Cubs Acquire Juan Pierre

[Careless]

Short answer:

 

Who is the better offensive player, Podsednik or Pierre?

 

Come on, no cheating. Did everyone have to consult the stats before they could answer Podsednik? Pierre's numbers have been considerably better, but because the Sox had such a great year last year with Scotty Pods at the top and Pods was the catalyst, people forget that his stats are inferior to Pierre's.

Pods has been widely bashed around here for being massively overrated, primarily by the same people who aren't hot on pierre

[Guest]

That's of little consolation when the player hits .129 on balls fielded by infielders. (As Pierre did on 2005.)

 

That stat's a bit confusing to me. What is the league average for balls fielded by infielders. My guess is if it's fielded, everyone's average would be quite low.

You're right. I'm merely pointing out that even if the high grass somehow helps Pierre beat out 25% more IF hits he's still only hitting .160. Besides, those extra hits will mostly come on balls that would otherwise have gotten to the OF on a faster IF for a much more guaranteed hit.

[Lefty]

For those of us still wondering, the MLB.com piece was posted at 1:30AM Chicago time. That would seem to me to be a reason to give credence to the fact that Mitre was included.

[ThePenguin11]

Short answer:

 

Who is the better offensive player, Podsednik or Pierre?

 

That question is tottally irrelavent unless the Cubs just traded for Podsednik.

 

Pierre is likely better than Patterson, but only fractionally better. Suppose he gets hit in the leg with a FB. He probably will not be on the DL so he may play every day. Untill his leg fully heals he has almost no value.

 

Suppose Derrek Lee gets hit in his bicep, how effective will he be? What if Barrett gets hit in the shoulder? Come on are you serious? You can't just throw out what-if's to support your arguement especially about a guy who doesn't get injured. Flawed argument.

[tgk]

.....

 

And let's not pretend that Pierre hasn't hit in front of good hitters before - Castillo, Cabrera, Delgado. Strangely, the runs didn't follow then. Pierre scored just 96 runs in 2005 despite playing everyday.....

 

To put this in perspective, that's only 4 runs scored behind Furcal and second best among national league leadoff hitters last year. :shock: As such, it's hard to fault his runs scored.

 

I would say that the 17 caught steals, along with the .326 OBP is why his run scoring wasn't where it should be.

 

I have a dumb question that I'm hoping someone can answer. Does getting picked off 1st base count towards Caught Stealing?

 

Yes

 

Actually, I don't believe that is correct. It is only a caught stealing if the runner makes a break for the next base.

 

I stand corrected. MLB rulebook 10.08

 

CAUGHT STEALING (h) A runner shall be charged as "Caught Stealing" if he is put out, or would have been put out by errorless play when he (1) Tries to steal. (2) Is picked off a base and tries to advance (any move toward the next base shall be considered an attempt to advance). (3) Overslides while stealing. NOTE: In those instances where a pitched ball eludes the catcher and the runner is put out trying to advance, no caught stealing shall be charged. No caught stealing should be charged when a runner is awarded a base due to obstruction.

 

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

 

It's been a few years since I've been the official scorer at a baseball game. My mistake. Guess I should have looked it up first. :oops:

[CubinNY]

My guess is that half of you don't even understand how to apply them.

 

My guess is you shouldn't throw blanket generalizations around and stick to the topic of the thread.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

You're right. I'm merely pointing out that even if the high grass somehow helps Pierre beat out 25% more IF hits he's still only hitting .160. Besides, those extra hits will mostly come on balls that would otherwise have gotten to the OF on a faster IF for a much more guaranteed hit.

 

Thanks. I had no idea such a stat existed, but then again, I see that quite often from you. :)

[Wheelimus]

look at the bright side, Pierre means that Neifi will never hit leadoff again...

 

And that is a GOOD thing :lol:

[hawkeyecub]

Short answer:

 

Who is the better offensive player, Podsednik or Pierre?

 

That question is tottally irrelavent unless the Cubs just traded for Podsednik.

 

Pierre is likely better than Patterson, but only fractionally better. Suppose he gets hit in the leg with a FB. He probably will not be on the DL so he may play every day. Untill his leg fully heals he has almost no value.

 

What? That's an absurd argument.

 

FWIW, Pierre has played 162 games in each of the last 3 seasons and in the previous two he played 156 and 152, so he's missed a total of 16 games over 5 years.

[Diffusion]

I like this deal. We got rid of two (or three) guys who haven't done anything to show that they'll be effective major league pitchers and in return got a solid leadoff hitter. Another good trade for JH.

 

To those of you who say that Pierre isn't a good hitter, get real. That's an absolutely absurd comment.

 

Really? .276/.326/.354 - that's not a "good hitter."

