Trade Idea: Swap Ramirez's With Boston?

[Wheelimus]

This might be nuts, heck, not sure I'd even pull the trigger, but here goes.

 

Cubs trade: Aramis Ramirez, Corey Patterson, and Neifi Perez

 

Red Sox trade: Manny Ramirez, Andy Marte, $

 

Red Sox get to swap All Stars with the Cubs, Cubs instantly refill ARam's position. Red Sox instantly fill thier lineup card, Aram to 3rd, Neifi to 2nd (hey, they're potentially LOSING OUT on A-Gone Part 2, they're down to Neifi levels), Corey to center.

 

Cons of course are potentially opening the 3rd base black hole worm.

 

Hmm, though I do wonder if Boston would pull the trigger without having an outfielder coming back. Perfaps expand it to include the devilrays moving Huff to the Red Sox or something...

[USSoccer]

Shifting Aramis' production to LF doesn't make us better. That's a lateral move. Instead of a hole in the OF, with a few possibilities in the FA market as well as via trade, you'd have a gaping hole at 3B with no options to fill it. And that doesn't even factor in ages, salaries, and positions played.

 

I'd rather have Encarnacion or Preston Wilson with Aramis knowing that Aramis is entering what should be a prime just as good as the prime Manny is leaving, than have an aging, petulant, expensive Manny plus a revolving door at 3B.

 

Bad. Idea.

Edited December 18, 2005 by USSoccer

[TrueBlueCubFan]

Boston already has Lowell

&

Can Neifi be traded before June 1st?

[wilk]

And they traded Renteria for Marte. They could have included Tampa and got Lugo plussome, but they instead chose to keep Marte. There's no way Marte would be included even if the unlikely scenario of swaping Ramirez's were to take form. Patterson and Neifi for Marte? Nope!

[Wheelimus]

I never said it was a good idea, but it's more fun to think of crap like this than bang your head on the keyboard because nothing is going on and it's killing you (news...must have news...reassure me that Cubs aren't a sinking ship...heh).

 

Disagree that we'd have a hole at 3rd though, Marte is going to be a special player. And I realize the odds of him being moved are low, but I guess it depends how badly the Sox want Manny took care of.

[Kingmanarama]

Disagree that we'd have a hole at 3rd though, Marte is going to be a special player. And I realize the odds of him being moved are low, but I guess it depends how badly the Sox want Manny took care of.

 

If you removed Patterson and Perez from that package (seriously...Neifi Perez?) and included Pie and Williams, then substituted Lowell for Marte, you might have something that Boston would consider.

 

It's going to take a lot to get Manny Ramirez. If Boston were really desperate to get rid of him, it would have happened already. I think they'll let him hold out. If he did, the team would save a bunch of money and fans everywhere would turn on Manny.

[Wheelimus]

Actually, I'd assume that the longer he holds out the more fans will call for Boston to just cut ties with him.

[Diffusion]

His offensive production isn't quite as prodigious, but Aramis is by far the more valuable trade-wise of the two Ramirez's. He's a lot younger, his contract isn't an onerous one, he plays a more important defensive position where offence is harder to come by, he's debatably the better teammate in terms of not always kicking up a fuss and demanding trades, and so on. The Red Sox would be making an absolute killing in a straight-up Manny for Aramis swap. Let's just establish that first.

[cbbryan]

Shifting Aramis' production to LF doesn't make us better. That's a lateral move. Instead of a hole in the OF, with a few possibilities in the FA market as well as via trade, you'd have a gaping hole at 3B with no options to fill it. And that doesn't even factor in ages, salaries, and positions played.

 

I'd rather have Encarnacion or Preston Wilson with Aramis knowing that Aramis is entering what should be a prime just as good as the prime Manny is leaving, than have an aging, petulant, expensive Manny plus a revolving door at 3B.

 

Bad. Idea.

 

 

I agree with your assessment. The Cubs need more production for the offense and while Manny would certainly put up more numbers then Aramis, it wouldn't be so much that the Cubs would be a greater team.

 

If the Cubs could get Manny without giving up Lee, or Aramis it would be the best case senario. Honestly, I think there would have to be a third team included in a trade w/ the Cubs and Sox.

[Roast]

Trade Idea: Swap Ramirez's With Boston

 

No thank you.

 

Aramis is:

-cheaper

-equal, maybe slightly better, defensively

-will (given the right protection) put up similar numbers

-Younger

-Not a problem maker

-a 3rd baseman, much harder of a position to find production in than RF

 

 

That being said, I'd love to have TWO ramirez's on this team...

