2005-06 College Basketball Thread

[imb]

Suton blows an open lay-up, and the refs signal for a weird held ball call. Gonzaga ball, on the line, up one, with 4.4 left to go.

[imb]

Gonzaga wins.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Amazing game. Hopefully MSU bounces back tomorrow against the loser of UConn-Arizona, but I don't know what legs they're going to have. Ager was absolutely ridiculous. Too bad Suton missed that bunny, young guy was too wide open.

[Productive Outs]

That's one of the best games I've ever seen.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

MSU fades down the stretch and blows a big lead to 'Zona, but wins in OT. I'll take 1-1 out of two top 10 teams in two days playing 5 halves of basketball between the two of them.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

UCLA comes back but still loses to Memphis in the NIT semifinals. UCLA now faces Drexel.

[snoodmonger]

After choking against Arkansas, KU came back to beat Chaminade. 1-2 is better than 0-3 in Maui.

[Derwood]

Anyone else excited that the NIT is going to a seeded bracket format this year? It's always seemed so random in the past

 

In oth news, my Blue Demons have played just one game, losing to Dayton (I think). Lame

[illiniguy]

i'm fully convinced that, despite making the NC game, the illini will never be able to sign a top 10 recruit again. gordon is waiting for the summer (ie waiting until a better offer comes along) and rose is probably a pipe dream. if we get rose and gordon however, the sky will not be falling. though, i thought we'd get scheyer and collins too, but if the illini can't lure talents like that after a season like last one, they'll never be able to.

 

i'm also convicned that -

 

a. no matter how many guards self has in the fold, he will always recruit guards from illinois, and they will always go to kansas, no matter how many bucknell games there are or how many times his teams unerachieve.

 

b. bruce weber is turning illinois into a mid-major. he can't even fill out a recruiting class for crying out loud. this is a guy, when at purdue, who never lost an illinois guy who he wanted.

 

c. matt painter, an unproven coach who rode weber's wave at SIU, is recruiting better at purdue--must be the slicked back hair that players like.

nice logic applied here. wow, or maybe a junior in high school wants to take all of his visits before he makes the biggest choice of his life. we didn't get a lot of guys in the past that were must gets to lock down the area and had to settle. lets see we could have gotten the great pierre pierce and or sean dockery. instead we had to settle for two unknown mid major players like deron williams and luther head. strangely if you want to watch the two mid major guys you have to pay a lot of money at an nba event. But, hey those numbers next to a guys name mean everything. thats why Marcus Liberty turned into the second coming and Shaquille O'Neal flopped.

secondly, I would take the kind of success that Bruce Weber had at SIU here at illinois. They were in the tourny every year and usualyy won a couple of games in it. the guys record is like 100 and 9 in two years, lets get rid of him and see if Bill Self will come back when KU dumps him for taking all top 5 players who all play 2 positions and go below .500. Oh yeah and if that MSU Gonzaga game was in the tourny it would have been labeled as better than the Duke Kentucky game, although it lacked the signature shot.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Oh yeah and if that MSU Gonzaga game was in the tourny it would have been labeled as better than the Duke Kentucky game, although it lacked the signature shot.

 

Ager's 3 to send it to OT was close to a shot, but his team didn't win it and the game went on for 15 more minutes after it. I read something in the paper today that said that it's already being considered one of the best regular season games ever. High praise.

[illiniguy]

Oh yeah and if that MSU Gonzaga game was in the tourny it would have been labeled as better than the Duke Kentucky game, although it lacked the signature shot.

 

Ager's 3 to send it to OT was close to a shot, but his team didn't win it and the game went on for 15 more minutes after it. I read something in the paper today that said that it's already being considered one of the best regular season games ever. High praise.

it was just unreal for two teams to be firing like that it the same time this early in the season. the post that made fun of msu for always losing in the preconference is a moran also, they are always battle tested in the tournament, thus they are always a tough out as a result.

[Magnetic Curses]

nice logic applied here. wow, or maybe a junior in high school wants to take all of his visits before he makes the biggest choice of his life. we didn't get a lot of guys in the past that were must gets to lock down the area and had to settle. lets see we could have gotten the great pierre pierce and or sean dockery. instead we had to settle for two unknown mid major players like deron williams and luther head.

 

that's fantastic logic, don't go after the best players because they're bound to be busts, and the lesser knowns will always turn out to be great. deron williams was a top 50 guy, not a mid major talent, and luther was one of the best athletes of that class--and the first public league player we'd landed in a while. he had a very high-profile high school all-star game in which he threw the ball between his legs, off the backboard and dunked it--he was known, and he was a very good recruit.