 

As predicted, the first response focused on last year. What about his career line? 305 average, 355 OBP. Also, are you aware that his career OPS in day games is .824? Juan Pierre is a good hitter.

 

How do you explain the .824 OPS in day games?

 

If you don't have an explanation, how do you know it will translate to day games in Wrigley?

 

And his career OBP when you take into account his caught stealings is .329. All of a sudden not so impressive.

 

And, while it's convenient for people to overlook this .329 stat because I've just made it up, still no-one has made a case for it being unjustified.

 

Some players see the ball better in day games - that appears to be the case with Pierre.

 

Seeing the ball better? You're going to need to elaborate. Does someone need to buy Pierre some night-vision goggles for Christmas?

 

I'm not saying it's unjustified, but you can't throw that .329 stat out there like it's authoritative. Pierre's running ability and decision to steal aren't the sole factors. Botched hit and runs, unseen pitch outs, etc. can all play a factor in a player getting caught stealing.

 

What does that change? He's still getting caught. And by getting caught, he's giving the hitters behind him just as much chance to drive him in as if he'd simply slapped his way into an out while still in the batter's box.

[BigbadB]

This entire thread is irritating. It's just a bunch of you guys trying to sound smarter than one another by spewing stats and formulas that you read one time on Baseball Prospectus. My guess is that half of you don't even understand how to apply them.

 

Is Pierre a flawed player? Absolutely.

 

He's not perfect. But he does do some nice things. And most importantly, he's a Cub now, and I'm going to root for him and hope that he rebounds and has a great year. You guys can go ahead keep stepping all over one another to sound like the smartest loon in the asylum. I've had enough.

 

It's called discussion. If you don't like discussion, feel free to stay out of them. But, most certainly stop with the generalizations and insults of other posters.

[Banedon]

Bruce, I see you're online, and probably reading through this thread I'm guessing...can you tell us where it's a 3 for 1 deal, or is Carrie Muskat right about Mitre not being included, and the Cubs getting a prospect?

[JeffH]

I'm sure Bruce will confirm that Mitre is included and Muskat is wrong (what a shock!).

[erik316wttn]

Does anyone know if Pierre caught that "wiggly feel"?

[frostwyrm]

Here is the chart for Pierre singles at Pro Player in 2005. Sure, he got infield singles, but the bulk were in the outfield. Taller grass isn't going to help him find the gaps.

 

http://www.butterfatmastermind.com/auctions/images/sempron/pierrehitchart.gif

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Seeing the ball better? You're going to need to elaborate. Does someone need to buy Pierre some night-vision goggles for Christmas?

 

Brian Roberts credited his new glare-reducing contact lenses as the reason for him "seeing the ball better". Not saying there's a lot to it, but his numbers took a pretty nice jump last year.

[Diffusion]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

[goonys evil twin]

look at the bright side, Pierre means that Neifi will never hit leadoff again...

 

And that is a GOOD thing :lol:

 

But will he still get 400+ at bats? Will he hit 2nd? Will he be an everyday guy if Walker is traded?

 

Neifi is still probably considered the backup leadoff man.

 

That's a bad thing.

[fromthestretch]

Actually, I don't believe that is correct. It is only a caught stealing if the runner makes a break for the next base.

 

I stand corrected. MLB rulebook 10.08

 

CAUGHT STEALING (h) A runner shall be charged as "Caught Stealing" if he is put out, or would have been put out by errorless play when he (1) Tries to steal. (2) Is picked off a base and tries to advance (any move toward the next base shall be considered an attempt to advance). (3) Overslides while stealing. NOTE: In those instances where a pitched ball eludes the catcher and the runner is put out trying to advance, no caught stealing shall be charged. No caught stealing should be charged when a runner is awarded a base due to obstruction.

 

http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

 

It's been a few years since I've been the official scorer at a baseball game. My mistake. Guess I should have looked it up first. :oops:

 

No worries.

[Mizzou]

I like this deal. We got rid of two (or three) guys who haven't done anything to show that they'll be effective major league pitchers and in return got a solid leadoff hitter. Another good trade for JH.

 

To those of you who say that Pierre isn't a good hitter, get real. That's an absolutely absurd comment.

 

Really? .276/.326/.354 - that's not a "good hitter."

 

As predicted, the first response focused on last year. What about his career line? 305 average, 355 OBP. Also, are you aware that his career OPS in day games is .824? Juan Pierre is a good hitter.

 

How do you explain the .824 OPS in day games?

 

If you don't have an explanation, how do you know it will translate to day games in Wrigley?

 

And his career OBP when you take into account his caught stealings is .329. All of a sudden not so impressive.

 

And, while it's convenient for people to overlook this .329 stat because I've just made it up, still no-one has made a case for it being unjustified.

