Soriano or Vidro a possibility

[Mark Priors Calves]

im not comparing the obp of them i know walker can get on base but i think murton or cedeno would be better at doing the litte things like bunting the runner over. I remember that walker is not to great of a bunter. Id like Soriano at 5 not for his obp

 

Walker is a great number 2 hitter because of his OBP, not for ridiculous reasons like bunting over runners. If Pierre is as fast as advertised he should be able to get to 2nd base on his own, not by taking the bat out of the hands of a solid hitter like Walker.

[rjchapma]

I'd rather not give away outs by doing too much bunting from the number two spot.

 

I dont agree with that philosophy. The White Sox won last year and im pretty sure they were at the top in sacrifices. Sacrificing has been in the league for a hundred years. Time shows it's an effective strategy.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The White Sox won last year and im pretty sure they were at the top in sacrifices. Sacrificing has been in the league for a hundred years. Time shows it's an effective strategy.

 

A lot of things that are bad have been around for a long time, progression is real. The White Sox were 16th(16 sacs behind the Cubs) in sacrifices last year. It's been proven to be an ineffective strategy.

 

EDIT: San Francisco and Washington tied for the most sacrifices last year. They were last and second to last in Runs.

[Drew Doughty]

I'd rather not give away outs by doing too much bunting from the number two spot.

 

I dont agree with that philosophy. The White Sox won last year and im pretty sure they were at the top in sacrifices. Sacrificing has been in the league for a hundred years. Time shows it's an effective strategy.

 

Time also shows that a group of pitchers having the season of their career will also be a very effective strategy.

[EastonBlues22]

EDIT: San Francisco and Washington tied for the most sacrifices last year. They were last and second to last in Runs.

Interesting correlation...

 

It's impossible to say decisively that the sacrifice attempts caused those two teams to be at the bottom of the league in runs...it could just as easily be something like they played more for sacrifices because they felt their teams were incapable of big innings anyway...as evidenced by the trouble they were having scoring runs.

 

Either way, still interesting.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Bunting with your #2 hitter is OK in my book in the bottom of the 9th of a tie game when your #1 hitter led off with a double. Then again, if Walker is my #2 hitter, pull the damn ball and hit it hard.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

EDIT: San Francisco and Washington tied for the most sacrifices last year. They were last and second to last in Runs.

Interesting correlation...

 

It's impossible to say decisively that the sacrifice attempts caused those two teams to be at the bottom of the league in runs...it could just as easily be something like they played more for sacrifices because they felt their teams were incapable of big innings anyway...as evidenced by the trouble they were having scoring runs.

 

Either way, still interesting.

 

Top 10 in sacrifices- Average rank in Runs: 20th

Bottom 10 in sacrifices- Average rank in Runs: 10th

 

This is skewed because ALL of the top 10 are in the NL(only Cincinnati had fewer sacs than any AL team), and ALL of the bottom 10 are in the AL. I wish we could isolate non-pitcher sacrifices.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Let's try the AL only, to eliminate(except for a few interleague) pitcher sacrifices.

 

2005

Rank in Sacrifices : Rank in Runs

 

1st : 9th

2nd : 12th

3rd : 11th

4th : 7th

5th : 14th

6th : 10th

7th : 4th

8th : 13th

9th : 8th

10th : 2nd

11th : 5th

12th : 6th

13th : 1st

14th : 3rd

 

 

And now 2004:

 

1st : 3rd

2nd : 7th

3rd : 8th

4th : 5th

5th : 6th

6th : 10th

7th : 14th

8th : 11th

9th : 2nd

10th : 13th

11th : 9th

12th : 4th

13th : 12th

14th : 1st

 

And 2003:

 

 

1st : 14th

2nd : 4th

3rd : 10th

4th : 11th

5th : 13th

6th : 8th

7th : 6th

8th : 7th

9th : 12th

10th : 3rd

11th : 1st

12th : 5th

13th : 9th

14th : 2nd

 

So now the average for each spot, remember Sacrifices : Runs

 

1st : 8.6

2nd : 7.6

3rd : 9.6

4th : 7.6

5th : 10.3

6th : 9.3

7th : 8.0

8th : 10.3

9th : 7.3

10th : 6.0

11th : 5.0

12th : 5.0

13th : 7.3

14th : 2.0

 

Rank 1-5: 8.6 average

Rank 6-9: 12.6 average

Rank 10-14: 5.0 average

 

EDIT: Again, the above is likely skewed by small sample size in attempts and in years. Doing this for a lot of years would eliminate some of the organizational bias built in. For example, Toronto, Oakland, and Boston are near the bottom in sacrifices all 3 years. A lack of sacrifices isn't the main reason why Boston scores a ton of runs, although it probably helps. On a larger scale any conclusions you could draw would be more definitive[/obvious].

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Furthermore, with Pierre as my number one hitter, I don't need a number two guy to be a bunter. If Pierre is really worth what we're paying him and what we paid to get him, he should be able to get second on his own if the number two hitter is patient. Walker is.

 

Once Pierre is on second, the need to bunt him is reduced. Considering he should be able to move to third on a ball hit to the right side, I'd then prefer Walker just try to bat him in or get on base behind him for Lee and Ramirez.

 

Which situation is better, one out and Pierre on third with Lee and Ramirez up...or no outs, Pierre and Walker on second and first respectively with Lee and Ramirez coming up. I'll take door number two, thank-you.

