To Pie Or Not To Pie...

[Wheelimus]

Thing is, giving him up is a classic Cub move, sell the future for the short term. We have a glut of pitching. EVERYBODY needs pitching. Make that work and hold onto your potential future all star.

 

I mean, the kid is 20, give him a few more years to develop that discipline.

[DivineBovine]

If Pie can get us a top caliber proven bat, then I'd trade him. He hasn't shown me he's a can't miss. All he really is now is a prospect with potential. And his K/BB ratio really does bother me. He could very easily be a flop, like so many other top tier Cub offensive prospects in recent years.

 

If the deal was right for Abreu, I'd do it and not think twice about it.

 

there is no such thing as a cant miss imo. his .903 ops in AA at 20 years old along with his gold glove fielding however is indicative of very good (if not great) things to come if he can improve his plate discipline.

 

how many ABs did he have last year?

 

240. not alot i know but he is very young for aa and put up some great #'s for his 1st time around. with pie, ep, marshall, gahllager, marmol, pinto & nolasco (unless they start at AAA), the double a team looks to be a very exciting one imo.

 

Agreed that there's no such thing as a can't miss. Consider me in the group that feels Pie is overhyped. His plate discipline really bugs me, but maybe I'm wary of toolsy CF types with bad plate discipline. Bad plate discipline gets eaten alive in the majors. It's one thing if a guy doesn't walk because he's good enough to hit bad pitches (Aramis Ramirez), but to have a guy who doesn't walk because he's swinging and missing is bad news.

 

Really, .903 OPS in 240 AB's for one year doesn't do all that much for me, espcially considering his plate discipline and his previous experience. This is not to say he won't be great, but for Abreu? No brainer.

[waffle]

I get to watch Abreu alot (I live in Philly). Do you realize he is a 30/30 guy? Has a very good arm? Gets on base like a leadoff man? He's a bit of an adventure out in the OF, but I think he deserves a little more love then he gets in Philly.

 

He'd fit in very well in Chitown I think...

[RynoRules]

No thanks. I don't want Abreu.

 

I've probably missed it, but based on your stance on a couple other players, I have to ask... who exactly DO you want?

 

Adam Dunn

Wilkerson

Bradley

Marcus Giles

Coco Crisp

 

pitchers:

zito/burnett/beckett (i.e. another front line starter)

howry

 

I realize we're probably not going to get any of these players.

 

So you would rather have Wilkerson, Bradley or Crisp over Abreu? I think this is proof that some players gain momentum on this bd without really deserving it.

 

Here's a Wilkerson v. Abreu comparison:

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/a/abreubo01.shtml

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/w/wilkebr01.shtml

 

For those of you who don't feel like opening the links:

 

Abreu's OBP has been over .400 six of the last seven years.

 

Wilkerson's career high OBP is .380, and that was in 2003.

[UK1679666180]

No thanks. I don't want Abreu.

 

I've probably missed it, but based on your stance on a couple other players, I have to ask... who exactly DO you want?

 

Adam Dunn

Wilkerson

Bradley

Marcus Giles

Coco Crisp

 

pitchers:

zito/burnett/beckett (i.e. another front line starter)

howry

 

I realize we're probably not going to get any of these players.

 

So you would rather have Wilkerson, Bradley or Crisp over Abreu? I think this is proof that some players gain momentum on this bd without really deserving it.

 

Here's a Wilkerson v. Abreu comparison:

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/a/abreubo01.shtml

 

http://www.baseballreference.com/w/wilkebr01.shtml

 

For those of you who don't feel like opening the links:

 

Abreu's OBP has been over .400 six of the last seven years.

 

Wilkerson's career high OBP is .380, and that was in 2003.

 

Are you talking about straight-up or does their contracts factor into the decision? Abreu's contract is a negative as far as whether to go after him compared to Wilkerson, Bradley, Crisp, etc..

[RynoRules]

I am talking straight production.

 

And BTW, for those of you interested, guess who baseballreference.com says has the most similar stats to Abreu (in the history of baseball)...

[UK1679666180]

I am talking straight production.

