Wish we thought this way...

[gerby23]

And by we, I mean the Cubs organization, not us. WE DO think this way, at least most of us I think.

This is from BIll "Red Sox" Simmons' newest Page 2 article discussing the Sox-Marlins proposed trade:

I didn't mind giving up highly regarded shortstop prospect Hanley Ramirez in the trade, and here's why: If they thought so highly of him, why sign Edgar Renteria last winter? If you had a stud rookie in your system, someone everyone felt couldn't possibly miss, would you shell out big bucks and a four-year deal for a veteran who played that same position? Of course not. I'm guessing the kid had a ton of potential, only they felt something was missing. So they sold while his stock was high

Full article, he discusses more about prospects and potential and its pretty funny:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/051122

 

How many times have we had THE prospect, can't miss, and we don't pull the trigger on a deal and the prospect misses? I'm with Bill, get a known commodity for potential nine times outta ten, please.

Cubbie from TX in AR

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Well, Hanley Ramirez was 2+ years away from the big leagues at that time.

[mg420]

and what if beckett gets hurt or tanks in boston & hanley and/or little pedro become stars for the marlins? the marlins will look like genuises and the bo sox will look like suckers. hindsight is always 20-20. right now it looks like the bo sox won big time in that trade but only time will tell if they did or not.

[rawaction]

and what if beckett gets hurt or tanks in boston & hanley and/or little pedro become stars for the marlins? the marlins will look like genuises and the bo sox will look like suckers. hindsight is always 20-20. right now it looks like the bo sox won big time in that trade but only time will tell if they did or not.

 

Complete failure or not, it was a good trade for the RedSox.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

and what if beckett gets hurt or tanks in boston & hanley and/or little pedro become stars for the marlins? the marlins will look like genuises and the bo sox will look like suckers. hindsight is always 20-20. right now it looks like the bo sox won big time in that trade but only time will tell if they did or not.

 

Complete failure or not, it was a good trade for the RedSox.

 

I agree, given the information the Sox have in the present I think they made the right choice no matter what happens 2-3 years from now.

[gerby23]

and what if beckett gets hurt or tanks in boston & hanley and/or little pedro become stars for the marlins? the marlins will look like genuises and the bo sox will look like suckers. hindsight is always 20-20. right now it looks like the bo sox won big time in that trade but only time will tell if they did or not.

That is the whole point; you can what if all you want, but I would rather give up prospective talent to receive proven talent. If it bites you in the butt later, oh well, at least you took a chance. I hate hearing that Hendry won't even listen to GM's that mention Pie or Hill. WHY?!? What would it hurt to listen. I have a theory that Hendry doesn't like to deal with GMs that he thinks are smarter than him; he likes to think he took advantage of someone-jmo.

Cubbie in AR from TX

[rocket]

This isn't a response to this article in particular, but Bill Simmons as a whole.

 

His baseball analysis has never impressed me.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

This isn't a response to this article in particular, but Bill Simmons as a whole.

 

His baseball analysis has never impressed me.

 

It hurts my brain.

[cjbucks]

I'm just trying to imagine the brouhaha on this board if we traded prospects in part for a 3B who makes 9 mil and had an ops of 658 last year when we already had an 800 ops guy who made 2.5 million last year.

 

Wow!

[goonys evil twin]

This isn't a response to this article in particular, but Bill Simmons as a whole.

 

His baseball analysis has never impressed me.

 

It hurts my brain.

 

He's such a reactionary conventional wisdom type of fan. All of his analysis is of the postgame type, saying things like "after X happened, you just knew they were going to win." On one hand he was always wrote rationally about the foolishness of believing in the curse, but then all of his analysis is based on emotions (you just look at a guy like that and you know he won't help you win). He did a 180 on Clement, going from 100% support and excitement to total distrust, initially blaming the ball to the face, then the pressures of Boston, and completely ignored that Clement is just pitching like Clement pitches.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm just trying to imagine the brouhaha on this board if we traded prospects in part for a 3B who makes 9 mil and had an ops of 658 last year when we already had an 800 ops guy who made 2.5 million last year.

 

Wow!

