Justice Finally (FKA- Reyes Vs. Ponson )

[indifferent]

The only argument against Reyes I've heard is that he needs another year of health in the minors. ???? If he has learned everything he needs and is major league ready then bring him up. YOU CANNOT TEACH HEALTH. Sending him down just wastes time. Putting him in the pen would screw with his routine as a starter.

 

If I haven't already expressed my agreement, I'm doing so now. All these arguments about "the best case scenario is Reyes in AAA means Ponson is doing well and gives Reyes more seasoning" doesn't fly with me. Put your best team on the field, period. Just because Ponson doesn't blow up in the early goings doesn't tell me the Cards are putting their best team on the field. Put him on a pitch count, but I'll still take Reyes 8 times out of a 7 day week.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

The only argument against Reyes I've heard is that he needs another year of health in the minors. ???? If he has learned everything he needs and is major league ready then bring him up. YOU CANNOT TEACH HEALTH. Sending him down just wastes time. Putting him in the pen would screw with his routine as a starter.

 

Meh, Reyes is overrated.

 

Let the most inebriated pitcher win the 5th spot, if that is Ponson than so be it.

 

fixed

 

Alcoholism isn't funny.

[UK1679666180]

The only argument against Reyes I've heard is that he needs another year of health in the minors. ???? If he has learned everything he needs and is major league ready then bring him up. YOU CANNOT TEACH HEALTH. Sending him down just wastes time. Putting him in the pen would screw with his routine as a starter.

 

Meh, Reyes is overrated.

 

Let the best pitcher win the 5th spot, if that is Ponson than so be it.

 

If Reyes is outpitched by Ponson, some stars will have aligned in a form I have never seen before.

 

At this stage, it's all spec. but I can't see Ponson even coming close to outpitching Reyes.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

The only argument against Reyes I've heard is that he needs another year of health in the minors. ???? If he has learned everything he needs and is major league ready then bring him up. YOU CANNOT TEACH HEALTH. Sending him down just wastes time. Putting him in the pen would screw with his routine as a starter.

 

Meh, Reyes is overrated.

 

Let the best pitcher win the 5th spot, if that is Ponson than so be it.

 

If Reyes is outpitched by Ponson, some stars will have aligned in a form I have never seen before.

 

At this stage, it's all spec. but I can't see Ponson even coming close to outpitching Reyes.

 

I agree, Reyes should win. However, I refuse to be close minded about Ponson.

[UK1679666180]

I'd question the Cards faith in him as a starter if Ponson is the #5 over him. If they have questions about his health and his poor delivery, they could ponder whether his delivery is more suited in the pen rather than the rotation, which would be a poor move from this angle.

 

Nothing close-minded about it, Reyes is a very gifted young pitcher and Ponson is a project.

 

To me, Reyes' health concerns are not as severe as Ponson's obesity, work ethic, baseball IQ, and drinking problems of the past

[indifferent]

The only argument against Reyes I've heard is that he needs another year of health in the minors. ???? If he has learned everything he needs and is major league ready then bring him up. YOU CANNOT TEACH HEALTH. Sending him down just wastes time. Putting him in the pen would screw with his routine as a starter.

 

Meh, Reyes is overrated.

 

Let the best pitcher win the 5th spot, if that is Ponson than so be it.

 

If Reyes is outpitched by Ponson, some stars will have aligned in a form I have never seen before.

 

At this stage, it's all spec. but I can't see Ponson even coming close to outpitching Reyes.

 

I agree, Reyes should win. However, I refuse to be close minded about Ponson.

 

CFICT, I hope to give you the respect your posting here deserves. But I refuse to buy into this Ponson hype that is accorded to everyone that dons a Cardinal uniform, after the initial dismay. Ponson never was an elite pitcher and although his numerous alcohol-related arrests points to a reason, I'm shying away from this feel good story.

 

The fact that he's even considered as competition for a starting spot and spring training will be the "showdown" is insulting to me and it should be insulting to Anthony Reyes. Hopefully that will prove motivating to Reyes and not de-motivating. As Wolf has said before, you can't teach healthy.

