Rcal10

By saying they shouldn’t go $500M for 10+ years you are basically saying they shouldn’t go after Ohtani. You can’t say they should go after him and then the next sentence say they shouldn’t go long years or crazy money. Getting Ohtani might not take $500M, but it will take either crazy long years or crazy annual salary and probably both.

How are they not built to win if they got Ohtani and added a few more pieces. They are the clear favorite in the central with those moves. To your way of thinking the only teams that should get premiere players are the Dodgers, Braves, Rangers and Astros. And that is just a ridiculous way to look at building a team. Cubs shouldn’t get the top guy until they win 90+ games for 3 straight years? I couldn’t disagree more with that thought.

Well if Ohtani signs this next week things can start happening. I thought he was wanting to get this done before the winter meeting. So that would be next week. There has been some activity, actually. 3 starting pitchers signed. A pen arm or two. Pretty typical for this time of year.

Did something happen or was something said for you to say this? Or do you just think nothing will happen until the winter meetings?

As I said, I don’t know if it will be $500M. But I do know whatever the contract is there will be a good portion of people suggesting it is crazy for a team to make the deal they made. Fact is, to get a super star FA you have to go to a level that is behind a lot of people’s comfort. My guess is whoever gets Ohtani you will think for him on a ridiculous contract. He isn’t going to a team on a 6 year $250M contract.

I’m not sure we differ when it comes to what we think the team should do in regards to their budget. I feel as a large market team they should always be pushing the envelope. It is the only advantage they have. The rest of the advantages are for the small markets. So they need to spend to take advantage of their only advantage. That said, I am just talking about spending within the structure the Cubs ownership put in place. Cubs ownership doesn’t share my belief. They will manipulate the payroll and use it to not spend freely at some other time. So that brings us back to “smart spending” within the self imposed restraints the ownership puts on the team. If they get Ohtani or trade for Soto and then extend him they better have some young talent in the way up to negate the huge contract they have for that player. Because, IMO they will not constantly play over the LT. And I think this is what will get all the people who worry about that sort of stuff uncomfortable.

Yep. And in theory of smart spending does make sense. Every team wants contacts that fit the players. And you can shop for some free agents and get solid deals. But you are never going to get the superstar player without giving him a contract that is not really sensible at some point of the deal.

Look at his stats. He was basically the same player when he retired as he was when he started. A guy who was right aeousb league average. He was an ok player. Nothing more. And neve more.

Yep. I think some people misremember him. He didn’t ever really change. No one tried changing him. Hell, his 5th year with the Cubs he has his highest Ops+, and that was only 115. He was a decent ballplayer who had a decent xaeeee, period. No one ruined him. He just never developed behind his first year. He was always an average hitter. Which is a fine career.

Castro was nothing like Vitters or Heyward. Vitters was just not good, period. Castro was a decent hitter but not a hard worker. That is what cost him. Heyward was a hard worker but his swing always sucked. They are all totally different players who failed all for different reasons. And, IMO none failed because of hitting gurus messing with them.

I agreed with you all the way until the Bonilla comment. I don’t expect anything like that. But I do think whoever gets him will have a portion of their fan base very critical of the deal. The “smart spending” people will not like it.

That is my point. It might be north of $500M. I don’t think it is forgone conclusion that it will be, though. What is better, 8/$384, 10/$450 or 13/$500? He may only want to play 8 more years. No one really knows what he wants. It also could come down to how a contract is structured. I think opt out will be big in any deal he makes. I also think it won’t be all about money. So to assume it will take over $500M is not something I can do.

I think the response was sarcastic too!

Do they have to be north of $500M? I would have said that before the injury. I am not sure that is the case now. I honestly think there has already been an offer or it will come before the winter meeting. I am not sure it will be over $500M.

I wouldn’t trade him either. But if he does regress to a 3, now would be the time to get the most value from him. I don’t agree he will regress and his ceiling is a 3, however. If I thought of him as thawv does then I would agree he should be moved now.

