.

 

he did keep on barking from the dugout. funny, my tape shows differently than yours.

 

I have the Cubs feed and even the Barrett said he didn't know who was doing the barking.

[Roast]

This crap is ridiculous. Z is an emotional guy. He wants to win. Bad. We can sit here and say that he is showing up his teammates. Whatever. Is it possible that he's kicking the dirt and swearing because he saw a hit/error and thought it might impair his chances of winning. Of course not. He was obviously trying to show up his team mates!

 

...Right.

 

I'm pretty sure everyone can see Z has an insane desire to win. That 'everyone' includes his teammates. Its so hypocritical that people call carlos immature for this, but no one remembers, or talks about how immature this was:

 

http://www.looptvandfilm.com/blog/clemens2.jpg

 

Please. Throwing inside, throwing tight, hitting batters (with BASEBALLS, on the body) is part of the game. Wanting to win is part of the game. Until Z does something outside of that, leave him alone.

[Holy Cow]

People just look at his win total from last year (14) and his age (24) and think that he's immature. I guarantee that if Zambrano finishes top 5 in the Cy Young this year, nobody will say anything.

 

 

And I hope he drills Edmonds again. He got panned for it but I thought it was appropriate and should win his teammates affection.

 

I remember watching that game. IIRC, Edmonds got plunked once, then hit a HR and Z was yelling at him to go around the bases quicker and then didn't Edmonds get drilled a second time?

 

The thing that bothered me was, Zambrano is young. No matter how good your stuff is you have to earn respect to be able to yell at a veteran for trotting around the bases during a homerun.

 

Usually when someone hits a HR off of Clemens he will make sure they run or else he's likely to throw at them. I don't have much of a problem with this because Clemens has been in the league and has been a top 10 pitcher basically his whole career.

 

I'm not the biggest Cubs fan, just come here to post since it seems much more civil than other Cub fans I've been around. But I do think Zambrano is a terrific pitcher, his emotions may hurt him once in a while, but I think he's just super competitive which is something you want in a pitcher.

 

You saying that reminds me of the time Prior accidentally hit Bonds, and then motioned him on when Barry tried to stare him down. I like both examples of our young guys assuming veteran status because it would be impossible for our youth-led team to win the world series without doing so.

 

And, soccer, I also can't wait to see what all the doubters will say about Z after this season. Will he finally earn the Clemens treatment?

[CardsFanInChiTown]

IIRC Edmonds getting plucked the 2nd time had more to do with Rolen's 3 run shot.

[Proven Veteran]

Proof positive that Latin players are more emotional. Would Tomo Ohka ever do such a thing? Nope, he'd get back at Cristian Guzman by asking him to solve a tough differentiation problem.

 

You bring up a good point. I don't think Zambrano's lack of emotional control is a result of being of Latin descent, but probably does have something to do with being raised in Latin America. The environmental differences between there and the United States are great, and I think had Z grown up here as an American, would have much more control over his emotions, be more analytical on the mound, and possess much more poise and composure.

 

Joe?

 

Lol.

 

FJM 4 lyfe, yo.

[bc2k]

This crap is ridiculous. Z is an emotional guy. He wants to win. Bad. We can sit here and say that he is showing up his teammates. Whatever. Is it possible that he's kicking the dirt and swearing because he saw a hit/error and thought it might impair his chances of winning. Of course not. He was obviously trying to show up his team mates!

 

...Right.

 

I'm pretty sure everyone can see Z has an insane desire to win. That 'everyone' includes his teammates. Its so hypocritical that people call carlos immature for this, but no one remembers, or talks about how immature this was:

 

http://www.looptvandfilm.com/blog/clemens2.jpg

 

Please. Throwing inside, throwing tight, hitting batters (with BASEBALLS, on the body) is part of the game. Wanting to win is part of the game. Until Z does something outside of that, leave him alone.

 

As has been said already, there's a difference between Zambrano showing up teammates in a Spring Training game (and having done so repeatedly during regular seasons' past) and Clemens throwing a broken bat that doesn't even hit Piazza during the World Series.

