Sammy Far Superior to Big Yak

[SouthSideRyan]

 

You're funny. Show me a list of players to put up Sosa's lines. On that list, those stats can't come from 1998-2001.

 

So nothing new can ever be done in baseball again. Ignoring the changing parks and nature of the ball, if something's done that's never been done before it must be due to cheating. Everyone loves to just put the old time stats on a pedestal as if for some reason those things could never be matched. Hank Aaron must've been on something, nobody before had a career that long and durable with that much power.

[Andy]

Personally, I don't think that ANY player is a HOFer until their name is cleared of steroids. Both Sosa & McGwire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

Shouldn't it be that any player is eligible UNTIL there is substantial proof they've used steroids?

 

Your idea seems sort of backwards.

 

That's the way it SHOULD be.

 

Year - HR

1993 - 33

1994 - 25-prorated to 40 over 162 games

1995 - 36-41 over 162

1996 - 40-52 over 162

1997 - 36-41 over 162

 

1998 - 66-age 29

1999 - 63-age 30

2000 - 50-age 31

2001 - 64-age 32

 

2002 - 49-age 33-53 over 162

2003 - 40-age 34(hit in the head with pitch affecting his approach at the plate)-47 over 162

2004 - 35-age 35-45 over 162.

 

Why that almost looks like a natural progression or something.

 

I've been watching baseball since the early 80's, here's my idea of a power hitter -

 

30-40 HR's - power hitter

40-50 HR's - elite power hitter

50+ - elite power hitter having a career year

 

I'm all for giving a guy the benifit of the doubt, but there are some things I personally just can't turn a blind eye too. I have to agree with Abe, Sosa and McGuire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

Babe Ruth was roided out of his mind.

 

You're funny. Show me a list of players to put up Sosa's lines. On that list, those stats can't come from 1998-2001.

Greg Vaughn, Brady Anderson, Bret Boone, and many others have put up FAR more suspicious stat lines in their careers than Sosa, who was a 30-HR hitter as soon as he started playing full time.

[SouthSideRyan]

Continuing with Ruth: So much is made over Maris's HR record being broken so many times over the past few years. Obviously, steroids. The old HR record pre-Ruth was 27, and a dubious 27 at that as it was pre-modern era, and set by a guy who never hit double digitis in HRs other than that year.(obviously he was on some form of steroids) Ruth broke the 27 with 29 in 1919. He would then go on to hit more than the previous record every year except one from 1919-1933 Never done before, never been done since. Ruth wasn't just on steroids, he was on some other worldly steroids.

[CarolinaCubFan]

 

You're funny. Show me a list of players to put up Sosa's lines. On that list, those stats can't come from 1998-2001.

 

So nothing new can ever be done in baseball again. Ignoring the changing parks and nature of the ball, if something's done that's never been done before it must be due to cheating. Everyone loves to just put the old time stats on a pedestal as if for some reason those things could never be matched. Hank Aaron must've been on something, nobody before had a career that long and durable with that much power.

 

Yeah, what Sosa and McGuire did was "new". A real acheivment. Sammy Sosa could never even hold Hank Aaron's jock IMHO.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

You're funny. Show me a list of players to put up Sosa's lines. On that list, those stats can't come from 1998-2001.

 

So nothing new can ever be done in baseball again. Ignoring the changing parks and nature of the ball, if something's done that's never been done before it must be due to cheating. Everyone loves to just put the old time stats on a pedestal as if for some reason those things could never be matched. Hank Aaron must've been on something, nobody before had a career that long and durable with that much power.

 

Yeah, what Sosa and McGuire did was "new". A real acheivment. Sammy Sosa could never even hold Hank Aaron's jock IMHO.

 

Why? Because he's playing in modern times? I feel like Sulley.

[UBlink]

Personally, I don't think that ANY player is a HOFer until their name is cleared of steroids. Both Sosa & McGwire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

I'll take it further - let's also have all existing HOFers clear their name of amphetamine use. If someone came up with a test for amphetamine use that could be applied to all those uniforms, caps, etc in Cooperstown I think it would be quite revealing.

[fromthestretch]

Personally, I don't think that ANY player is a HOFer until their name is cleared of steroids. Both Sosa & McGwire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

Considering that some pitchers have been suspended for steroid use and that we'll never really know how many of them took steroids or some sort of performance-enhancing drugs, I don't think it's fair to only indict position players in the court of public opinion. In fact, I believe the fact that some pitchers have taken things to enhance their performance makes it a bit more of a level playing field.