So results don’t matter to you? The second half of 22 and all of 23 he pitched as good an anyone in baseball. His results were that of a TOR starter. Again, he has already pitched higher than the ceiling you have for him.

I underwent your POV. I also respect it and respect the discussion. And you may very well be right. I just choose to see what happens this off season. If the Cubs coaches can make a noodle arm 2nd baseman into a solid 3rd baseman, I just can’t close the book on then making Morel serviceable. But if they can’t they do need to trade him.

But you can explain that too, if you need to. They put Madrigal there because they were trying to build his trade value. Then when Morel came up, the Cubs got surprisingly solid defense at 3rd from Madrigal and they needed a bat. So they let Morel DH. He did well there so they left him there. Maybe all other 3rd baseman on the 23’ roster were better defensively then him. Maybe they didn’t want to mess with him during the year. So they played the others at third and left him as DH. I am not arguing he will be the 3rd baseman next year. I am disagreeing on the narrative that the Cubs have closed the books on him there.

And I am choosing not to make assumptions.

How can his ceiling be a #3 when he pitcher like a #1 for 1 1/2 years now?

Again, people pick what they want to make their case. Jed actually said he thought it was a good idea for him to get work at first because they already know he can play 2nd and 3rd. So that was a mention of him at 3rd. I admit, I am picking what I want to make my case. The difference is I am not saying he will play 3rd. I am just saying I do not agree the book is closed.

But it works in the trade simulator🤮

But why does it have to be DH. Why can’t he coexist with Soto or Ohtani and play 3rd. I think those who suggest he is being undervalued really are suggesting him at 3rd shouldn’t be closed. Not suggesting they aren’t getting enough in a trade for him. As I have said often, I am fine with them dealing him. They just need fair value. I haven’t seen anyone suggest he should be traded for a below average player. I don’t think anyone who wants to traded him has suggested he is not valuable. But they have closed the book on 3rd base for him. And that is what I disagree with.

I think fans create narratives and then argue as if they are facts. And then they only choose examples to make their case and leave any other options out. I think that is what has happened with Morel. Those who want to suggest Morel came up and didn’t play 3rd are not wrong. That did happen. It is when we get into reasons why he didn’t that we start assuming. My version of assuming goes like this. In spring, maybe the Cubs wanted to boost Madrigal’s stock so they played him at 3rd. They send Morel down and let him play 3rd in the minors. Then, when they brought Morel up they had options at 3rd. He was hitting at DH so they left him there. Maybe, had DH been filled by someone I hope fills it this year, Morel would have played 3rd. People want to point to the Cubs agreeing to let Morel play 1st in the DR. They say that is a sign they are still looking for position for him. They use Jed’s words when he says it is good for him to get exposure there too. But they leave out Jed also saying “we know he can play 2nd and 3rd” because that doesn’t fit their narrative. While I agree the Cubs may have some concerns about Morel at 3rd and I even agree it isn’t his best position. I don’t agree the Cubs have closed the book on that idea. I also think that if the Cubs did get a stud DH they wouldn’t necessarily have to trade Morel. If DH isn’t an option they just might put him at 3rd and take uneven play there. All that said, for the right deal(controlled starting pitcher-MOR) I can see him traded. I just don’t think he has to be.

I do understand using Morel as a trade chip IF they get quality back. But I don’t rule him out as the 3rd baseman to start the year. Sure, 180 innings in the majors hasn’t been great. That amounts to 20 games. I am not willing to write him off as a 3rd baseman after 20 games. All we need to do is look at Wisdom. He was decent one year and sucked the next. Maybe we are seeing Morel at his worst. Maybe with work this spring he could be adequate. Even slightly below adequate isn’t awful if he hits. If they don’t get real value for him I would be perfectly fine with him on the team and at 3rd base. Maybe he can’t do it. Maybe that is why they didn’t put him there last year. If that is true I believe they will trade him. But if he can convince the coaching staff he could play 3rd this off season it would be a huge win for the team because they can fill that position cheaply and use prospects to fill another hole, not a productive ML hitter.