Uh-Oh: Cubs offer for Jones confirmed

[JeffH]

One concern about Jones (of many) is that his numbers during the daytime have always been poor.

[YearofDaCubs]

So let's see now. All we did on offense is get rid of Nomar and add a leadoff hitter? How exactly are we an improved offense? Hendry is a joke.

 

How many games did Aramis and Nomar actually play together? By the time Nomar was healthy enough to play, Aramis had gone down for the season. So as long as Aramis stays healthy then we haven't lost anything from last season as far as infield production goes. If anything Cedeno > Nefi!.

 

Also Murton > Todd H. + Dubois + Lawton.

 

2005 went wrong for alot of reasons and so far 2 of the outfield positions and the bullpen have been greatly improved.

 

I'm pleased so far with what Hendry has done so far, but he still has a bit more work to do.

 

I believe there will be a better and more experienced team on the field at the start of 2006 than there was in 2005.

When did Murton become a proven commodity? I really like Murton but let's not jump the gun on him and expect him to tear it up like he did last year. Who cares how many games Nomar and ARam played together. Injuries are part of the game. Who is to say DLee or ARam won't go down next year? I'm skeptical that DLee will have another year like he did. Is Walker going to be on this team or is Perez going to be started at 2B? We don;t know that. JJones and Burnitz are a wash. Sorry, but when you have a 100mil payroll you need to make things happen. I don't want to be an average team. I want to be a team good enough to go to the world series and that team we are not. If you want to be optimistic about the situation that's fine. You probably thought last years offense was good enough also.

[jmajew]

Before I'd waste any $$ on Jones, I'd put Corey out in RF and tell him he has a full time job. Save the $, find out what some of our young players like Murton, Cedeno, Hill etc... can do over a full season, play the best you can as a team in 2006 and hope for enough breaks to keep us competitive - then go into next year's offseason with $ as well as a wish list, FILL IT and go for broke in 2007!!!!!!

 

At this point a youth movement would probably be best, but then you have to figure with Dusty that's never going to happen. Hopefully Ronny and Matt don't go on a prolonged slump, otherwise they may get nailed to the bench.

 

If Jacque Jones does indeed sign I cringe to think about how bad the offense is going to be in 2006. It's going to be 2005 all over again, but this time without an MVP calibur season from Derrek Lee.

 

It's sad to think about, but at this point I'm ready to pack it in for the 2006 season. Hopefully the Cubs can get a competent GM and manager for 2007, but that would be too logical.

 

I don't see how everyone can immediately assume that our offense will be worse than last year. The reason our offense was horrible last year was because the OBP of or top two was like .300. That was what killed us. With the addition of Pierre and Walker batting second our offense should be upgraded no matter what. Yes it is not upgraded to the extent we all wish it would have been but it is upgraded none the less.

 

No, I do not want Jones especially in a multi-year deal. I'd rather play Patterson in right and see what we can do. If the top of the order performs and the 5 hole is our biggest problem then we go out and trade for a RF during the season.

[Magnetic Curses]

the cards still have the nucleus of edmonds, pujols, and rolen.

 

while we have aram and lee, it's not quite the same. the card lineup scores runs in it's sleep because their 3 main guys hit and get on base.

[Mizzou]

If Hendry signs Jones, I'm convinced that when looking at options, he looks at the AVG/HR/RBI line rather than the AVG/OBP/SLG line.

 

I don't know if I can remain mentally stable if our 3-4-5 next year is Lee-Jones-Ramirez.

[CubfaninCA]

Hendry's going to get ripped apart regardless of what he does. Whether it's deal off Hill for Huff or go w/ Corey in RF. Nevertheless, they either need Jones to revert back to 02-03 form or pickup Tejada. There's hope for Jones though. The ESPN profile writeup refers to Jones as an emotional person who had difficulty dealing w/ his father's death in late 2004. With more time passed now, perhaps Jones can get back some of his focus, which he probably lost the past few years.

