Sammy Far Superior to Big Yak

[CubbieRich]

It looks that Sammy Sosa may retire soon and people will continue to take shots at him. Deserved or not, they will compare him to Mark McGwire as a player. That's silly. Big Yak was a one trick pony who had no speed, was brittle and a sour individual. Even in his best year(1998) that he hit 70 HR, only two sportswriters(St. Louis) voted for him for NL MVP. Why was that?

 

Sammy has a higher career BA(.274), played in more games(366), scored more runs(255), more hits(678), more doubles(103), more triples(38), more HR(5), more SB(222) and more RBI(161). Stats don't lie, Sammy is 1st ballot HOF.

 

At the All-Star Game in Boston, as many players fell all overthemselves to greet HOF Ted Williams, Ted's first words were "Where's Sammy?"

[Abe Frohman]

I think that Mark McGwire being up for HOF voting this coming year, we are going to see the doodoo hit the fan as far as how HOFers, writers, and everyone else feels about McGwire's worthiness.

 

I think that it is up for scrutiny. I don't think players with the cloud of possible steroid use are going to be shoe-ins. It needs to be discussed.

 

Personally, I don't think that ANY player is a HOFer until their name is cleared of steroids. Both Sosa & McGwire pretty much reek with guilt.

[rocket]

Far superior?

 

Mark McGwire has a higher career OBP (.394 vs. .345), higher career SLG (.588 vs. .537), which translates to a 100 points higher career OPS (.982 vs. .882) for McGwire. McGwire also has a much higher career OPS+ than Sosa (163 vs. 129).

 

And McGwire was robbed in the 1998 NL MVP race.

[Mark Priors Calves]

McGwire being a "sour individual" should have nothing to do with ranking him on the all-time great player list. If we're including personality and off the field topics into that discussion, Sosa should be downgraded for something of the things he did too.

[Abe Frohman]

We all know that a player's attitude/relationship with the press determine if they have a chance at Cooperstown. Sammy had a pretty good repoir with the writers, methinks. At least some of them. I'll bet a lot of them wouldn't dare talking about what they see in the clubhouse unless they got really angry at a player.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

And McGwire was robbed in the 1998 NL MVP race.

 

Not by a long shot.

[Abe Frohman]

We all know that a player's attitude/relationship with the press determine if they have a chance at Cooperstown. Sammy had a pretty good repoir with the writers, methinks. At least some of them. I'll bet a lot of them wouldn't dare talking about what they see in the clubhouse unless they got really angry at a player.

[rocket]

And McGwire was robbed in the 1998 NL MVP race.

 

Not by a long shot.

 

.299/.470/.752 217 OPS+ 70 HR 147 RBI

.308/.377/.647 160 OPS+ 66 HR 158 RBI

 

Just looking at the numbers, it's not particularly close.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

.299/.470/.752 217 OPS+ 70 HR 147 RBI

.308/.377/.647 160 OPS+ 66 HR 158 RBI

 

Just looking at the numbers, it's not particularly close.

 

Most Valuable Player, not best numbers. Without Sammy, the 98 Cubs would not have made the playoffs. McGwire's numbers were superior, but the Cards did not make the playoffs. Sammy was more valuable than Mac. In my opinion, it wasn't even close.

[rocket]

.299/.470/.752 217 OPS+ 70 HR 147 RBI

.308/.377/.647 160 OPS+ 66 HR 158 RBI

 

Just looking at the numbers, it's not particularly close.

 

Most Valuable Player, not best numbers. Without Sammy, the 98 Cubs would not have made the playoffs. McGwire's numbers were superior, but the Cards did not make the playoffs. Sammy was more valuable than Mac. In my opinion, it wasn't even close.

 

So you think Pujols deserved it over Lee then?

[David]

.299/.470/.752 217 OPS+ 70 HR 147 RBI

.308/.377/.647 160 OPS+ 66 HR 158 RBI

 

Just looking at the numbers, it's not particularly close.

 

Most Valuable Player, not best numbers. Without Sammy, the 98 Cubs would not have made the playoffs. McGwire's numbers were superior, but the Cards did not make the playoffs. Sammy was more valuable than Mac. In my opinion, it wasn't even close.

 

I'm so tired of this argument. It's not the most valuable player to their particular team. It's most valuable. Period. As much as I love Sammy, McGwire should've won the 98 MVP.

 

It's an individual award and team accomplishments should not play any factor whatsoever.