 

It's clear that Clemens's actions aren't emotional rages, but cerebral intimidation that can cause better results for him and his team while Z is responsive to and controlled by his emotions which can hurt his team.

[srbin84]

This crap is ridiculous. Z is an emotional guy. He wants to win. Bad. We can sit here and say that he is showing up his teammates. Whatever. Is it possible that he's kicking the dirt and swearing because he saw a hit/error and thought it might impair his chances of winning. Of course not. He was obviously trying to show up his team mates!

 

...Right.

 

I'm pretty sure everyone can see Z has an insane desire to win. That 'everyone' includes his teammates. Its so hypocritical that people call carlos immature for this, but no one remembers, or talks about how immature this was:

 

http://www.looptvandfilm.com/blog/clemens2.jpg

 

Please. Throwing inside, throwing tight, hitting batters (with BASEBALLS, on the body) is part of the game. Wanting to win is part of the game. Until Z does something outside of that, leave him alone.

 

I mentioned that incident earlier in the thread. Most ball-less thing I have ever seen a player do on the field.

[Outshined_One]

IIRC Edmonds getting plucked the 2nd time had more to do with Rolen's 3 run shot.

 

Yep. Z was out of gas at that point and the wind had gone out of the Cubs' sails. Z knew he was done for that night and Dusty for some really stupid reason did not have Remlinger warmed up at that point. So, he took a rather smart route in plunking Edmonds and getting ejected, since Remmy got all the time he needed to warm up.

 

As has been said already, there's a difference between Zambrano showing up teammates in a Spring Training game (and having done so repeatedly during regular seasons' past) and Clemens throwing a broken bat that doesn't even hit Piazza during the World Series.

 

It's clear that Clemens's actions aren't emotional rages, but cerebral intimidation that can cause better results for him and his team while Z is responsive to and controlled by his emotions which can hurt his team.

 

Please tell me you're being sarcastic. You're telling me Zambrano doesn't fire up his teammates with his emotions? That he doesn't intimidate the opposition by snapping his glove, swearing like a madman, and throwing inside? Heck, that man running the basepaths might be the single most frightening thing anyone on the opposition will likely see on that day.

 

Plus, Roger Clemens never exactly struck me as the cerebral type. The man threw at his own kid for cripe's sake.

[Mark Priors Calves]

Proof positive that Latin players are more emotional. Would Tomo Ohka ever do such a thing? Nope, he'd get back at Cristian Guzman by asking him to solve a tough differentiation problem.

 

You bring up a good point. I don't think Zambrano's lack of emotional control is a result of being of Latin descent, but probably does have something to do with being raised in Latin America. The environmental differences between there and the United States are great, and I think had Z grown up here as an American, would have much more control over his emotions, be more analytical on the mound, and possess much more poise and composure.

 

Joe?

 

Lol.

 

FJM 4 lyfe, yo.

 

I'm down yo.

[Soul]

IIRC Edmonds getting plucked the 2nd time had more to do with Rolen's 3 run shot.

 

Yep. Z was out of gas at that point and the wind had gone out of the Cubs' sails. Z knew he was done for that night and Dusty for some really stupid reason did not have Remlinger warmed up at that point. So, he took a rather smart route in plunking Edmonds and getting ejected, since Remmy got all the time he needed to warm up.

 

As has been said already, there's a difference between Zambrano showing up teammates in a Spring Training game (and having done so repeatedly during regular seasons' past) and Clemens throwing a broken bat that doesn't even hit Piazza during the World Series.

 

It's clear that Clemens's actions aren't emotional rages, but cerebral intimidation that can cause better results for him and his team while Z is responsive to and controlled by his emotions which can hurt his team.

 

Please tell me you're being sarcastic. You're telling me Zambrano doesn't fire up his teammates with his emotions? That he doesn't intimidate the opposition by snapping his glove, swearing like a madman, and throwing inside? Heck, that man running the basepaths might be the single most frightening thing anyone on the opposition will likely see on that day.