 

That being said I'm not going to boo him on the mound if he happens to win the job over Reyes. I'm just going to wait for the other shoe to drop and lament Reyes' dwindling chances to prove himself while still with the Cards.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

The only argument against Reyes I've heard is that he needs another year of health in the minors. ???? If he has learned everything he needs and is major league ready then bring him up. YOU CANNOT TEACH HEALTH. Sending him down just wastes time. Putting him in the pen would screw with his routine as a starter.

 

If a young pitcher is ready for the big leagues but has some health issues, you'd think the best strategy would be to promote him to the big leagues so as to maximize his healthy days.

 

I don't think Ponson can beat out Reyes if there's a fair spring training competition and neither gets injured.

[K-Town]

The only argument against Reyes I've heard is that he needs another year of health in the minors. ???? If he has learned everything he needs and is major league ready then bring him up. YOU CANNOT TEACH HEALTH. Sending him down just wastes time. Putting him in the pen would screw with his routine as a starter.

 

Meh, Reyes is overrated.

 

Let the best pitcher win the 5th spot, if that is Ponson than so be it.

 

If Reyes is outpitched by Ponson, some stars will have aligned in a form I have never seen before.

 

At this stage, it's all spec. but I can't see Ponson even coming close to outpitching Reyes.

 

I agree, Reyes should win. However, I refuse to be close minded about Ponson.

 

CFICT, I hope to give you the respect your posting here deserves. But I refuse to buy into this Ponson hype that is accorded to everyone that dons a Cardinal uniform, after the initial dismay. Ponson never was an elite pitcher and although his numerous alcohol-related arrests points to a reason, I'm shying away from this feel good story.

 

The fact that he's even considered as competition for a starting spot and spring training will be the "showdown" is insulting to me and it should be insulting to Anthony Reyes. Hopefully that will prove motivating to Reyes and not de-motivating. As Wolf has said before, you can't teach healthy.

 

That being said I'm not going to boo him on the mound if he happens to win the job over Reyes. I'm just going to wait for the other shoe to drop and lament Reyes' dwindling chances to prove himself while still with the Cards.

 

I don't think there's any "hype".

 

If Ponson is pitching, and Reyes is at AAA, then it means only ONE thing. Ponson must be pitching relatively well.

 

I'm not sure how that can be construed as a BAD thing, quite frankly. If Ponson is pitching well, and then hits a wall, the Reyes is there to save the day.

 

We're not talking about dumping Reyes in order to give Ponson a job. We're talking about an ideal situation in which the Cards would have a little depth. Anybody who can create a scenario in which Ponson pitching well is a BAD thing isn't thinking the situation through very deeply.

 

I'm not saying that Ponson WILL pitch well. I'm just playing along with a "what if" scenario that someone else created.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

I don't think there's any "hype".

 

If Ponson is pitching, and Reyes is at AAA, then it means only ONE thing. Ponson must be pitching relatively well.

 

I'm not sure how that can be construed as a BAD thing, quite frankly. If Ponson is pitching well, and then hits the bottle, a cop, the buffet table at Lubys'sl, the Reyes is there to save the day.

 

We're not talking about dumping Reyes in order to give Ponson a job. We're talking about an ideal situation in which the Cards would have a little depth. Anybody who can create a scenario in which Ponson pitching well is a BAD thing isn't thinking the situation through very deeply.

 

I'm not saying that Ponson WILL pitch well. I'm just playing along with a "what if" scenario that someone else created.

 

fixed

[SouthSideRyan]

So Ponson has a ~2.00 ERA in Spring Training and "wins" the starting job. You honestly think he has to perform well to stay in the rotation for his first ~10 starts?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

So Ponson has a ~2.00 Blood Alcohol Level in Spring Training and "wins" the starting job. You honestly think he has to perform well to stay in the rotation for his first ~10 starts?

 

fixed

[CardsFanInChiTown]

The only argument against Reyes I've heard is that he needs another year of health in the minors. ???? If he has learned everything he needs and is major league ready then bring him up. YOU CANNOT TEACH HEALTH. Sending him down just wastes time. Putting him in the pen would screw with his routine as a starter.

 

Meh, Reyes is overrated.

 

Let the best pitcher win the 5th spot, if that is Ponson than so be it.

 

If Reyes is outpitched by Ponson, some stars will have aligned in a form I have never seen before.