[CubbieRich]

And all that said McGwire has a better HOF case than Sammy.

 

Let's see: Sammy hit for a higher batting average, scored more runs, drove in more runs, hit more doubles, hit more triples, hit more HR and stole more bases. Plus, McGwire was not durable as the most number of games he played in a year was 156 games, while Sammy had 6 seasons of 156 games and more. Sammy never batted .187..never.

 

Give me the guy who always answers the bell, puts up better numbers and is an MVP.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

And all that said McGwire has a better HOF case than Sammy.

 

Let's see: Sammy hit for a higher batting average, scored more runs, drove in more runs, hit more doubles, hit more triples, hit more HR and stole more bases. Plus, McGwire was not durable as the most number of games he played in a year was 156 games, while Sammy had 6 seasons of 156 games and more. Sammy never batted .187..never.

 

Give me the guy who always answers the bell, puts up better numbers and is an MVP.

 

McGwire's year when he hit .187 > Sosa's 2005

 

Sosa had better durability than McGwire, it's a valid point(and the only point brought up in your post by posting all the cumulative stats). When McGwire played, he was better. He got on base more(about 50 points of OBP), and he hit for more power(about 50 points of SLG).

[CubbieRich]

And all that said McGwire has a better HOF case than Sammy.

 

Let's see: Sammy hit for a higher batting average, scored more runs, drove in more runs, hit more doubles, hit more triples, hit more HR and stole more bases. Plus, McGwire was not durable as the most number of games he played in a year was 156 games, while Sammy had 6 seasons of 156 games and more. Sammy never batted .187..never.

 

Give me the guy who always answers the bell, puts up better numbers and is an MVP.

 

McGwire's year when he hit .187 > Sosa's 2005

 

Sosa had better durability than McGwire, it's a valid point(and the only point brought up in your post by posting all the cumulative stats). When McGwire played, he was better. He got on base more(about 50 points of OBP), and he hit for more power(about 50 points of SLG).

 

If you have to begin any argument by saying 'when', then the selective stats tend to ignore the big picture. It denotes that people want to inject some limits to the argument, because the full stats are so overwhelming. It's similar to taking one season of success by Quin Snyder coaching at Missouri and then comparing that to Norm Stewart's full career. If you look long enough, I'm sure anyone can find made-up comparisons.

 

It goes back to production over a career and clearly Sammy has done that far greater than McGwire.

[fromthestretch]

It goes back to production over a career and clearly Sammy has done that far greater than McGwire.

 

How is having a lower career OBP by .049, a lower career SLG by .051, only five more career homers, and 161 more career RBI all in 1782 more career plate appearances considered far greater?

 

Sosa's 162-game average for his career:

.274/.345/.537, 43 HR, 114 RBI, 103 R, 65 BB, 159 K

 

McGwire's 162-game average for his career:

.263/.394/.588, 50 HR, 122 RBI, 101 R, 114 BB, 138 K

 

I don't see how Sammy was "far greater" over his career.

[XZero771679666304]

It goes back to production over a career and clearly Sammy has done that far greater than McGwire.

 

How is having a lower career OBP by .049, a lower career SLG by .051, only five more career homers, and 161 more career RBI all in 1782 more career plate appearances considered far greater?

 

Sosa's 162-game average for his career:

.274/.345/.537, 43 HR, 114 RBI, 103 R, 65 BB, 159 K

 

McGwire's 162-game average for his career:

.263/.394/.588, 50 HR, 122 RBI, 101 R, 114 BB, 138 K

 

I don't see how Sammy was "far greater" over his career.

 

Using 162-game averages for McGwire is masking his biggest problem. Mac was a guy who either hit homers, singles or walked, and couldn't play a full season. One dimensional and injury prone. I think I built a pretty solid case for Sammy over Mac in one of the Mac steroids threads, but I'm not going to do it again. I'll just say that IMO, Sammy was more versatile, and during their respective primes, Sammy was just plain better. More XBH, runs, hits and a better defender.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

- Both are 1st ballot HOF'ers if steroid suspicion is not rampant.

- Neither are 1st ballot HOF'ers if they get caught/admit using.

- Both are I think widely believed to be users.

- McGwire is more likely to suffer because of his congressional appearance.

- Sammy's corked bat will no doubt cast a shadow.

 

If they were clean, both definitely deserve the HOF on their first ballot. However, I think too many writers will view both as being juiced, and it will be extremely interesting over the next few years to see how many from this "era" are ultimately elected. I have a feeling there won't be nearly as many as we thought would pre-Canseco.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

And all that said McGwire has a better HOF case than Sammy.