 

And BTW, for those of you interested, guess who baseballreference.com says has the most similar stats to Abreu (in the history of baseball)...

 

What if he factored Abreu's contract into the equation? Would it still be proof of players gaining momentum?

[goonys evil twin]

I am talking straight production.

 

And BTW, for those of you interested, guess who baseballreference.com says has the most similar stats to Abreu (in the history of baseball)...

 

What if he factored Abreu's contract into the equation? Would it still be proof of players gaining momentum?

 

With only 2 years on the deal, it's pretty difficult to justify knocking Abreu down the list of potential candidates. The one thing the Cubs have going in their favor is the money they have to spend. If Abreu was a free agent and was willing to sign for 2/30 right now, I'd be on that deal in a heartbeat, an that club option in 2008 also gives the team a chance to keep him for three years without risking a longterm deal in his late 30's.

 

I started this Abreu talk months ago, and I'm extremely happy that it's picked up some steam this offseason. From a baseball standpoint it doesn't make sense for Philly to trade him, but they are in a "we need to change what we're doing mode" and might just be willing to go in another direction by trading Abreu. There's not one prospect in the system that I'd refuse to deal for Abreu. And if you know my history of prospect love that means a lot.

[hawkeyecub]

I am talking straight production.

 

And BTW, for those of you interested, guess who baseballreference.com says has the most similar stats to Abreu (in the history of baseball)...

 

What if he factored Abreu's contract into the equation? Would it still be proof of players gaining momentum?

 

With only 2 years on the deal, it's pretty difficult to justify knocking Abreu down the list of potential candidates. The one thing the Cubs have going in their favor is the money they have to spend. If Abreu was a free agent and was willing to sign for 2/30 right now, I'd be on that deal in a heartbeat, an that club option in 2008 also gives the team a chance to keep him for three years without risking a longterm deal in his late 30's.

 

I started this Abreu talk months ago, and I'm extremely happy that it's picked up some steam this offseason. From a baseball standpoint it doesn't make sense for Philly to trade him, but they are in a "we need to change what we're doing mode" and might just be willing to go in another direction by trading Abreu. There's not one prospect in the system that I'd refuse to deal for Abreu. And if you know my history of prospect love that means a lot.

 

Couldn't agree more.

We don't need to save money and go cheap in RF. He isn't cheap, but I also don't think he's overpaid. Like you said if he was a free agent and we were talking about a 2/30 with a club option, it would be a great deal. He'll only be 33 when the two years are up.

 

Obviously the fact that we would have to give up players to acquire him in a trade is a negative, but I don't think we would have to give up a king's ransom for Bobby.

Last year he put up a .286/.405/.474 line and it was almost the poorest season of his career. At the age of 31 I don't think the decline was caused by age, he just had a dreadful second half which a lot of people attributed to the home run derby.

In 2004 he hit .301/.428/.544 and was 40/45 in stolen bases.

[Jehrico]

I am talking straight production.

 

And BTW, for those of you interested, guess who baseballreference.com says has the most similar stats to Abreu (in the history of baseball)...

LMAO...I didn't know TB claimed him in the expansion draft, then promptly traded him to Philly for....Kevin Stocker....That's about on par with the Lou Brock trade for us.

[rawaction]

I am talking straight production.

 

And BTW, for those of you interested, guess who baseballreference.com says has the most similar stats to Abreu (in the history of baseball)...

 

What if he factored Abreu's contract into the equation? Would it still be proof of players gaining momentum?

 

With only 2 years on the deal, it's pretty difficult to justify knocking Abreu down the list of potential candidates. The one thing the Cubs have going in their favor is the money they have to spend. If Abreu was a free agent and was willing to sign for 2/30 right now, I'd be on that deal in a heartbeat, an that club option in 2008 also gives the team a chance to keep him for three years without risking a longterm deal in his late 30's.

 

I started this Abreu talk months ago, and I'm extremely happy that it's picked up some steam this offseason. From a baseball standpoint it doesn't make sense for Philly to trade him, but they are in a "we need to change what we're doing mode" and might just be willing to go in another direction by trading Abreu. There's not one prospect in the system that I'd refuse to deal for Abreu. And if you know my history of prospect love that means a lot.