 

At this stage, it's all spec. but I can't see Ponson even coming close to outpitching Reyes.

 

I agree, Reyes should win. However, I refuse to be close minded about Ponson.

 

CFICT, I hope to give you the respect your posting here deserves. But I refuse to buy into this Ponson hype that is accorded to everyone that dons a Cardinal uniform, after the initial dismay. Ponson never was an elite pitcher and although his numerous alcohol-related arrests points to a reason, I'm shying away from this feel good story.

 

The fact that he's even considered as competition for a starting spot and spring training will be the "showdown" is insulting to me and it should be insulting to Anthony Reyes. Hopefully that will prove motivating to Reyes and not de-motivating. As Wolf has said before, you can't teach healthy.

 

That being said I'm not going to boo him on the mound if he happens to win the job over Reyes. I'm just going to wait for the other shoe to drop and lament Reyes' dwindling chances to prove himself while still with the Cards.

 

indifferent, I repect your post and I happen to agree with many of your points however the Cardinals are in a win now mode and should go with whatever is working. I expect Reyes to win the job however I'm not ready to hand over the #5 spot if he comes in to spring training and stinks it up.

 

 

Right now a lot of Cardinal Nation overrates Reyes potential for 06. His ceiling in the next couple of years is a #2 starter however right now he’s a rookie backend guy fighting for a spot. That isn’t insulting to Reyes, it’s just a fact.

 

Question – What kind of numbers do you expect from Reyes? I certainly expect his ERA to be over 4.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

 

 

The Cardinals are in a win now mode and should go with whatever is working. I expect Reyes to win the job however I'm not ready to hand over the #5 spot if he comes in to spring training and stinks it up.

 

 

Right now a lot of Cardinal Nation overrates Reyes potential for 06. His ceiling in the next couple of years is a #2 starter however right now he’s a rookie backend guy fighting for a spot. That isn’t insulting to Reyes, it’s just a fact.

 

Question – What kind of numbers do you expect from Reyes? I certainly expect his ERA to be over 4.

 

indifferent, I repect your post and I happen to agree with many points however I don't think a "win now" team should hand over a spot to a rookie pitcher.

 

What kind of numbers do you expect from Ponson? I honestly don't see any reasonable scenario in which Ponson outperforms Reyes. You say you don't want just hand over a spot to him, but it's not like there's a reasonable alternative. How are they supposed to judge if Reyes is ready to start, the 20 inning sample size he'll get in ST?

[CardsFanInChiTown]

 

 

 

The Cardinals are in a win now mode and should go with whatever is working. I expect Reyes to win the job however I'm not ready to hand over the #5 spot if he comes in to spring training and stinks it up.

 

 

Right now a lot of Cardinal Nation overrates Reyes potential for 06. His ceiling in the next couple of years is a #2 starter however right now he’s a rookie backend guy fighting for a spot. That isn’t insulting to Reyes, it’s just a fact.

 

Question – What kind of numbers do you expect from Reyes? I certainly expect his ERA to be over 4.

 

indifferent, I repect your post and I happen to agree with many points however I don't think a "win now" team should hand over a spot to a rookie pitcher.

 

What kind of numbers do you expect from Ponson? I honestly don't see any reasonable scenario in which Ponson outperforms Reyes. You say you don't want just hand over a spot to him, but it's not like there's a reasonable alternative. How are they supposed to judge if Reyes is ready to start, the 20 inning sample size he'll get in ST?

 

I agree, it is highly unlikely that Ponson will look better than Reyes. I don't think ST is really a time to judge Reyes as much as a time to judge Ponson - he's the real wild card here. If he looks significantly better than Reyes then you have to give him the job. I think ST will provide enough time to judge Ponson's skills, if he doesn't look great he'll get moved to the pen - something he is agreeable to.

 

Again, I think it'd be a bad idea to just hand Reyes the 5th spot therefore I'm a supporter of the Ponson move.

[UK1679666180]

Anybody who can create a scenario in which Ponson pitching well is a BAD thing isn't thinking the situation through very deeply

 

It depends on pitching "well" and your definition of it. Is he pitching well enough to keep Reyes in the minors or is he pitching well enough to put Marquis in the pen?