 

i must remind you that illinois will, barring a star juco-transfer that i have yet to hear about, have chester frazier starting at point guard next season, and chester will show you just how very very badly we messed up when we lost collins, i can assure you of that.

 

But, hey those numbers next to a guys name mean everything. thats why Marcus Liberty turned into the second coming and Shaquille O'Neal flopped.

 

marcus liberty did not "flop" in college, he left a year too soon, but he was definitely not a "flop", nor was shaquille a nobody.

 

secondly, I would take the kind of success that Bruce Weber had at SIU here at illinois. They were in the tourny every year and usualyy won a couple of games in it.

 

that's great. i wouldn't. i'm not looking to win "a couple of games" in the tourney.

 

lets get rid of him and see if Bill Self will come back when KU dumps him for taking all top 5 players who all play 2 positions and go below .500.

 

not even self could mess that team up. chalmers, collins, wright, and rush by themselves could win a title.

 

Oh yeah and if that MSU Gonzaga game was in the tourny it would have been labeled as better than the Duke Kentucky game, although it lacked the signature shot.

 

i prefered the MSU-Kentucky game from the last tourney.

[illiniguy]

nice logic applied here. wow, or maybe a junior in high school wants to take all of his visits before he makes the biggest choice of his life. we didn't get a lot of guys in the past that were must gets to lock down the area and had to settle. lets see we could have gotten the great pierre pierce and or sean dockery. instead we had to settle for two unknown mid major players like deron williams and luther head.

 

that's fantastic logic, don't go after the best players because they're bound to be busts, and the lesser knowns will always turn out to be great. deron williams was a top 50 guy, not a mid major talent, and luther was one of the best athletes of that class--and the first public league player we'd landed in a while. he had a very high-profile high school all-star game in which he threw the ball between his legs, off the backboard and dunked it--he was known, and he was a very good recruit.

 

i must remind you that illinois will, barring a star juco-transfer that i have yet to hear about, have chester frazier starting at point guard next season, and chester will show you just how very very badly we messed up when we lost collins, i can assure you of that.

 

But, hey those numbers next to a guys name mean everything. thats why Marcus Liberty turned into the second coming and Shaquille O'Neal flopped.

 

marcus liberty did not "flop" in college, he left a year too soon, but he was definitely not a "flop", nor was shaquille a nobody.

 

secondly, I would take the kind of success that Bruce Weber had at SIU here at illinois. They were in the tourny every year and usualyy won a couple of games in it.

 

that's great. i wouldn't. i'm not looking to win "a couple of games" in the tourney.

 

lets get rid of him and see if Bill Self will come back when KU dumps him for taking all top 5 players who all play 2 positions and go below .500.

 

not even self could mess that team up. chalmers, collins, wright, and rush by themselves could win a title.

 

Oh yeah and if that MSU Gonzaga game was in the tourny it would have been labeled as better than the Duke Kentucky game, although it lacked the signature shot.

 

i prefered the MSU-Kentucky game from the last tourney.

ok maybe you didnt realize that Head was so highly thought of he had to convince two head coaches at illinois to gamble on him. Kruger didn't like him a lot and Self almost pulled his scholly. Deron Williams fell to us because everyone else had a guy who they thought were better. Collins is great you say, yet I question have you ever with your own eyes seen him play a game yet? If you have and you are impressed I would then question you why can't he pull a Scheyer and lead his team down state? I think Collins will be a heck of a player who will be a great college guard, but since he is going to Self I wonder how much better he will get as he doesn;t have a great record of player development. I think Chester Frazier is a good point guard already. When he is in the games the team runs a much better O than when Dee is manning the point guard spot. I also know that UCONN begged Chester not to sign with us because they were interested and got in on the game very late. But, hey that Calhoun doesn't know talent. The fact of the matter is that so far both Frazier and Jamar Smith, another non top 150 guy, both have contributed to a top 20 team as freshmen.

As for your Weber will make us a mid major with his recruits. I have to ask how many times did we go to the elite eight with Self and Kruger or Henson for that matter? All of them were great recruiters. Yet none of them got as far as Weber has in the program. None of them even did a good enough job to beat a higher seeded opponent in the tournament. Brian Carlwell in next years calss is a top 40 player at center. Illinois hasn't had a dominant center since Red Kerr. RIchard Semrau was also a top 40 talent until he quit playing AAU to work on his game within the context of being a team player. Oh man I hate to hear that why get a guy who will iunderstand and accept his role.