 

Couldn't agree more.

We don't need to save money and go cheap in RF. He isn't cheap, but I also don't think he's overpaid. Like you said if he was a free agent and we were talking about a 2/30 with a club option, it would be a great deal. He'll only be 33 when the two years are up.

 

Obviously the fact that we would have to give up players to acquire him in a trade is a negative, but I don't think we would have to give up a king's ransom for Bobby.

Last year he put up a .286/.405/.474 line and it was almost the poorest season of his career. At the age of 31 I don't think the decline was caused by age, he just had a dreadful second half which a lot of people attributed to the home run derby.

In 2004 he hit .301/.428/.544 and was 40/45 in stolen bases.

 

I'd give up Felix for Abreu too. I think he has at least 2 more years of .900 OPS baseball left in him.

[Lefty]

i guess people didnt read the blurb about hendry turning away when other clubs inquire about pie or hill. they aint going anywhere and certainly not both for abreu. a silly trade proposal imo and one that hendry wouldnt consider for a second.

 

What is the fascination with Rich Hill?

 

With a thin free-agent market the Cubs' best bet is to take on salary in the spirit of 'Choi for Lee.' Lee was 4 years younger than Abreu, though.

 

Pie for Vernon Wells anybody?

[1908]

Really, .903 OPS in 240 AB's for one year doesn't do all that much for me, espcially considering his plate discipline and his previous experience.

I think you're underestimating how impressive a 903 OPS for a 20-year-old at AA is.

[RynoRules]

I am talking straight production.

 

And BTW, for those of you interested, guess who baseballreference.com says has the most similar stats to Abreu (in the history of baseball)...

LMAO...I didn't know TB claimed him in the expansion draft, then promptly traded him to Philly for....Kevin Stocker....That's about on par with the Lou Brock trade for us.

 

Wow. That is pretty brutal. And so out of character for the D-Rays! I think at that same time they were busy getting Greg Vaughn, Canseco, and Castilla.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

i guess people didnt read the blurb about hendry turning away when other clubs inquire about pie or hill. they aint going anywhere and certainly not both for abreu. a silly trade proposal imo and one that hendry wouldnt consider for a second.

 

What is the fascination with Rich Hill?

 

With a thin free-agent market the Cubs' best bet is to take on salary in the spirit of 'Choi for Lee.' Lee was 4 years younger than Abreu, though.

 

Pie for Vernon Wells anybody?

 

Vernon Wells isn't very good though.

[RynoRules]

Really, .903 OPS in 240 AB's for one year doesn't do all that much for me, espcially considering his plate discipline and his previous experience.

I think you're underestimating how impressive a 903 OPS for a 20-year-old at AA is.

 

Its a good job, and I don't think anyone is doubting his value. My point is that he has nothing on the ML-level, and we (IMO) want to win now. Abreu has at least 3 very good years left. Pie could some day be Abreu, but we just don't know. If the deal were Pie and Hill for Abreu, count me in.

[1908]

Really, .903 OPS in 240 AB's for one year doesn't do all that much for me, espcially considering his plate discipline and his previous experience.

I think you're underestimating how impressive a 903 OPS for a 20-year-old at AA is.

 

Its a good job, and I don't think anyone is doubting his value.

It seemed to me that DivineBovie was.

[Backtobanks]

If Pie can get us a top caliber proven bat, then I'd trade him. He hasn't shown me he's a can't miss. All he really is now is a prospect with potential. And his K/BB ratio really does bother me. He could very easily be a flop, like so many other top tier Cub offensive prospects in recent years.

 

If the deal was right for Abreu, I'd do it and not think twice about it.

 

Don't forget Pie is 20 years old and expected to be playing regularly in the majors at 21. I don't know what you consider a "can't miss" prospect (or if there is such a player), but he's the closest this organization has had in a long, long time.

[goonys evil twin]

With a thin free-agent market the Cubs' best bet is to take on salary in the spirit of 'Choi for Lee.' Lee was 4 years younger than Abreu, though.

 

Pie for Vernon Wells anybody?