[rjchapma]

Im curious to see those rankings in the form of sacrifice:wins. One out man on third your chances of scoring one than hitting into a double play and then having two outs and then not scoring. Im sorry even though I think DLee and Rameriez are great hitters I'd take take my chances with the gaurenteed run then the chance that we might get more if we have two guys on.

[fromthestretch]

Im curious to see those rankings in the form of sacrifice:wins. One out man on third your chances of scoring one than hitting into a double play and then having two outs and then not scoring. Im sorry even though I think DLee and Rameriez are great hitters I'd take take my chances with the gaurenteed run then the chance that we might get more if we have two guys on.

 

Perhaps I'm misreading this, but are you advocating bunting Pierre from second to third? If he can't score from second on a single with his speed, then he's worth less than I thought. Second base is considered scoring position.

 

I'm not a fan of bunting runners over. Obviously, there are situations where one run wins the game, and bunting may get a runner closer to home. But by and large, it's a waste of an out. Plus, there's no guarantee that Walker would be the one due up in that situation anyway. There's no reason to do it early in the game.

 

What makes Walker a good #2 hitter is that he makes good contact, gets on base, and has some extra-base power. The fact that he's left-handed and can pull the ball to right field makes it easier for Pierre to go from first to third. Plus, he's done a decent job at avoiding grounding into double plays the past two years. His ability (or lack thereof) to bunt shouldn't be a factor here.

[rjchapma]

Don't get me wrong I like Walker and would love him at 2. I started this message board because of the trade possiblity for Soriano or Vidro. All I'm saying (and I think most of you are misinterpreting) that Soriano at 5 and murton at 2 looks better than Walker at 2 and Jones at 5. I never was comparing Walker's obp to Soriano's. In fact Walker does have a better obp than Soriano. Although Soriano would not be batting 2 so his obp wouldn't matter so much at the 5 spot when he hit 30 dongs and around 100 RBI's for us. So don't get me wrong if we start the year with walker thats great, but all im saying is I would prefer murton batting 2 and Soriano batting 5 over Walker batting 2 and Jones batting 5.

[fromthestretch]

Don't get me wrong I like Walker and would love him at 2. I started this message board because of the trade possiblity for Soriano or Vidro. All I'm saying (and I think most of you are misinterpreting) that Soriano at 5 and murton at 2 looks better than Walker at 2 and Jones at 5.

 

If all costs were equal, I'd probably agree with that statement. But considering the talent and money it would cost to get Soriano, I'll take the latter for now.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Don't get me wrong I like Walker and would love him at 2. I started this message board because of the trade possiblity for Soriano or Vidro. All I'm saying (and I think most of you are misinterpreting) that Soriano at 5 and murton at 2 looks better than Walker at 2 and Jones at 5.

 

If all costs were equal, I'd probably agree with that statement. But considering the talent and money it would cost to get Soriano, I'll take the latter for now.

 

I agree.

 

Now if the Nationals are willing to trade Soriano for a player like Wellemeyer, sure, give me Soriano. If they want a top level player or prospect, I'll pass.

 

We already have a decent secondbasemen and the upgrade isn't worth the cost.

[BigbadB]

Don't get me wrong I like Walker and would love him at 2. I started this message board because of the trade possiblity for Soriano or Vidro. All I'm saying (and I think most of you are misinterpreting) that Soriano at 5 and murton at 2 looks better than Walker at 2 and Jones at 5. I never was comparing Walker's obp to Soriano's. In fact Walker does have a better obp than Soriano. Although Soriano would not be batting 2 so his obp wouldn't matter so much at the 5 spot when he hit 30 dongs and around 100 RBI's for us. So don't get me wrong if we start the year with walker thats great, but all im saying is I would prefer murton batting 2 and Soriano batting 5 over Walker batting 2 and Jones batting 5.

 

I think you are forgetting who is managing this team. If Walker weren't here and Soriano was, Jones would likely be batting 2nd, not Murton. Dusty sees speed and AVG as important at the top of the order, not OBP.

 

Walker hit 6th quite a bit last year while Neifi hit at the top of the order. Who filled out that line up card?

[rjchapma]

Agreed, but looking at there situation I think that they wont ask for two much probably Walker and Welly or something like that for either Vidro or Soriano. I could be wrong, but it seems like Soriano refuses to play outfield and if they put him at second Vidro doesn't have a job. So I don't think it would cost to much. In that case I would be willing to take on the salary to improve our team.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Agreed, but looking at there situation I think that they wont ask for two much probably Walker and Welly or something like that for either Vidro or Soriano. I could be wrong, but it seems like Soriano refuses to play outfield and if they put him at second Vidro doesn't have a job. So I don't think it would cost to much. In that case I would be willing to take on the salary to improve our team.

 

Considering they gave Wilkerson, Sledge, and another minor leaguer for Soriano...my guess is they would want significantly more than Walker and Wellemeyer.

[rjchapma]

Soriano, yeah probably more, but Vidro that sounds right. I like Vidro I know he has had injury problems, but when healthy hes just as productive at the 2 spot as Walker or so it seems.

[USSoccer]

Soriano, yeah probably more, but Vidro that sounds right. I like Vidro I know he has had injury problems, but when healthy hes just as productive at the 2 spot as Walker or so it seems.

 

Except that he hasn't been healthy in 3 years, and makes about 4 times what Walker makes. The marginal improvement isn't worth the salary or the injury risk.

[rjchapma]

I can see your point.