 

Let's see: Sammy hit for a higher batting average, scored more runs, drove in more runs, hit more doubles, hit more triples, hit more HR and stole more bases. Plus, McGwire was not durable as the most number of games he played in a year was 156 games, while Sammy had 6 seasons of 156 games and more. Sammy never batted .187..never.

 

Give me the guy who always answers the bell, puts up better numbers and is an MVP.

 

McGwire's year when he hit .187 > Sosa's 2005

 

Sosa had better durability than McGwire, it's a valid point(and the only point brought up in your post by posting all the cumulative stats). When McGwire played, he was better. He got on base more(about 50 points of OBP), and he hit for more power(about 50 points of SLG).

 

If you have to begin any argument by saying 'when', then the selective stats tend to ignore the big picture. It denotes that people want to inject some limits to the argument, because the full stats are so overwhelming. It's similar to taking one season of success by Quin Snyder coaching at Missouri and then comparing that to Norm Stewart's full career. If you look long enough, I'm sure anyone can find made-up comparisons.

 

It goes back to production over a career and clearly Sammy has done that far greater than McGwire.

 

What are you talking about? You're the one who said Sammy never batted .187 like it was something to be proud of. Turns out, even though he was never that low in batting average, he had a season worse than McGwire's .187 season.

 

Like I said before, McGwire's disadvantage in playing time is a valid concern. For me, I don't think McGwire's numbers would've dipped with more PT(it's not like Murton having 100 big league AB's, we're talking a full career), and when he did play he was significantly better than Sosa. For me that's enough to conclude that Sosa is not definitively better.

[CarolinaCubFan]

- Both are 1st ballot HOF'ers if steroid suspicion is not rampant.

- Neither are 1st ballot HOF'ers if they get caught/admit using.

- Both are I think widely believed to be users.

- McGwire is more likely to suffer because of his congressional appearance.

- Sammy's corked bat will no doubt cast a shadow.

 

If they were clean, both definitely deserve the HOF on their first ballot. However, I think too many writers will view both as being juiced, and it will be extremely interesting over the next few years to see how many from this "era" are ultimately elected. I have a feeling there won't be nearly as many as we thought would pre-Canseco.

 

Good post Pedro.

[CubbieRich]

And all that said McGwire has a better HOF case than Sammy.

 

Let's see: Sammy hit for a higher batting average, scored more runs, drove in more runs, hit more doubles, hit more triples, hit more HR and stole more bases. Plus, McGwire was not durable as the most number of games he played in a year was 156 games, while Sammy had 6 seasons of 156 games and more. Sammy never batted .187..never.

 

Give me the guy who always answers the bell, puts up better numbers and is an MVP.

 

McGwire's year when he hit .187 > Sosa's 2005

 

Sosa had better durability than McGwire, it's a valid point(and the only point brought up in your post by posting all the cumulative stats). When McGwire played, he was better. He got on base more(about 50 points of OBP), and he hit for more power(about 50 points of SLG).

 

If you have to begin any argument by saying 'when', then the selective stats tend to ignore the big picture. It denotes that people want to inject some limits to the argument, because the full stats are so overwhelming. It's similar to taking one season of success by Quin Snyder coaching at Missouri and then comparing that to Norm Stewart's full career. If you look long enough, I'm sure anyone can find made-up comparisons.

 

It goes back to production over a career and clearly Sammy has done that far greater than McGwire.

 

What are you talking about? You're the one who said Sammy never batted .187 like it was something to be proud of. Turns out, even though he was never that low in batting average, he had a season worse than McGwire's .187 season.

 

Like I said before, McGwire's disadvantage in playing time is a valid concern. For me, I don't think McGwire's numbers would've dipped with more PT(it's not like Murton having 100 big league AB's, we're talking a full career), and when he did play he was significantly better than Sosa. For me that's enough to conclude that Sosa is not definitively better.

 

When, if, I don't think..etc...Give me Sosa who was more durable and produced consistently. I don't think one needs to shroud Sammy's superior stats with any such qualifiers.

 

I believe it was Tard Mgr. Tony LaRussa who pinch hit for the .187 McGwire and said something to the effect that he 'would hate to have this to be his lasting memory of Mark McGwire.' He knew it would be.

[Soul]

*sigh*

 

It's sad to see Sosa leave the league without so much as a press conference.

 

For quite a few years, he was the only reason to watch the Cubs. I will remember the good times, not the way it ended.