 

He and Marquis would have to pitch extremely well to waste a year of Reyes at AAA. He'd have to pitch better than Marquis to merit pitching in the rotation?

 

Btw, when did Marquis become the Gotti of the Cards' rotation? What has done to become a fixture in the rotation over Reyes? He's a selfish player who has had trouble focusing during points in many games he pitched in last year. You don't give up all those big innings w/out losing focus.

 

If Ponson defeated the odds and pitched well enough to make the rotation, I would rather see Reyes in the rotation over Marquis. Of course, I;d still rather see Reyes over Ponson.

 

You don't think Reyes could surpass the numbers of Marquis last year? If Ponson duplicated the numbers of Marquis, would that be considered a good season?

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Vance, are you of the opinion that Ponson is a fat lush? :lol:

[indifferent]

The only argument against Reyes I've heard is that he needs another year of health in the minors. ???? If he has learned everything he needs and is major league ready then bring him up. YOU CANNOT TEACH HEALTH. Sending him down just wastes time. Putting him in the pen would screw with his routine as a starter.

 

Meh, Reyes is overrated.

 

Let the best pitcher win the 5th spot, if that is Ponson than so be it.

 

If Reyes is outpitched by Ponson, some stars will have aligned in a form I have never seen before.

 

At this stage, it's all spec. but I can't see Ponson even coming close to outpitching Reyes.

 

I agree, Reyes should win. However, I refuse to be close minded about Ponson.

 

CFICT, I hope to give you the respect your posting here deserves. But I refuse to buy into this Ponson hype that is accorded to everyone that dons a Cardinal uniform, after the initial dismay. Ponson never was an elite pitcher and although his numerous alcohol-related arrests points to a reason, I'm shying away from this feel good story.

 

The fact that he's even considered as competition for a starting spot and spring training will be the "showdown" is insulting to me and it should be insulting to Anthony Reyes. Hopefully that will prove motivating to Reyes and not de-motivating. As Wolf has said before, you can't teach healthy.

 

That being said I'm not going to boo him on the mound if he happens to win the job over Reyes. I'm just going to wait for the other shoe to drop and lament Reyes' dwindling chances to prove himself while still with the Cards.

 

indifferent, I repect your post and I happen to agree with many of your points however the Cardinals are in a win now mode and should go with whatever is working. I expect Reyes to win the job however I'm not ready to hand over the #5 spot if he comes in to spring training and stinks it up.

 

 

Right now a lot of Cardinal Nation overrates Reyes potential for 06. His ceiling in the next couple of years is a #2 starter however right now he’s a rookie backend guy fighting for a spot. That isn’t insulting to Reyes, it’s just a fact.

 

Question – What kind of numbers do you expect from Reyes? I certainly expect his ERA to be over 4.

 

If he posts a 4.00 ERA, I wouldn't be disappointed. What do you expect out of Ponson and Marquis? Unlike the other two though, Reyes has far more upside. I'd say they both have a better chance of finishing over 4.00. The biggest risk with Reyes is he could hit a dead arm period because of his lack of innings. He's been well handled in the minors. There's no reason not to have Reyes in rotation IMO, stellar ST or not-so-stellar ST.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

The only argument against Reyes I've heard is that he needs another year of health in the minors. ???? If he has learned everything he needs and is major league ready then bring him up. YOU CANNOT TEACH HEALTH. Sending him down just wastes time. Putting him in the pen would screw with his routine as a starter.

 

Meh, Reyes is overrated.

 

Let the best pitcher win the 5th spot, if that is Ponson than so be it.

 

If Reyes is outpitched by Ponson, some stars will have aligned in a form I have never seen before.

 

At this stage, it's all spec. but I can't see Ponson even coming close to outpitching Reyes.

 

I agree, Reyes should win. However, I refuse to be close minded about Ponson.

 

CFICT, I hope to give you the respect your posting here deserves. But I refuse to buy into this Ponson hype that is accorded to everyone that dons a Cardinal uniform, after the initial dismay. Ponson never was an elite pitcher and although his numerous alcohol-related arrests points to a reason, I'm shying away from this feel good story.