[Gunned]

Personally, I don't think that ANY player is a HOFer until their name is cleared of steroids. Both Sosa & McGwire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

Shouldn't it be that any player is eligible UNTIL there is substantial proof they've used steroids?

 

Your idea seems sort of backwards.

[abuck1220]

well, another one trick pony ex-st. louis cardinal (o. smith) got in on the first ballot while a much more complete cub (sandberg) didn't. so you never know.

[Tim]

Personally, I don't think that ANY player is a HOFer until their name is cleared of steroids. Both Sosa & McGwire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

Shouldn't it be that any player is eligible UNTIL there is substantial proof they've used steroids?

 

Your idea seems sort of backwards.

McCarthy would be proud.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

It's not the most valuable player to their particular team. It's most valuable. Period.

 

And exactly how was McGwire more valuable than Sammy? Because he had better numbers? Sammy's value was greater because his performance had a greater impact on his team's performance. In other words, his stats provided greater value. Period.

 

 

So you think Pujols deserved it over Lee then?

 

My beef with Pujols getting the MVP last year over Lee was that Pujols was an impact player on an already really good team. He didn't make as much of a difference on their overall performance. Lee was screwed because we didn't have anyone batting in front of him, resulting in fewer team wins because we weren't scoring as much. Had we had legitimate hitters in the 1-2 spots, Lee would have likely had 30+ more RBIs, and the team would have been serious contenders for the wild card. That happens, and I think Lee is a lock based on his value.

[Andy]

And McGwire was robbed in the 1998 NL MVP race.

 

Not by a long shot.

Not even CLOSE. Unless you've forgotten who was batting directly behind Sammy in 1998.

 

Hint: Henry Rodriguez.

[Andy]

.299/.470/.752 217 OPS+ 70 HR 147 RBI

.308/.377/.647 160 OPS+ 66 HR 158 RBI

 

Just looking at the numbers, it's not particularly close.

 

Most Valuable Player, not best numbers. Without Sammy, the 98 Cubs would not have made the playoffs. McGwire's numbers were superior, but the Cards did not make the playoffs. Sammy was more valuable than Mac. In my opinion, it wasn't even close.

 

I'm so tired of this argument. It's not the most valuable player to their particular team. It's most valuable. Period. As much as I love Sammy, McGwire should've won the 98 MVP.

 

It's an individual award and team accomplishments should not play any factor whatsoever.

If the team had nothing to do it, then call it the Most Outstanding Player, not the Most Valuable Player.

[Chocolate Milk]

How can you be more valuable than putting up productive numbers? What else can be done? Should McGwire have sold programs at the front door or something? McGwire didn't disserve to win it because he didn't put up the 1800OPS required to make his team a playoff team?

 

Fielding aside, how can a player put up better numbers yet be less valuable to his team? It makes no sense.

[CarolinaCubFan]

Personally, I don't think that ANY player is a HOFer until their name is cleared of steroids. Both Sosa & McGwire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

Shouldn't it be that any player is eligible UNTIL there is substantial proof they've used steroids?

 

Your idea seems sort of backwards.

 

That's the way it SHOULD be.

 

Year - HR

1993 - 33

1994 - 25

1995 - 36

1996 - 40

1997 - 36

 

1998 - 66

1999 - 63

2000 - 50

2001 - 64

 

2002 - 49

2003 - 40

2004 - 35

 

I've been watching baseball since the early 80's, here's my idea of a power hitter -

 

30-40 HR's - power hitter

40-50 HR's - elite power hitter

50+ - elite power hitter having a career year

 

I'm all for giving a guy the benifit of the doubt, but there are some things I personally just can't turn a blind eye too. I have to agree with Abe, Sosa and McGuire pretty much reek with guilt.

[rocket]

.299/.470/.752 217 OPS+ 70 HR 147 RBI

.308/.377/.647 160 OPS+ 66 HR 158 RBI

 

Just looking at the numbers, it's not particularly close.

 

Most Valuable Player, not best numbers. Without Sammy, the 98 Cubs would not have made the playoffs. McGwire's numbers were superior, but the Cards did not make the playoffs. Sammy was more valuable than Mac. In my opinion, it wasn't even close.

 

I'm so tired of this argument. It's not the most valuable player to their particular team. It's most valuable. Period. As much as I love Sammy, McGwire should've won the 98 MVP.

 

It's an individual award and team accomplishments should not play any factor whatsoever.