 

You are missing a big piece here. They traded for Lowell, in part, must it was only a small part. They traded for Beckett and took on Lowell's salary, kind of like how the Cubs traded for Alfonseca and took on Clement's salary, or traded for Lofton and took on Ramirez's salary.

[cjbucks]

I'm just trying to imagine the brouhaha on this board if we traded prospects in part for a 3B who makes 9 mil and had an ops of 658 last year when we already had an 800 ops guy who made 2.5 million last year.

 

Wow!

 

You are missing a big piece here. They traded for Lowell, in part, must it was only a small part. They traded for Beckett and took on Lowell's salary, kind of like how the Cubs traded for Alfonseca and took on Clement's salary, or traded for Lofton and took on Ramirez's salary.

 

I'm not missing anything - I'm not even saying it was a bad deal for Bosox - I'm just saying that 9 mil is a lot of money for someone who sucked as bad as Lowell did last year. Hopefully for them Beckett will make the deal worth it. I'm also saying that if Hendry spent 9 mil for a similiar player in a similiar situation we would be hanging him in effigy ( so to speak) on this board today.

[mg420]

the clement/alfo for willis trade looked good for the cubs when it happened too. i can safely say that not many cubs fans would say today that it was a good trade.

[mg420]

and what if beckett gets hurt or tanks in boston & hanley and/or little pedro become stars for the marlins? the marlins will look like genuises and the bo sox will look like suckers. hindsight is always 20-20. right now it looks like the bo sox won big time in that trade but only time will tell if they did or not.

That is the whole point; you can what if all you want, but I would rather give up prospective talent to receive proven talent. If it bites you in the butt later, oh well, at least you took a chance. I hate hearing that Hendry won't even listen to GM's that mention Pie or Hill. WHY?!? What would it hurt to listen. I have a theory that Hendry doesn't like to deal with GMs that he thinks are smarter than him; he likes to think he took advantage of someone-jmo.

Cubbie in AR from TX

 

isnt it a GM's job to what if? it is when they dont that they arent doing their job imo. it is also my opinion that being a gm is not as easy as alot of people on this board think it is. its a complicated business not a grocery store where you can pick and choose which players you want and build the perfect team. why dont the people who blast hendry for every little thing he does quit their day jobs & make a living at roto leauge baseball if they are so superior to professional major leauge gm's?

[abuck1220]

not saying that anybody in this thread is doing this, but it seems like the same people who say 'who cares about prospects, trade for proven commidities' are the same people who ride the cubs for trading willis, the red sox for trading bagwell, etc.

[goonys evil twin]

I'm just trying to imagine the brouhaha on this board if we traded prospects in part for a 3B who makes 9 mil and had an ops of 658 last year when we already had an 800 ops guy who made 2.5 million last year.

 

Wow!

 

You are missing a big piece here. They traded for Lowell, in part, must it was only a small part. They traded for Beckett and took on Lowell's salary, kind of like how the Cubs traded for Alfonseca and took on Clement's salary, or traded for Lofton and took on Ramirez's salary.

 

I'm not missing anything - I'm not even saying it was a bad deal for Bosox - I'm just saying that 9 mil is a lot of money for someone who sucked as bad as Lowell did last year. Hopefully for them Beckett will make the deal worth it. I'm also saying that if Hendry spent 9 mil for a similiar player in a similiar situation we would be hanging him in effigy ( so to speak) on this board today.

 

Not necessarily.

 

The trade was for Becket, they gave up a prospect at a position they have filled, and they were desperate for starting pitching. Flip it around to fit the Cubs, imagine they traded for an extremely talented young former World Series MVP RF who was not going to be a free agent for a couple years, but he had to take on a bad contract for a starting pitcher coming off a bad year. But that starting pitcher had always been good before last year. Now, let's just say the prospect he gave up was Pie and a pitching prospect, but he already had Pierre for CF. That would be a similar scenario.

 

Boston desperately need starting pitching but were fine in the hitting department, and had money to spend. So they found that pitcher, took on a formerly good hitter who probably isn't completely done yet and traded a position prospect from a filled position.

 

The Cubs are desperate for RF help, but have a lot of pitching and had money to spend. They found that RF, took on a formerly good pitcher who probably isn't completely done yet, and traded a position prospect from a filled position.