[Mizzou]

Hendry's going to get ripped apart regardless of what he does. Whether it's deal off Hill for Huff or go w/ Corey in RF. Nevertheless, they either need Jones to revert back to 02-03 form or pickup Tejada. There's hope for Jones though. The ESPN profile writeup refers to Jones as an emotional person who had difficulty dealing w/ his father's death in late 2004. With more time passed now, perhaps Jones can get back some of his focus, which he probably lost the past few years.

 

No he's not. Not by me at least. If he signs Jock Jones, then he should get ripped apart... by everyone. Jock Jones sucks.

[E.J.]

I hate this thread. :cry:

[CubfaninCA]

If Hendry signs Jones, I'm convinced that when looking at options, he looks at the AVG/HR/RBI line rather than the AVG/OBP/SLG line.

 

I don't know if I can remain mentally stable if our 3-4-5 next year is Lee-Jones-Ramirez.

 

I'm convinced he sees few other options, and prefers someone else batting 5th, which is why they have inquired about Tejada and why they'd love to get Floyd.

[Magnetic Curses]

If Hendry signs Jones, I'm convinced that when looking at options, he looks at the AVG/HR/RBI line rather than the AVG/OBP/SLG line.

 

I don't know if I can remain mentally stable if our 3-4-5 next year is Lee-Jones-Ramirez.

 

hendry doesn't look at OBP, he considers it a byproduct of good hitting. so he automatically assumes that a hitter who hits .275 with 25 home runs and drives in 80 or more will have a good OBP and SLG. it's like he's never even considered those stats before.

 

he's too busy looking for idiotic stats to support his idotic signings. like remote, irrelevant burnitz numbers from 2004.

[goonys evil twin]

The reason our offense was horrible last year was because the OBP of or top two was like .300. That was what killed us.

 

What killed the offense was a lack of OBP almost everywhere, which was due to a lack of walks. It was not solely because of the 1 and 2 spots, no matter what Hendry tries to sell you this offseason. They sucked in the 4 or 5 spot (whichever one Burnitz was hitting from), and were an awful bottom of the order team as well. And they had absolutely no bench. They were a team full of 6 and 7 hitters.

[CubinNY]

Hendry's going to get ripped apart regardless of what he does.

 

If Hendry lands Abreu or Tejada (for Hill or Guzman + Williams+ prospect) the only people ripping Hendry will be the village contrarians who feel the need to play martyr.

[Lefty]

Hendry's going to get ripped apart regardless of what he does.

 

And whose fault is the current predicamant? You can blame the Tribune, but if Hendry would have had any foresight I'm sure he could have gotten an advance from the Tribune for Guerrero, Tejada, Drew, or any of the other FAs from the last couple of years. Now he has no options? We all know the possible Free Agent classes, and they only shrink. Hendry has no one to blame but himself if he's forced to sign Jones.

[goonys evil twin]

Hendry's going to get ripped apart regardless of what he does.

 

That is so not true, and such a pathetic argument.

 

If Hendry made this team good, he wouldn't be ripped apart. If Hendry made sensible moves that addressed the biggest holes on this team, he wouldn't be ripped apart. Unfortunately, Hendry put together a team that sucked, and hasn't done much to make it better, and he did it all a lot of money.

 

Management of any business should be ripped for spending top dollar for below average results. You would rip apart generals who had a very expensive army that was no better than half the rest of the armies in the world. You would rip apart an auto maker that was among the most expensive but wasn't as good as more than half the rest of the automakers. You would rip apart a pizza shop that produced a very expensive pizza that didn't taste good. It's either that, or you accept mediocrity. And if you are a sports fan, it doesn't make much sense to accept mediocrity.

[Magnetic Curses]

The reason our offense was horrible last year was because the OBP of or top two was like .300. That was what killed us.