 

Yeah no.

 

Your scouts would have to have some of the most glowing reports possible about Wells' pending explosion to justify that deal. Wells to me is no more than a Corey with a clue, but not an exceptionally large clue.

 

Vernon does appear to be a prototypical Hendry kind of guy though I can't see him dealing Pie for him. Toronto signed him to a semi-reasonable contract and don't appear to be in a cost-cutting mode, but they do apparantly want some pitching.

 

I'm not a Wells fan, but I wouldn't die if he was the Cubs CF next year. And since I've said before that I'd be interested in the Cubs going after Hinske for the bench if Toronto wants to shed that contract, perhaps there is a deal to be made.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Really, .903 OPS in 240 AB's for one year doesn't do all that much for me, espcially considering his plate discipline and his previous experience.

I think you're underestimating how impressive a 903 OPS for a 20-year-old at AA is.

 

Its a good job, and I don't think anyone is doubting his value.

It seemed to me that DivineBovie was.

 

Pie had a .900+ OPS in 240 ABs.

[Backtobanks]

I think everyone agrees that Abreu would be a fantastic fit in RF. The only question involves what you have to give up for him. While I've been waiting a long time for a WS, there's no guarantee that Abreu gets you into the WS next year. All of those big names are great, but the Cubs won't go far with an extended DL stint by Lee, Ramirez, Prior, Zambrano, or Wood. Everybody stays reasonably healthy and the Cubs can win with some of those lesser names in RF (Mench, Floyd, Wilkerson, etc.).

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Really, .903 OPS in 240 AB's for one year doesn't do all that much for me, espcially considering his plate discipline and his previous experience.

I think you're underestimating how impressive a 903 OPS for a 20-year-old at AA is.

 

Its a good job, and I don't think anyone is doubting his value.

It seemed to me that DivineBovie was.

 

Pie had a .900+ OPS in 240 ABs.

 

It's not like this was extremely out of character for him. He put up similar numbers in rookie ball, and his AVG/OBP were in line with his minor league career numbers. The only thing different was the increase in power, which he had shown the potential for in rookie ball, and is natural considering he's been adding muscle as he matures. Maybe he wouldn't have maintained that power, but there's reason to suspect last year wasn't a fluke.

[CubsWin]

i guess people didnt read the blurb about hendry turning away when other clubs inquire about pie or hill. they aint going anywhere and certainly not both for abreu. a silly trade proposal imo and one that hendry wouldnt consider for a second.

I guess you didn't read that quoteless story very carefully and took the assumptions you made as verifiable fact.

 

Was there a quote in that story from Hendry saying, "I will never trade Pie or Hill for anyone, so any GM out there that wants them shouldn't bother asking"? No.

 

Did the author of the aritcle say that Hendry wouldn't trade Pie or Hill period, that they are completely untouchable? No.

 

All the author wrote was that Hendry had been turning trades away that were asking for Pie. Did you ever consider that maybe who was being offered wasn't good enough to warrant trading away Pie?

[1908]

Really, .903 OPS in 240 AB's for one year doesn't do all that much for me, espcially considering his plate discipline and his previous experience.

I think you're underestimating how impressive a 903 OPS for a 20-year-old at AA is.

 

Its a good job, and I don't think anyone is doubting his value.

It seemed to me that DivineBovie was.

 

Pie had a .900+ OPS in 240 ABs.

Yeah, half a season, 59 games. Still a very impressive performance given his age and level.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Really, .903 OPS in 240 AB's for one year doesn't do all that much for me, espcially considering his plate discipline and his previous experience.

I think you're underestimating how impressive a 903 OPS for a 20-year-old at AA is.

 

Its a good job, and I don't think anyone is doubting his value.

It seemed to me that DivineBovie was.

 

Pie had a .900+ OPS in 240 ABs.

Yeah, half a season, 59 games. Still a very impressive performance given his age and level.

 

Impressive? Yes. But to count on him as the centerfielder of the future in Chicago? That's a little much for a good 1/2 of a season.

 

He has value. No question about it. however, I think we overvalue him as our farm system doesn't have many upper tier position players.