 

Some players see the ball better in day games - that appears to be the case with Pierre.

 

Seeing the ball better? You're going to need to elaborate. Does someone need to buy Pierre some night-vision goggles for Christmas?

 

I'm not saying it's unjustified, but you can't throw that .329 stat out there like it's authoritative. Pierre's running ability and decision to steal aren't the sole factors. Botched hit and runs, unseen pitch outs, etc. can all play a factor in a player getting caught stealing.

 

What does that change? He's still getting caught. And by getting caught, he's giving the hitters behind him just as much chance to drive him in as if he'd simply slapped his way into an out while still in the batter's box.

 

I'm not sure I need to elaborate - I think that when I say "he sees the ball better" its pretty clear what I'm saying. Unless you have another explanation for the difference in his numbers in day games and night games, then I think that's the only explanation.

 

You're right, he's still getting caught - but what I meant was that it's not entirely his fault. If McKeon told him to run and the other team pitched out and nailed him, can you really fault Pierre for getting thrown out? What I'm saying is that, while not completely flawed, you can't just lower a guy's OBP for every time he gets thrown out at second base because it's not always his fault.

[CubinNY]

Short answer:

 

Who is the better offensive player, Podsednik or Pierre?

 

That question is tottally irrelavent unless the Cubs just traded for Podsednik.

 

Pierre is likely better than Patterson, but only fractionally better. Suppose he gets hit in the leg with a FB. He probably will not be on the DL so he may play every day. Untill his leg fully heals he has almost no value.

 

Suppose Derrek Lee gets hit in his bicep, how effective will he be? What if Barrett gets hit in the shoulder? Come on are you serious? You can't just throw out what-if's to support your arguement especially about a guy who doesn't get injured. Flawed argument.

 

Nope. The point is if Lee gets hit in the bicept he can still field the ball pretty well. If Barrett gets hit in the shoulder he can still hit.

 

If Slappy gets hit in the leg he cannot field b/c his entire defensive worth is wrapped up in his speed. He cannot bunt b/c slappy entire offensive worth is wrapped up in his speed. He cannot slap a single in the hole between SS and 3rd b/c his entire offensive worth is wrapped up in his foot speed. If he manages to take a walk he likely won't attempt to steal

 

If Slappy has a leg injury he has no value that is "nagging" but does not keep him out of the line up he has very little value. These nagging injuries do occur to every player. Just becasue someone is not on the DL doesn't also mean they are not injured. (See Carlos Beltran from 2005)

 

He is a one dimentional player take that dimension away and he is worthless.

[Tracer Bullet]

What was the biggest reason DLee and Co. couldn't drive in more runs for the Cubs:

 

Answer: There was never anyone on base.

 

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base.

 

This is a good move.

 

The reason no one was on base was Dusty's infatuation with speed at the top of the order - so he used CPatt and Neifi. It's not like we didn't have better options.

 

I'm really afraid that Pierre will have another .326 OBP year, but b/c he's fast, Dusty will keep playing him and hitting him in front of Lee.

[USSoccer]

What does Juan Pierre specialize in:

 

Answer: Getting on base and then getting caught stealing.

 

Fixed for you.

 

.329

 

Okay, I fell asleep, but now I'm up.

 

How do you know that Pierre will run as much as he did with the Marlins? Again, Baker isn't as aggressive as McKeon was. I'd be willing to bet that his attempts go down and his percentage goes up to about 75-80%.

[Diffusion]

This entire thread is irritating. It's just a bunch of you guys trying to sound smarter than one another by spewing stats and formulas that you read one time on Baseball Prospectus.

 

I read Baseball Prospectus about as often as I'm guessing you do.

 

Is Pierre a flawed player? Absolutely.

 

And does it not trouble you that we've just possibly traded three prospects for a one year rental of a flawed player?

 

And most importantly, he's a Cub now, and I'm going to root for him and hope that he rebounds and has a great year.

 

So if the Cubs acquired, say, the worst hitter in baseball history and decided to make him an everyday starter while paying him, say, $8.5m over 3 years, you wouldn't question the Cubs, but would limit yourself to rooting and cheering for him and the Cubs?

[Tracer Bullet]

This entire thread is irritating. It's just a bunch of you guys trying to sound smarter than one another by spewing stats and formulas that you read one time on Baseball Prospectus. My guess is that half of you don't even understand how to apply them.

 

Is Pierre a flawed player? Absolutely.

 

He's not perfect. But he does do some nice things. And most importantly, he's a Cub now, and I'm going to root for him and hope that he rebounds and has a great year. You guys can go ahead keep stepping all over one another to sound like the smartest loon in the asylum. I've had enough.

 

Why is an intelligent discussion from people who disagree about a particular subject such a bad thing?