 

Plus, Roger Clemens never exactly struck me as the cerebral type. The man threw at his own kid for cripe's sake.

 

\:D/ I had a neighbor who was like that. He used to just dominate his little kid in 1-on-1. Kid would be crying, he was like "oh grow up you baby."

 

I used to laugh like the devil. Clemens is just like that. But I'll tell you what he never did. He never got on a teammate while on the field for blowing a play and making it harder to get out of an inning. That's where it crosses the line.

[bc2k]

IIRC Edmonds getting plucked the 2nd time had more to do with Rolen's 3 run shot.

 

Yep. Z was out of gas at that point and the wind had gone out of the Cubs' sails. Z knew he was done for that night and Dusty for some really stupid reason did not have Remlinger warmed up at that point. So, he took a rather smart route in plunking Edmonds and getting ejected, since Remmy got all the time he needed to warm up.

 

As has been said already, there's a difference between Zambrano showing up teammates in a Spring Training game (and having done so repeatedly during regular seasons' past) and Clemens throwing a broken bat that doesn't even hit Piazza during the World Series.

 

It's clear that Clemens's actions aren't emotional rages, but cerebral intimidation that can cause better results for him and his team while Z is responsive to and controlled by his emotions which can hurt his team.

 

Please tell me you're being sarcastic. You're telling me Zambrano doesn't fire up his teammates with his emotions? That he doesn't intimidate the opposition by snapping his glove, swearing like a madman, and throwing inside? Heck, that man running the basepaths might be the single most frightening thing anyone on the opposition will likely see on that day.

 

Plus, Roger Clemens never exactly struck me as the cerebral type. The man threw at his own kid for cripe's sake.

 

You bring up a good point about Z's emotional outbursts inspiring and motivating better play from his teammates, and I encourage him to pat his teammates on the back and high five them in the dugout after they've made a steller defensive play.

 

My point is that there are many times Z's emotional outbursts aren't beneficial to the team. I made this point earlier in the thread:

 

Running off the mound pumping your fist after striking out Pujols to end the inning of a close game is different than throwing a witch fit because your teammates made a quasi-physical error.

 

Showing up teammates can hurt the team.

 

Showing up umpires can hurt the team.

 

Z letting his emotions dictate his future performance can hurt the team.

 

Grow the heck up, Z.

 

Surely you can acknowledge the difference between celebrating your teammates' successes and verbally assaulting and mocking an umpire, right?

[Roast]

 

As has been said already, there's a difference between Zambrano showing up teammates in a Spring Training game (and having done so repeatedly during regular seasons' past) and Clemens throwing a broken bat that doesn't even hit Piazza during the World Series.

 

It's clear that Clemens's actions aren't emotional rages, but cerebral intimidation that can cause better results for him and his team while Z is responsive to and controlled by his emotions which can hurt his team.

 

Oh for the love of all that is good please tell me that is a joke. Honestly, are you SERIOUSLY telling me that because it didnt hit him, it was okay. Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that you believe that was just a little intimidation, and it can cause better results for the team? That is possibly the most...unnerving...thing i have ever heard.

[Roast]

 

Heck, that man running the basepaths might be the single most frightening thing anyone on the opposition will likely see on that day.

 

 

Yah, tell me this wont scare you. Go ahead...tell me.

 

http://www.jonmdavis.net/zambrano30sig.jpg

 

Thats right. you cant.

[bc2k]

 

As has been said already, there's a difference between Zambrano showing up teammates in a Spring Training game (and having done so repeatedly during regular seasons' past) and Clemens throwing a broken bat that doesn't even hit Piazza during the World Series.

 

It's clear that Clemens's actions aren't emotional rages, but cerebral intimidation that can cause better results for him and his team while Z is responsive to and controlled by his emotions which can hurt his team.