 

What killed the offense was a lack of OBP almost everywhere, which was due to a lack of walks. It was not solely because of the 1 and 2 spots, no matter what Hendry tries to sell you this offseason. They sucked in the 4 or 5 spot (whichever one Burnitz was hitting from), and were an awful bottom of the order team as well. And they had absolutely no bench. They were a team full of 6 and 7 hitters.

 

which is why we shouldn't get bogged down in this "filling important holes in the lineup" rhetoric.

 

there are no holes in the lineup, we'll be batting 8 position players ahead of 1 pitcher come april. the problem is with overall organizational hitting philosophy. hendry's too busy hoping we'll all be dazzled by a big name like pierre and the proverbial hole he fills at leadoff to worry about hitting philosophy.

 

this lineup needs a healthy dose of OBP, not at a single position, but at all positions.

[anemic offense]

the cards still have the nucleus of edmonds, pujols, and rolen.

 

while we have aram and lee, it's not quite the same. the card lineup scores runs in it's sleep because their 3 main guys hit and get on base.

 

As good as the Cardinals nucleus has been I'd think you'd be surprised what their numbers would have been with this manager on last year's team. The Cards had better overall team speed while we had none. The Cards have LaRussa who is 3 times the manager Baker ever though of being. The Cards had a roster full of guys who could sacrifice, hit and run, and get on base. We had none. Again those three players are great players but some of what they are has been made by what's been around them. In contrast the Cubs have put forth the worst set of complimentary players in all of baseball. Lee, ARam, and Barret consistently produce, 1 guy is maybe average while the rest are so below average they bring evryone else down. How many of these guys have the Cardinals had? Point is some of their guys aren't great, but they don't bring the team down either. And I think their big dogs benefit (they also contribut to it to) from that.

[YearofDaCubs]

The reason our offense was horrible last year was because the OBP of or top two was like .300. That was what killed us.

 

What killed the offense was a lack of OBP almost everywhere, which was due to a lack of walks. It was not solely because of the 1 and 2 spots, no matter what Hendry tries to sell you this offseason. They sucked in the 4 or 5 spot (whichever one Burnitz was hitting from), and were an awful bottom of the order team as well. And they had absolutely no bench. They were a team full of 6 and 7 hitters.

 

which is why we shouldn't get bogged down in this "filling important holes in the lineup" rhetoric.

 

there are no holes in the lineup, we'll be batting 8 position players ahead of 1 pitcher come april. the problem is with overall organizational hitting philosophy. hendry's too busy hoping we'll all be dazzled by a big name like pierre and the proverbial hole he fills at leadoff to worry about hitting philosophy.

 

this lineup needs a healthy dose of OBP, not at a single position, but at all positions.

I have to agree. OBP should have been key this offseason. If Hendry pulls off some nice trades to improve the team I will gladly commend him for his job but we all are starting to realize this is not going to happen and JJones looks to be the future at RF. If we don't make the playoffs I would like to see Hendry and Baker fired on the spot. No more excuses.

[jmajew]

The reason our offense was horrible last year was because the OBP of or top two was like .300. That was what killed us.

 

What killed the offense was a lack of OBP almost everywhere, which was due to a lack of walks. It was not solely because of the 1 and 2 spots, no matter what Hendry tries to sell you this offseason. They sucked in the 4 or 5 spot (whichever one Burnitz was hitting from), and were an awful bottom of the order team as well. And they had absolutely no bench. They were a team full of 6 and 7 hitters.

 

which is why we shouldn't get bogged down in this "filling important holes in the lineup" rhetoric.

 

there are no holes in the lineup, we'll be batting 8 position players ahead of 1 pitcher come april. the problem is with overall organizational hitting philosophy. hendry's too busy hoping we'll all be dazzled by a big name like pierre and the proverbial hole he fills at leadoff to worry about hitting philosophy.

 

this lineup needs a healthy dose of OBP, not at a single position, but at all positions.