As for Marcus Liberty. The guy was the number one player in his class and he had one year as a starter. That is laughable. You are right the shaq thing was kind of a bad example in a way. I was just trying to point out a lot of these guru's don't know as much as people think.

[Magnetic Curses]

ok maybe you didnt realize that Head was so highly thought of he had to convince two head coaches at illinois to gamble on him. Kruger didn't like him a lot and Self almost pulled his scholly.

 

i'm not sure where you get that kruger didn't like head, but self didn't like head because he was lazy and undisciplined, not because he wasn't a tremendous talent.

 

Collins is great you say, yet I question have you ever with your own eyes seen him play a game yet? If you have and you are impressed I would then question you why can't he pull a Scheyer and lead his team down state?

 

as a matter of fact, i have. and it only takes one loss to take you out of the tourney, purely ignoring the fact that collins plays in the CHICAGO PUBLIC LEAGUE which is absolutely stocked with talent and only sends one team "down state".

 

I also know that UCONN begged Chester not to sign with us because they were interested and got in on the game very late. But, hey that Calhoun doesn't know talent. The fact of the matter is that so far both Frazier and Jamar Smith, another non top 150 guy, both have contributed to a top 20 team as freshmen.

 

you KNOW that UCONN "begged" frazier? i thought that was just an IB rumor that couldn't be substantiated, i'd like to know your source on this one.

 

frazier and smith have both contributed against mid major level talent in which weber has gotten them pt because he can afford to. when big ten season comes, i'll believe them when i see them, although i think national recruiting services missed the boat on smith, who will be a great college player. frazier, i'm not sold on at all.

 

As for your Weber will make us a mid major with his recruits. I have to ask how many times did we go to the elite eight with Self and Kruger or Henson for that matter? All of them were great recruiters. Yet none of them got as far as Weber has in the program. None of them even did a good enough job to beat a higher seeded opponent in the tournament.

 

i thought we were talking recruiting, not in-game abilities, because i will take weber over almost any coach in the country based on in-game performance, he definitely leaves self in the dust in that department. the problem is recruiting. weber will be unable to maintain a high level of competition if he doesn't get the top 50 recruits.

 

Brian Carlwell in next years calss is a top 40 player at center. Illinois hasn't had a dominant center since Red Kerr. RIchard Semrau was also a top 40 talent until he quit playing AAU to work on his game within the context of being a team player.

 

carlwell may be the most overrated player to come out of illinois this year and semrau was ranked waaaaaaay to high in the first place, which is why he fell out of the top 50, not because he chose to focus on "being a team player".

 

Oh man I hate to hear that why get a guy who will iunderstand and accept his role.

 

you don't recruit role players, or, at least great recruiters don't.

 

As for Marcus Liberty. The guy was the number one player in his class and he had one year as a starter. That is laughable.

 

do you even remember marcus liberty? he played at illinois for 2 seasons, his first was the 88-89 season, largely regarded as the best team illinois has ever had. in his sophomore year, he averaged 17.8 ppg and 7.1 rpg- he decided to enter the draft after which. so, of the two seasons he played at illinois, he was a bench player on a great team during one and a star on a good team during the other. how was he a "flop"?

[Mark_R]

IG, you wouldn't be saying any of this stuff about Collins if he commited to U of I.

 

And if you've seen Brian Carlwell play, you'd realize he's playing as a man amongst boys whose game isn't being enhanced. He's a few years away from being a legit player (if he becomes one).

 

And the point on Scheyer, you really shouldl read up on GBN instead of just assuming its just him running that team. Zach Kelly and Sean Wallis are key contributors to that team as well. Crane plays in a very difficult conference and the Public League gets one, MAYBE two teams to state every year. Last year he had Ty Kent, but this year, he doesn't have all that much help outside of maybe Dion Dixon. Think of all the great teams in the public league, year in and year out: Westinghouse, Farragut, Simeon, Julian. Also there are programs like Lincoln Park and Marshall both look like they're real strong this season.

 

IG, I highly recommend going to the Proviso West tournament this season and you will get a chance to see most of the great teams in the area.

[snoodmonger]

IG, what's your evidence that players don't improve under Self? His UI players generally got better. I love how Self gets no credit for improving Deron, Head, Dee, etc's game. Of course they were better last year than they were with Self. They were 2 years more mature. That doesn't mean Self didn't help them. It's like saying Roy Williams didn't deserve any of the credit for Wayne Simien. Of course he did. He coached him for 2 years.