[Kingmanarama]

His offensive production isn't quite as prodigious, but Aramis is by far the more valuable trade-wise of the two Ramirez's. He's a lot younger, his contract isn't an onerous one, he plays a more important defensive position where offence is harder to come by, he's debatably the better teammate in terms of not always kicking up a fuss and demanding trades, and so on. The Red Sox would be making an absolute killing in a straight-up Manny for Aramis swap. Let's just establish that first.

 

Manny hasn't posted an OPS+ below 140 since 1994, and he hasn't been below 150 since 1998; Aramis has never reached 140. No, his offensive production isn't quite as prodigious. I like Aramis a lot, but c'mon. And while he plays a more important defensive position, Aramis doesn't play it much better than Manny plays left. More significantly from Boston's perspective, Aramis doesn't play third as well as Marte.

 

I don't think Manny's contract is quite as onerous as it used to be, either. He has something like 3 years and $57M remaining on his deal. Eh. That seems just about right, actually, given recent free agent signings. His bad-teammatedness probably costs a couple runs each year, since he seems to sit out a game or two each season. Beyond that, I don't think it has a measurable impact.

 

Anyway, I really doubt that Boston would consider a Ramirez swap to be "an absolute killing." They would get worse in the short-term, and would be adding their third 3B of the offseason. They'd have to do something truly remarkable with the money saved, and this isn't really the free agent market in which to do it.

[CuseCubFan69]

Would Boston be interested in Pierre? I would trade Pierre, Walker, Williams, Cedeno and a prospect for Manny + cash.

 

Then go after Bradley or sign Lofton.

[Kingmanarama]

Would Boston be interested in Pierre?

 

Doubt it. It's been reported that Boston has asked about Jeremy Reed and Coco Crisp, though. If Damon signs elsewhere, Boston would apparently be willing to deal either Clement or Arroyo for a CF.

 

Also, if Aramis "is entering what should be a prime just as good as the prime Manny is leaving," that will mean that Aramis, like Manny, is one of the 10 best right-handed hitters of all time.

 

Let's hope that's true.

[USSoccer]

Would Boston be interested in Pierre?

 

Doubt it. It's been reported that Boston has asked about Jeremy Reed and Coco Crisp, though. If Damon signs elsewhere, Boston would apparently be willing to deal either Clement or Arroyo for a CF.

 

Also, if Aramis "is entering what should be a prime just as good as the prime Manny is leaving," that will mean that Aramis, like Manny, is one of the 10 best right-handed hitters of all time.

 

Let's hope that's true.

 

I don't have any doubts about Aramis's ability. I really, really think he has a chance to win an MVP award before this next contract is up.

[BigbadB]

Would Boston be interested in Pierre? I would trade Pierre, Walker, Williams, Cedeno and a prospect for Manny + cash.

 

Then go after Bradley or sign Lofton.

 

So, your middle infield would be Neifi Perez and Jerry Hairston with no back ups. Yuck!

[CardsFanInChiTown]

If I were the Cubs I'd trade the Aramis for Manny straight up. However, I doubt Boston would do the deal considering they have other 3rd base options.

[Diffusion]

Manny hasn't posted an OPS+ below 140 since 1994, and he hasn't been below 150 since 1998; Aramis has never reached 140.

 

That's great, but what matters is not past performance, but future performance. Aramis has established himself as something like a .310/.360/.570 hitter over the last two years, and he won't turn 28 until June. Manny Ramirez is something like a .300/.400/.600 hitter now, less away from Fenway and the ridiculously hitter friendly AL East, and his numbers have been slightly slipping for a while. At 34 in May, that trend is likely to continue, quite probably picking up pace.

 

And while he plays a more important defensive position, Aramis doesn't play it much better than Manny plays left.

 

He stills play it better, and, being further to the right of the defensive spectrum (DH-1B-LF-RF-3B-CF-2B-SS-C), that means he's a lot more valuable than Manny defensively, and his bat is a lot less easily replaced.

 

I don't think Manny's contract is quite as onerous as it used to be, either. He has something like 3 years and $57M remaining on his deal. Eh. That seems just about right, actually, given recent free agent signings.

 

Yeh right $57m/3yrs is "just about right". Why do you think the Red Sox are trying to move him? It's because he's hugely expensive: he's never been worth nearly $20m a year, isn't worth nearly $20m a year now and stands even less chance of being worth nearly $20m a year in three years' time.