 

Starting line up as of now with OBP from last year

Pierre 326

Walker 355

Lee 418

Ramirez 358

Barrett 345

Murton 386

Cedeno 350

Patterson 254

 

Assuming Pierre bounces back to the 340-360 range we only ahve one weak spot in our order right now and that is RF. I would have to say our lineup is improved over last year. I don't know how anyone can deny that. The simple fact that we don't have Nefi and Corey or Hairston batting one two improves the lineup.

[Magnetic Curses]

the cards still have the nucleus of edmonds, pujols, and rolen.

 

while we have aram and lee, it's not quite the same. the card lineup scores runs in it's sleep because their 3 main guys hit and get on base.

 

As good as the Cardinals nucleus has been I'd think you'd be surprised what their numbers would have been with this manager on last year's team. The Cards had better overall team speed while we had none. The Cards have LaRussa who is 3 times the manager Baker ever though of being. The Cards had a roster full of guys who could sacrifice, hit and run, and get on base. We had none. Again those three players are great players but some of what they are has been made by what's been around them. In contrast the Cubs have put forth the worst set of complimentary players in all of baseball. Lee, ARam, and Barret consistently produce, 1 guy is maybe average while the rest are so below average they bring evryone else down. How many of these guys have the Cardinals had? Point is some of their guys aren't great, but they don't bring the team down either. And I think their big dogs benefit (they also contribut to it to) from that.

 

the cards success had nothing to do with sacrificing or hitting and running. they simply have 3 perrenial silver sluggers who take walks and hit the crap out of the ball.

[hawkeyecub]

The reason our offense was horrible last year was because the OBP of or top two was like .300. That was what killed us.

 

What killed the offense was a lack of OBP almost everywhere, which was due to a lack of walks. It was not solely because of the 1 and 2 spots, no matter what Hendry tries to sell you this offseason. They sucked in the 4 or 5 spot (whichever one Burnitz was hitting from), and were an awful bottom of the order team as well. And they had absolutely no bench. They were a team full of 6 and 7 hitters.

 

which is why we shouldn't get bogged down in this "filling important holes in the lineup" rhetoric.

 

there are no holes in the lineup, we'll be batting 8 position players ahead of 1 pitcher come april. the problem is with overall organizational hitting philosophy. hendry's too busy hoping we'll all be dazzled by a big name like pierre and the proverbial hole he fills at leadoff to worry about hitting philosophy.

 

this lineup needs a healthy dose of OBP, not at a single position, but at all positions.

 

Starting line up as of now with OBP from last year

Pierre 326

Walker 355

Lee 418

Ramirez 358

Barrett 345

Murton 386

Cedeno 350

Patterson 254

 

Assuming Pierre bounces back to the 340-360 range we only ahve one weak spot in our order right now and that is RF. I would have to say our lineup is improved over last year. I don't know how anyone can deny that. The simple fact that we don't have Nefi and Corey or Hairston batting one two improves the lineup.

 

You also can't ignore that there's virtually no chance that Lee, Murton and Cedeno put up OBP's of .418, .386 and .350 over a full season next year.

[Magnetic Curses]

The reason our offense was horrible last year was because the OBP of or top two was like .300. That was what killed us.

 

What killed the offense was a lack of OBP almost everywhere, which was due to a lack of walks. It was not solely because of the 1 and 2 spots, no matter what Hendry tries to sell you this offseason. They sucked in the 4 or 5 spot (whichever one Burnitz was hitting from), and were an awful bottom of the order team as well. And they had absolutely no bench. They were a team full of 6 and 7 hitters.

 

which is why we shouldn't get bogged down in this "filling important holes in the lineup" rhetoric.

 

there are no holes in the lineup, we'll be batting 8 position players ahead of 1 pitcher come april. the problem is with overall organizational hitting philosophy. hendry's too busy hoping we'll all be dazzled by a big name like pierre and the proverbial hole he fills at leadoff to worry about hitting philosophy.

 

this lineup needs a healthy dose of OBP, not at a single position, but at all positions.