 

But Self gets some credit for Wayne, too, and he was an A-A. Miles went from a player who couldn't shoot to a decent shooter who actually stuck with the league. In fact, I haven't looked it up, but I bet you more Self-coached players have played in the NBA than Weber's.

 

I just don't understand the unchecked bitterness of so many Illini fans. So many I talk to have a white Sox mentality when it comes to Self--they don't know what's better, for UI to win or Self to lose. Lame. I'm starting to hope Self steals every good player from Illinois just to spite UI fans.

[Magnetic Curses]

I just don't understand the unchecked bitterness of so many Illini fans. So many I talk to have a white Sox mentality when it comes to Self--they don't know what's better, for UI to win or Self to lose. Lame. I'm starting to hope Self steals every good player from Illinois just to spite UI fans.

 

i think we have a reason to be bitter, but i'm not going to sit here and tell you self's a bad coach, he's not, and he has fantastic vision for what he wants a team to be. do i hope that self loses? every single game. he spurned the illini, a team on the brink of a national title run, loaded with talent and ready to serve, for a team that had just graduated it's top 2 players as well as jettisoned it's AD. what's worse is that he didn't have the ties to KU like roy did to UNC. it stings like a SOB and it's still fresh, to tell U of I fans to not be spiteful is foolish. professionally and objectively, self did nothing wrong and i can't fault him for his choice. personally, i hate his guts and i hope he chokes on the bucknell highlights.

 

i don't think that you can begrudge me my spite.

[dougdescenzo]

i'm not sure where you get that kruger didn't like head, but self didn't like head

 

That's funny

[nilodnayr]

Warren Carter! bum bum badabum Warren Carter!

[illiniguy]

IG, you wouldn't be saying any of this stuff about Collins if he commited to U of I.

 

And if you've seen Brian Carlwell play, you'd realize he's playing as a man amongst boys whose game isn't being enhanced. He's a few years away from being a legit player (if he becomes one).

 

And the point on Scheyer, you really shouldl read up on GBN instead of just assuming its just him running that team. Zach Kelly and Sean Wallis are key contributors to that team as well. Crane plays in a very difficult conference and the Public League gets one, MAYBE two teams to state every year. Last year he had Ty Kent, but this year, he doesn't have all that much help outside of maybe Dion Dixon. Think of all the great teams in the public league, year in and year out: Westinghouse, Farragut, Simeon, Julian. Also there are programs like Lincoln Park and Marshall both look like they're real strong this season.

 

IG, I highly recommend going to the Proviso West tournament this season and you will get a chance to see most of the great teams in the area.

No I wish we would have gotten Collins he is good I just don't guys improved as much under self as they did under weber.

[illiniguy]

IG, what's your evidence that players don't improve under Self? His UI players generally got better. I love how Self gets no credit for improving Deron, Head, Dee, etc's game. Of course they were better last year than they were with Self. They were 2 years more mature. That doesn't mean Self didn't help them. It's like saying Roy Williams didn't deserve any of the credit for Wayne Simien. Of course he did. He coached him for 2 years.

 

But Self gets some credit for Wayne, too, and he was an A-A. Miles went from a player who couldn't shoot to a decent shooter who actually stuck with the league. In fact, I haven't looked it up, but I bet you more Self-coached players have played in the NBA than Weber's.

 

I just don't understand the unchecked bitterness of so many Illini fans. So many I talk to have a white Sox mentality when it comes to Self--they don't know what's better, for UI to win or Self to lose. Lame. I'm starting to hope Self steals every good player from Illinois just to spite UI fans.

um how about frank williams and brian cook not getting any better their entire careers under Billy boy and both flopping in the nba? they were both burger boys who bill really didn't help develop much at all. As for Bucknell Bill at least have the decency to let the players know that you were leaving to their faces like Roy did. Also try not to give anymore I am in this for the long haul speeches weeks before you leave us at the first sign of an upgrade. i hope that wright and collins do well because they are illinois kids, however i hope self gets fired and someone else comes in and finishes the job.

[Flames24Rulz]

thank god Illinois held on to beat Wichita St. I haven't seen highlights yet, but I heard that Wichita hit a 3 from halfcourt right after the final buzzer sounded. whew.