 

Aramis Ramirez, for the record, has $33m/3yrs left on his deal. That's a difference of $24m/3yrs compared to Manny. That's an enormous amount of money, and you can do truly remarkable things with that amount, regardless of the state of the free agent market right now. $6m/3yrs more out of your own pocket and you could, theoretically, have had Brian Giles for that.

 

His bad-teammatedness probably costs a couple runs each year, since he seems to sit out a game or two each season. Beyond that, I don't think it has a measurable impact.

 

I'm not a big believer in team chemistry, but my real point is that if Manny Ramirez exercises his right to demand a trade, officially or otherwise, which he's much more likely to do than Aramis, he's going to cost you a lot more than just a few runs. Nobody wanted Manny when he was put on waivers about two years ago, nobody besides the Mets, maybe the Angels and dreamy fans want him now. Not much of a market, which is why Manny's still in Boston right now.

[Kingmanarama]

That's great, but what matters is not past performance, but future performance. Aramis has established himself as something like a .310/.360/.570 hitter over the last two years, and he won't turn 28 until June. Manny Ramirez is something like a .300/.400/.600 hitter now, less away from Fenway and the ridiculously hitter friendly AL East, and his numbers have been slightly slipping for a while. At 34 in May, that trend is likely to continue, quite probably picking up pace.

 

Obviously true. I'm not suggesting that Aramis won't get better. And Manny might never again be the hitter he was from '99-'03. But Manny is also one of the inner-circle all time great hitters, and I don't think it would be surprising if he matched last year's performance in his age 34, 35 and 36 seasons.

 

Also, the only year Aramis has ever reached a .310 AVG, .360 OBP, or a .570 SLG was 2004. (ducking) I realize he was very close to that line in 2005, too. We'll be fortunate if he maintains that level for the next three seasons. And, just to be clear: I like Aramis. Yay Aramis!

 

He stills play it better, and, being further to the right of the defensive spectrum (DH-1B-LF-RF-3B-CF-2B-SS-C), that means he's a lot more valuable than Manny defensively, and his bat is a lot less easily replaced.

 

...unless you're the Red Sox and you've just acquired Andy Marte. Boston isn't really a logical destination for Aramis Ramirez, unless the Red Sox intend to put Marte in left, Lowell at first, and deal Youkilis.

 

Yeh right $57m/3yrs is "just about right". Why do you think the Red Sox are trying to move him? It's because he's hugely expensive: he's never been worth nearly $20m a year, isn't worth nearly $20m a year now and stands even less chance of being worth nearly $20m a year in three years' time.

 

When the Red Sox placed Manny on waivers, Vlad and Tejada were available in free agency. Manny's money could have been reinvested unusually well. The same is not true right now. Today, I think the Red Sox are willing to move him because he's asked/demanded to be moved, and they can't/won't placate him again.

 

Yes, Manny's overpaid. He's also just about as good as it gets. In a market where Paul Konerko gets $65M/5Y offers, Manny's deal looks, um...less bad. It certainly looks better today, with only three seasons remaining and a bare free agent market, than it looked in 2003.

 

Aramis Ramirez, for the record, has $33m/3yrs left on his deal. That's a difference of $24m/3yrs compared to Manny. That's an enormous amount of money, and you can do truly remarkable things with that amount, regardless of the state of the free agent market right now. $6m/3yrs more out of your own pocket and you could, theoretically, have had Brian Giles for that.

 

Yes, that's a lot of money. A theoretical Brian Giles is better than no Brian Giles, I guess.

 

I do not trust Jim Hendry to do remarkable things with lots of money.

 

I'm not a big believer in team chemistry, but my real point is that if Manny Ramirez exercises his right to demand a trade, officially or otherwise, which he's much more likely to do than Aramis, he's going to cost you a lot more than just a few runs. Nobody wanted Manny when he was put on waivers about two years ago, nobody besides the Mets, maybe the Angels and dreamy fans want him now. Not much of a market, which is why Manny's still in Boston right now.

 

We have no idea what the market is today. We can be reasonably sure that the Mets, Angels, O's, and Diamondbacks have been involved in trade talks. The Yankees would probably be interested right now, too. Some smart team might deal for Manny, then flip him to the NYY for...well, I don't know what they have that I'd want, other than Sheffield.

Edited December 18, 2005 by Kingmanarama

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Aramis Ramirez, for the record, has $33m/3yrs left on his deal. That's a difference of $24m/3yrs compared to Manny.

 

Can't he opt out of his contract after next year?