 

Oh for the love of all that is good please tell me that is a joke. Honestly, are you SERIOUSLY telling me that because it didnt hit him, it was okay. Are you SERIOUSLY telling me that you believe that was just a little intimidation, and it can cause better results for the team? That is possibly the most...unnerving...thing i have ever heard.

 

Relax, friend, don't go all Zambrano on me. :)

 

To answer your question, no, I don't think it was acceptable for Clemens to throw a broken bat near Piazza. But you haven't responded to the rest of my post that you quoted.

 

Zambrano is flipping out during Spring Training games, and has regularly thrown public rages at umpires and teammates over his short career; Clemens had one emotional outburst over a much longer career and it was directed at an opponent during a World Series game. The comparison is flawed.

[ltb]

Clemens had one emotional outburst over a much longer career

 

lololololololol

 

POTD

[bc2k]

 

Heck, that man running the basepaths might be the single most frightening thing anyone on the opposition will likely see on that day.

 

 

Yah, tell me this wont scare you. Go ahead...tell me.

 

http://www.jonmdavis.net/zambrano30sig.jpg

 

Thats right. you cant.

 

Z's intimidating baserunning has nothing to do with his inability to control his emotions.

[Outshined_One]

Surely you can acknowledge the difference between celebrating your teammates' successes and verbally assaulting and mocking an umpire, right?

 

I'm going to ask this again:

 

How many games did Z get ejected from last year because of his antics? Was it just on opening day in Arizona?

 

I can also think of a number of instances when Zambrano came back with a huge slap on the butt or a high five for a teammate that made a stellar defensive play. The man gives as much as he takes; that's a certainty.

[Brian]

Z got thrown out of opening day, after he was removed by Dusty, for telling the umpire he needed glasses, and he was thrown out of a game in late April against the Reds for throwing behind a guy (he didn't have good stuff at all that night, and I believe adam dunn had just taken him deep). So twice in the opening month and never again after that.

[Outshined_One]

Z got thrown out of opening day, after he was removed by Dusty, for telling the umpire he needed glasses, and he was thrown out of a game in late April against the Reds for throwing behind a guy (he didn't have good stuff at all that night, and I believe adam dunn had just taken him deep). So twice in the opening month and never again after that.

 

Thank you. :D

 

One of the things that stuck out about last season was how Zambrano progressed emotionally over the course of the season. Instead of screaming curse words at the ump or opposing team, he'd turn around and do it into his glove (much like Maddux does).

 

There was one particular instance where Zambrano was absolutely spectacular on the mound with CB Bucknor behind the plate and squeezing him (I want to say he helped cost Z a no-no), but Zambrano managed to keep his cool on the mound and didn't explode at CB. When Dusty came out to remove Zambrano, CB complimented Z by telling Dusty that he threw one heck of a game out there.

 

We also have to remember that Zambrano is still only 24 years old (!!!). Most pitchers at his age are either in the high minors or just getting called up. While Zambrano is almost a veteran in terms of his major league experience, he still is a young man who needs to work on his emotional maturity. I think he has progressed by leaps and bounds since The Edmonds Incident two years ago.

 

He still has some rough edges to work out, but I don't think he's any worse than some of the players who constantly bark at the umpires, show up other teams, and feud with players on other teams.

[bc2k]

Surely you can acknowledge the difference between celebrating your teammates' successes and verbally assaulting and mocking an umpire, right?

 

I'm going to ask this again:

 

How many games did Z get ejected from last year because of his antics? Was it just on opening day in Arizona?

 

You're assuming that the only way to judge how Z is hurting his team is by how often his emotional tantrums cause his ejection from games.

 

Even if he's not ejected, Z's failure to control his emotions can hurt the team: not getting close calls from the umps; potential short- and long term relationship problems with teammates; and by overthrowing or losing focus.

 

I can also think of a number of instances when Zambrano came back with a huge slap on the butt or a high five for a teammate that made a stellar defensive play. The man gives as much as he takes; that's a certainty.