 

This isn't a perfect match, but imagine the Cubs had Pierre, then trade Pie and a pitching prospect for Abreu/Burrell and Lieber/Padilla. Would we really hang him?

[Backtobanks]

Well, Hanley Ramirez was 2+ years away from the big leagues at that time.

 

And when the prospect is ready to play in the majors, you could trade Renteria.

[CubinNY]

Flip it around to fit the Cubs, imagine they traded for an extremely talented young former World Series MVP RF who was not going to be a free agent for a couple years, but he had to take on a bad contract for a starting pitcher coming off a bad year.

 

I'll take Adam Dunn and Eric Milton please.

[goonys evil twin]

Flip it around to fit the Cubs, imagine they traded for an extremely talented young former World Series MVP RF who was not going to be a free agent for a couple years, but he had to take on a bad contract for a starting pitcher coming off a bad year.

 

I'll take Adam Dunn and Eric Milton please.

 

That's a pretty good analogy.

[cjbucks]

Flip it around to fit the Cubs, imagine they traded for an extremely talented young former World Series MVP RF who was not going to be a free agent for a couple years, but he had to take on a bad contract for a starting pitcher coming off a bad year.

 

I'll take Adam Dunn and Eric Milton please.

 

That's a pretty good analogy.

 

I'd take that deal also, I'm not sure what Milton is due this year but he made 5.3 mil last year - I'm just basing my thoughts on the fact that we have 31 pages on a possible ( looks probable now ) signing of a 3-4 mil pitcher who had a pretty decent year last year. That seems like a lot of money also but I guess that is the cost of Dusty proofing the bullpen.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Some people seem to think the Marlins lost b/c they didn't get "equal value." They're not trying to acquire players to help them now. They're getting players that will contribute for years at the league minimum.

 

I might actually like the Marlins now that they're not buying a team.

[gerby23]

and what if beckett gets hurt or tanks in boston & hanley and/or little pedro become stars for the marlins? the marlins will look like genuises and the bo sox will look like suckers. hindsight is always 20-20. right now it looks like the bo sox won big time in that trade but only time will tell if they did or not.

That is the whole point; you can what if all you want, but I would rather give up prospective talent to receive proven talent. If it bites you in the butt later, oh well, at least you took a chance. I hate hearing that Hendry won't even listen to GM's that mention Pie or Hill. WHY?!? What would it hurt to listen. I have a theory that Hendry doesn't like to deal with GMs that he thinks are smarter than him; he likes to think he took advantage of someone-jmo.

Cubbie in AR from TX

 

isnt it a GM's job to what if? it is when they dont that they arent doing their job imo. it is also my opinion that being a gm is not as easy as alot of people on this board think it is. its a complicated business not a grocery store where you can pick and choose which players you want and build the perfect team. why dont the people who blast hendry for every little thing he does quit their day jobs & make a living at roto leauge baseball if they are so superior to professional major leauge gm's?

You are correct. It is a Gms job to do so. I am not a poster who jumps every players bandwagon or jumps off. I am just a Cubs fan who thinks it is ridiculous to not hear out other Gms when it comes to Hill (very limited ML exp.) or Pie (none)

That is my point.

Also, I don't think Simmons is a great analyst for any sport; I think he is a funny journalist.

Cubbie from TX in AR

[CubfaninCA]

Interesting that Hanley Ramirez still has high trade value after the signing of Renteria considering that Hendry's signings of Howry and Eyre has killed all the value of Novoa, Ohman, Mitre, Wellemeyer, etc..

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Interesting that Hanley Ramirez still has high trade value after the signing of Renteria considering that Hendry's signings of Howry and Eyre has killed all the value of Novoa, Ohman, Mitre, Wellemeyer, etc..

 

Hanley Ramirez is far more talented than Novoa, Ohman, Mitre, Wellemeyer, etc...

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Interesting that Hanley Ramirez still has high trade value after the signing of Renteria considering that Hendry's signings of Howry and Eyre has killed all the value of Novoa, Ohman, Mitre, Wellemeyer, etc..

 

Hanley Ramirez is far more talented than Novoa, Ohman, Mitre, Wellemeyer, etc...

 

Also, Ramirez had never been above AA when Renteria signed. The Cubs relievers have all been in the bigs when Eyre and Howry signed.