[Flames24Rulz]

IG, what's your evidence that players don't improve under Self? His UI players generally got better. I love how Self gets no credit for improving Deron, Head, Dee, etc's game. Of course they were better last year than they were with Self. They were 2 years more mature. That doesn't mean Self didn't help them. It's like saying Roy Williams didn't deserve any of the credit for Wayne Simien. Of course he did. He coached him for 2 years.

 

But Self gets some credit for Wayne, too, and he was an A-A. Miles went from a player who couldn't shoot to a decent shooter who actually stuck with the league. In fact, I haven't looked it up, but I bet you more Self-coached players have played in the NBA than Weber's.

 

I just don't understand the unchecked bitterness of so many Illini fans. So many I talk to have a white Sox mentality when it comes to Self--they don't know what's better, for UI to win or Self to lose. Lame. I'm starting to hope Self steals every good player from Illinois just to spite UI fans.

um how about frank williams and brian cook not getting any better their entire careers under Billy boy and both flopping in the nba? they were both burger boys who bill really didn't help develop much at all. As for Bucknell Bill at least have the decency to let the players know that you were leaving to their faces like Roy did. Also try not to give anymore I am in this for the long haul speeches weeks before you leave us at the first sign of an upgrade. i hope that wright and collins do well because they are illinois kids, however i hope self gets fired and someone else comes in and finishes the job.

 

here here. Snood, the reason were bitter is because the guy flat out left us right when the Kansas job opened. Like illiniguy said, he didn't tell any of the players he was leaving until he basically left. Screw him. I have nothing really against the program of Kansas except the coach of it.

[snoodmonger]

Why are Cook and Williams's failure Self's fault. Is it possible they just weren't good enough to make an impact in the NBA? Also, I'd need to see evidence they "didn't get any better" other than you just saying so.

 

It's not like I don't understand the bitterness. I was furious when Roy left. And personally, I think Roy's situation was harder on our fans. He'd already rejected UNC once. He left right afer 2 final fours, when the program was really gaining momentum. And he went to a school most fans consider a rival.

 

But I'm over it at this point. I don't root for UNC, but I've never rooted for them. I did root for him to win the NC, though, because he did a lot for our school.

 

I still think it was a crappy thing to bolt for UNC, but I realize he thinks it's a better job, and he thought he'd be happier there. So more power to him.

 

I'm just tired of the Self/KU bashing from Illini fans. They always talk about how they got a better coach, hown they're in better hands now with Weber. If they really believe that, the should just let it go. Just my opinion.

[illiniguy]

Why are Cook and Williams's failure Self's fault. Is it possible they just weren't good enough to make an impact in the NBA? Also, I'd need to see evidence they "didn't get any better" other than you just saying so.

 

It's not like I don't understand the bitterness. I was furious when Roy left. And personally, I think Roy's situation was harder on our fans. He'd already rejected UNC once. He left right afer 2 final fours, when the program was really gaining momentum. And he went to a school most fans consider a rival.

 

But I'm over it at this point. I don't root for UNC, but I've never rooted for them. I did root for him to win the NC, though, because he did a lot for our school.

 

I still think it was a crappy thing to bolt for UNC, but I realize he thinks it's a better job, and he thought he'd be happier there. So more power to him.

 

I'm just tired of the Self/KU bashing from Illini fans. They always talk about how they got a better coach, hown they're in better hands now with Weber. If they really believe that, the should just let it go. Just my opinion.

Well I would say look at Frank williams winning mr basketabll over bobby simmons, quentin richardson, and corey magettee. look at frank wining big ten player of the year. look at frank playing his second year under bill self and regressing in every major area. Partially it was his fault, but bill is his coach not his buddy. bill should have sat his butt and showed him who was in charge. I do think he is starting to do that though with how he handled the giddens situation. Cook to me had all this great talent could shoot the ball at his height with a great touch he had 4 years to develop a post game to become a very good nba player. four years under bill and we are still waiting. I know this can;t be all attributed to bill, but i think many of us saw the huge strides all three of our guards made while playing under weber and go to the conclusion it was his coaching that developed them. right or wrong it is how I feel. anyways it is a moot point. we are more angry because we felt with bill we were on the verge of being something really special because the man can sell ice to eskimos and prety much beat anyone not named K for a recruit head up. Well that and the slimy way he left. the whole situation was crap and it left us out in the air as espn and every other major network is pushing ku so hard he would have looked like a loser had he left. yet they did no such thing for our program after Bill left. now i think we have the better game coach by far, but we might step back a bit because of the difference in talent. I only hope bruce can gain in the recruiting field. They really need to pair him with a Jimmy Collins.