 

Correct, I have already made mention of this. I praised Z by saying his encouragement of his teammates is good for the team. The point I made was that much of Z's outward emotion is not good because many times his inability to control his negative emotions hurts himself and his team.

[YearofDaCubs]

I definitely don't condone Z showing up his teammates but man I do find most of his antics funny.

[Outshined_One]

You're assuming that the only way to judge how Z is hurting his team is by how often his emotional tantrums cause his ejection from games.

 

Even if he's not ejected, Z's failure to control his emotions can hurt the team: not getting close calls from the umps; potential short- and long term relationship problems with teammates; and by overthrowing or losing focus.

 

I understand that this thread is dedicated to Zambrano, but come on, you're making it seem like he has a unique problem.

 

You've discounted a number of Roger Clemens' antics on the field by saying he only had one emotional outburst during his career when he did something a number of times worse than anything Zambrano has done in a much more pressure-filled situation that could have had long-term ramifications if it weren't for the fact that the Mets sucked a little less than the rest of the NL that year. Heck, the only thing Raj ever got for that was Shawn Estes' hilarious retaliation that next season when Estes tried throwing behind him and failed miserably. As most Red Sox fans will tell you, Roger had his share of outbursts on the mound during his time with them.

 

When Zambrano's antics get out of control, he'll go and do something out there like call out the umpire or throw at an opposing hitter. That will get a player ejected or at the very least warned. I cannot recall many instances of that happening last season. As it was mentioned above, he was ejected only twice in April; that was it. He didn't antagonize the umpires to the point of losing it after that.

 

You're unfairly singling out Zambrano here. A number of pitchers throw tantrums on the mound. In the dugout and in the clubhouse, pitchers and position players will call each other out and get into arguments and, on occasion, fights. Grudges can be held. Things can get completely out of hand and spill into the media. At the very least, Zambrano is willing to man up and apologize for his actions. He also is well-liked in the clubhouse, from all accounts. Those are things I haven't seen or heard Roger Clemens do very much of in his long career.

 

You're treating Zambrano like he's a cancer on this team because he does nothing but complain and that his emotions are out of control when things aren't going his way. Maybe you're not saying it, but you sure as heck are implying it.

 

Guess what? It happens to most pitchers in baseball. Guys who were even more animated and intense than Zambrano managed to have long and productive careers.

 

Zambrano has managed to grow up since he broke into baseball and also has grown up a ton in the past two years alone. The fact that he was a legitimate Cy Young candidate in 2004 and that he managed to improve on a number of statistics in 2005 (IP, K/BB, K/9, BAA) along with reducing his number of hit batters from 20 in 2004 to 8 in 2005 should say quite a bit about how together he is.

 

If you can't see that, well, I don't know what else is left to say.

[Neuby]

If Z is showing up his teamates thats pathetic. Zambrano is still a machine and a great pitcher .Showing up an umpire or opposing player is one thing but when your doing it to your teammates there's still a lot of work to done and at 24 he's got plenty of time.

[Catman61]

Hmmm, FSN Midwest, Cardinal station carrying Cardinal game, multiple cameras, instant replay.

 

And lets apply a little logic, if Edmonds is the one that STARTED the barking, is he going to just suddenly STOP? That seems unlikely, so it is POSSIBLE but not probable.

 

he did keep on barking from the dugout. funny, my tape shows differently than yours.

 

You have a little problem stitch, in Sun nite's post you claim

What you left out was that Edmonds posed and then started the talk as he rounded the bases

NOW you claim you have the tape and the Edmonds was barking from the dugout. Now lets get back to my

logic question, if Edmonds was the one who STARTED the barking, then wouldn't he continue barking all the way around the bases? and wouldn't he be barking back at Z as he rounded the bases? So wouldn't the tape that you say shows Edmonds barking from the dugout also show him barking around the basepaths, yet you don't claim that. So which is more likely, a camera focusing on Edmonds trotting around the basepaths when he supposedly started the barking OR a camera focusing on Edmonds in the dugout afterwards as the game on the field is continuing and a live AB is going on?