If the team had nothing to do it, then call it the Most Outstanding Player, not the Most Valuable Player.

 

By our logic, only really famous players should get into the Hall of Fame, even if they have amazing career numbers but weren't household names.

[rocket]

My beef with Pujols getting the MVP last year over Lee was that Pujols was an impact player on an already really good team. He didn't make as much of a difference on their overall performance. Lee was screwed because we didn't have anyone batting in front of him, resulting in fewer team wins because we weren't scoring as much. Had we had legitimate hitters in the 1-2 spots, Lee would have likely had 30+ more RBIs, and the team would have been serious contenders for the wild card. That happens, and I think Lee is a lock based on his value.

 

Well, it's called Most Valuable Player, not Most Outstanding Player who should have had better numbers if it wasn't for manager incompetence.

[SouthSideRyan]

Personally, I don't think that ANY player is a HOFer until their name is cleared of steroids. Both Sosa & McGwire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

Shouldn't it be that any player is eligible UNTIL there is substantial proof they've used steroids?

 

Your idea seems sort of backwards.

 

That's the way it SHOULD be.

 

Year - HR

1993 - 33

1994 - 25-prorated to 40 over 162 games

1995 - 36-41 over 162

1996 - 40-52 over 162

1997 - 36-41 over 162

 

1998 - 66-age 29

1999 - 63-age 30

2000 - 50-age 31

2001 - 64-age 32

 

2002 - 49-age 33-53 over 162

2003 - 40-age 34(hit in the head with pitch affecting his approach at the plate)-47 over 162

2004 - 35-age 35-45 over 162.

 

Why that almost looks like a natural progression or something.

 

I've been watching baseball since the early 80's, here's my idea of a power hitter -

 

30-40 HR's - power hitter

40-50 HR's - elite power hitter

50+ - elite power hitter having a career year

 

I'm all for giving a guy the benifit of the doubt, but there are some things I personally just can't turn a blind eye too. I have to agree with Abe, Sosa and McGuire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

Babe Ruth was roided out of his mind.

[SouthSideRyan]

And all that said McGwire has a better HOF case than Sammy. McGwire has a longer peak and had much higher OBPs and SLGs. That said, it's closer than some people let on when you factor in Sammy's years as an average CF and then a couple years as an above average RF followed by some average years as a RF while McGwire never really went above average(gold glove or not) at the easiest defensive position. Sosa's baserunning also gives him some points on McGwire.

[David]

It's not the most valuable player to their particular team. It's most valuable. Period.

 

And exactly how was McGwire more valuable than Sammy? Because he had better numbers? Sammy's value was greater because his performance had a greater impact on his team's performance. In other words, his stats provided greater value. Period.

 

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine. You put McGwire on the 98 Cubs in place of Sammy (position differences aside, just offense) and the team is no worse off. In fact, it's better off, unless you, for some reason, think that McGwire's performance would've dropped off had he been on the Cubs.

 

That's a very general, over-simplified example of why I feel team performance should have no bearing on the MVP. Unfortunately, most of the time it does.

[CarolinaCubFan]

Personally, I don't think that ANY player is a HOFer until their name is cleared of steroids. Both Sosa & McGwire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

Shouldn't it be that any player is eligible UNTIL there is substantial proof they've used steroids?

 

Your idea seems sort of backwards.

 

That's the way it SHOULD be.

 

Year - HR

1993 - 33

1994 - 25-prorated to 40 over 162 games

1995 - 36-41 over 162

1996 - 40-52 over 162

1997 - 36-41 over 162

 

1998 - 66-age 29

1999 - 63-age 30

2000 - 50-age 31

2001 - 64-age 32

 

2002 - 49-age 33-53 over 162

2003 - 40-age 34(hit in the head with pitch affecting his approach at the plate)-47 over 162

2004 - 35-age 35-45 over 162.

 

Why that almost looks like a natural progression or something.

 

I've been watching baseball since the early 80's, here's my idea of a power hitter -

 

30-40 HR's - power hitter

40-50 HR's - elite power hitter

50+ - elite power hitter having a career year

 

I'm all for giving a guy the benifit of the doubt, but there are some things I personally just can't turn a blind eye too. I have to agree with Abe, Sosa and McGuire pretty much reek with guilt.

 

Babe Ruth was roided out of his mind.

 

You're funny. Show me a list of players to put up Sosa's lines. On that list, those stats can't come from 1998-2001.