 

Starting line up as of now with OBP from last year

Pierre 326

Walker 355

Lee 418

Ramirez 358

Barrett 345

Murton 386

Cedeno 350

Patterson 254

 

Assuming Pierre bounces back to the 340-360 range we only ahve one weak spot in our order right now and that is RF. I would have to say our lineup is improved over last year. I don't know how anyone can deny that. The simple fact that we don't have Nefi and Corey or Hairston batting one two improves the lineup.

 

we can't assume that

 

1. pierre will bounce back. his OBP is irrevocably tied to his BA, which is in turn irrevocably tied to hitting soft liners over the heads of the infield. not a lock by any standard.

 

2. murton and cedeno post similar OBP's. while murton and cedeno are more than acceptable at their positions granted that hendry acquires a huge bat in right. but the gamble is stupid if he just signs jacque jones. giles was available, he ignored him.

[anemic offense]

The reason our offense was horrible last year was because the OBP of or top two was like .300. That was what killed us.

 

What killed the offense was a lack of OBP almost everywhere, which was due to a lack of walks. It was not solely because of the 1 and 2 spots, no matter what Hendry tries to sell you this offseason. They sucked in the 4 or 5 spot (whichever one Burnitz was hitting from), and were an awful bottom of the order team as well. And they had absolutely no bench. They were a team full of 6 and 7 hitters.

 

which is why we shouldn't get bogged down in this "filling important holes in the lineup" rhetoric.

 

there are no holes in the lineup, we'll be batting 8 position players ahead of 1 pitcher come april. the problem is with overall organizational hitting philosophy. hendry's too busy hoping we'll all be dazzled by a big name like pierre and the proverbial hole he fills at leadoff to worry about hitting philosophy.

 

this lineup needs a healthy dose of OBP, not at a single position, but at all positions.

 

I don't know about that. Part of this team's problem isn't necessarily the amount of guys who have good OBPs as it is guys who have bad ones. Barrett, Lee, and Aram have all had pretty good to great OBP numbers the last few years. Todd's has been good. But after that we haven't even had guys who've been AVERAGE. Neifi?? Hah! KKKKPat? A joke. LF? A disaster til Murton got there. Backups? Substandard. Bernie was serviceable. Point is, when you have 3-4 players on the field everyday who are so below the NORM its mind boggling, they give the team NO CHANCE. Last year's team was the epitomy of this.

 

Now look at the good teams. Yes some of them are loaded with superstars, but how many guys do they have that bring them down? I guarantee you they don't have 3-4 in their lineup everyday. What I'm trying to say is we don't necessarily have to have great players at every position, just guys who can produce. If we even had average, not good, but average production from our offensive blackholes the last couple of year's (epecially last) this team would have been pretty good. IMO this is the key to the offseason. We don't necessarily need the Tejeda, Furcals, etc. etc., we just CAN'T have the repeat pathetic performances of '05. It may be askig a lot, but if you elevate our CF, LF, SS, and BP to average, plus add SP health this team will be good. Great? Probably not, though it could be if our stars have good years. But it would be good.

[jmajew]

The reason our offense was horrible last year was because the OBP of or top two was like .300. That was what killed us.

 

What killed the offense was a lack of OBP almost everywhere, which was due to a lack of walks. It was not solely because of the 1 and 2 spots, no matter what Hendry tries to sell you this offseason. They sucked in the 4 or 5 spot (whichever one Burnitz was hitting from), and were an awful bottom of the order team as well. And they had absolutely no bench. They were a team full of 6 and 7 hitters.

 

which is why we shouldn't get bogged down in this "filling important holes in the lineup" rhetoric.

 

there are no holes in the lineup, we'll be batting 8 position players ahead of 1 pitcher come april. the problem is with overall organizational hitting philosophy. hendry's too busy hoping we'll all be dazzled by a big name like pierre and the proverbial hole he fills at leadoff to worry about hitting philosophy.

 

this lineup needs a healthy dose of OBP, not at a single position, but at all positions.