 

The fact that he's even considered as competition for a starting spot and spring training will be the "showdown" is insulting to me and it should be insulting to Anthony Reyes. Hopefully that will prove motivating to Reyes and not de-motivating. As Wolf has said before, you can't teach healthy.

 

That being said I'm not going to boo him on the mound if he happens to win the job over Reyes. I'm just going to wait for the other shoe to drop and lament Reyes' dwindling chances to prove himself while still with the Cards.

 

indifferent, I repect your post and I happen to agree with many of your points however the Cardinals are in a win now mode and should go with whatever is working. I expect Reyes to win the job however I'm not ready to hand over the #5 spot if he comes in to spring training and stinks it up.

 

 

Right now a lot of Cardinal Nation overrates Reyes potential for 06. His ceiling in the next couple of years is a #2 starter however right now he’s a rookie backend guy fighting for a spot. That isn’t insulting to Reyes, it’s just a fact.

 

Question – What kind of numbers do you expect from Reyes? I certainly expect his ERA to be over 4.

 

If he posts a 4.00 ERA, I wouldn't be disappointed. What do you expect out of Ponson and Marquis? Unlike the other two though, Reyes has far more upside. I'd say they both have a better chance of finishing over 4.00. The biggest risk with Reyes is he could hit a dead arm period because of his lack of innings. He's been well handled in the minors. There's no reason not to have Reyes in rotation IMO, stellar ST or not-so-stellar ST.

 

I certainly wouldn't be disappointed with 4.00 either - in fact I'd be pleasantly surprised.

 

I agree Reyes has the most upside however I think his floor is lower than Marquis's. Obviously with the information we currently have Ponson has the least potential and the lowest upside. That said, he deserves a chance to show what he’s got this ST. In the end it's very unlikely Ponson will get a starting role however I hope he's motivated Reyes in the offseason.

[wolf stansson]

I think the ideal scenario is Ponson pitches well in ST, anchors the bullpen with long relief/set up and Reyes also pitches well in ST and get the 5th starter's job.

[SouthSideRyan]

I think the ideal scenario is Ponson pitches well in ST, anchors the bullpen with long relief/set up and Reyes also pitches well in ST and get the 5th starter's job.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of Ponson and Reyes both do great in ST, Marquis is traded for scraps, and Ponson busts as expected while Reyes struggles adapting to big league hitting.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Vance, are you of the opinion that Ponson is a fat lush? :lol:

 

I'm of the opinion that Ponson is the third McKenzie brother.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I think the ideal scenario is Ponson eats well in ST, anchors a small river boat with large ass/set up and Reyes also pitches well in ST and gets crushed by Ponson's large ass.

 

fixed

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I think the ideal scenario is Ponson eats well in ST, anchors a small river boat with large ass/set up and Reyes also pitches well in ST and gets crushed by Ponson's large ass.

 

fixed

 

Thanks, I just spit beer all over my keyboard. :lol:

[vaball]

This thread has to win the award for most "fixed" replies by a single poster.

 

How about Ponson and Reyes do great in ST and we trade Ponson to Pittsburgh for Jason Bay straight up? Now that's a scenario I can get behind.

[K-Town]

Anybody who can create a scenario in which Ponson pitching well is a BAD thing isn't thinking the situation through very deeply

 

It depends on pitching "well" and your definition of it. Is he pitching well enough to keep Reyes in the minors or is he pitching well enough to put Marquis in the pen?

 

He and Marquis would have to pitch extremely well to waste a year of Reyes at AAA. He'd have to pitch better than Marquis to merit pitching in the rotation?

 

Btw, when did Marquis become the Gotti of the Cards' rotation? What has done to become a fixture in the rotation over Reyes? He's a selfish player who has had trouble focusing during points in many games he pitched in last year. You don't give up all those big innings w/out losing focus.

 

If Ponson defeated the odds and pitched well enough to make the rotation, I would rather see Reyes in the rotation over Marquis. Of course, I;d still rather see Reyes over Ponson.

 

You don't think Reyes could surpass the numbers of Marquis last year? If Ponson duplicated the numbers of Marquis, would that be considered a good season?

 

What's your problem with Marquis? He's given the Cards over 200 innings each of the last 2 years, and posted ERA+'s of 113 and 103.

 

Besides that, I didn't even mention Marquis in my post.