 

Starting line up as of now with OBP from last year

Pierre 326

Walker 355

Lee 418

Ramirez 358

Barrett 345

Murton 386

Cedeno 350

Patterson 254

 

Assuming Pierre bounces back to the 340-360 range we only ahve one weak spot in our order right now and that is RF. I would have to say our lineup is improved over last year. I don't know how anyone can deny that. The simple fact that we don't have Nefi and Corey or Hairston batting one two improves the lineup.

 

You also can't ignore that there's virtually no chance that Lee, Murton and Cedeno put up OBP's of .418, .386 and .350 over a full season next year.

 

Fine give Lee 390 before he learned how to hit for average last year his OBP was still aroudn 380. Give Murton 360 he has had a great eye his entire minor league career and there is no way that will change now that he is in the majors. Then give Cedeno 330. That is still better than last year.

[CubfaninCA]

Hendry's going to get ripped apart regardless of what he does.

 

And whose fault is the current predicamant? You can blame the Tribune, but if Hendry would have had any foresight I'm sure he could have gotten an advance from the Tribune for Guerrero, Tejada, Drew, or any of the other FAs from the last couple of years. Now he has no options? We all know the possible Free Agent classes, and they only shrink. Hendry has no one to blame but himself if he's forced to sign Jones.

 

Advance from the Trib for Vlad, Tejada or Drew eh. Hard to argue with.

[jmajew]

The reason our offense was horrible last year was because the OBP of or top two was like .300. That was what killed us.

 

What killed the offense was a lack of OBP almost everywhere, which was due to a lack of walks. It was not solely because of the 1 and 2 spots, no matter what Hendry tries to sell you this offseason. They sucked in the 4 or 5 spot (whichever one Burnitz was hitting from), and were an awful bottom of the order team as well. And they had absolutely no bench. They were a team full of 6 and 7 hitters.

 

which is why we shouldn't get bogged down in this "filling important holes in the lineup" rhetoric.

 

there are no holes in the lineup, we'll be batting 8 position players ahead of 1 pitcher come april. the problem is with overall organizational hitting philosophy. hendry's too busy hoping we'll all be dazzled by a big name like pierre and the proverbial hole he fills at leadoff to worry about hitting philosophy.

 

this lineup needs a healthy dose of OBP, not at a single position, but at all positions.

 

I don't know about that. Part of this team's problem isn't necessarily the amount of guys who have good OBPs as it is guys who have bad ones. Barrett, Lee, and Aram have all had pretty good to great OBP numbers the last few years. Todd's has been good. But after that we haven't even had guys who've been AVERAGE. Neifi?? Hah! KKKKPat? A joke. LF? A disaster til Murton got there. Backups? Substandard. Bernie was serviceable. Point is, when you have 3-4 players on the field everyday who are so below the NORM its mind boggling, they give the team NO CHANCE. Last year's team was the epitomy of this.

 

Now look at the good teams. Yes some of them are loaded with superstars, but how many guys do they have that bring them down? I guarantee you they don't have 3-4 in their lineup everyday. What I'm trying to say is we don't necessarily have to have great players at every position, just guys who can produce. If we even had average, not good, but average production from our offensive blackholes the last couple of year's (epecially last) this team would have been pretty good. IMO this is the key to the offseason. We don't necessarily need the Tejeda, Furcals, etc. etc., we just CAN'T have the repeat pathetic performances of '05. It may be askig a lot, but if you elevate our CF, LF, SS, and BP to average, plus add SP health this team will be good. Great? Probably not, though it could be if our stars have good years. But it would be good.

 

I think what you are saying is right on. Our problem wasn't that we didn't have enough superstars it was that we filled the holes around our good players with players who had horrible OBP. If you can just get guys with OBP that are average in those positions, our lineup will be better. Which means that Murton, Cedeno, and Pierre will all be upgrades meaning our offense has gotten better this year. There is no possible way to say it didn't improve.

Edited December 20, 2005 by jmajew