Interesting Notes on the Cubs from the GM Meetings...

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Change-up is difficult to learn b/c it messes with your muscle memory. Getting the drop in velocity and slight movement down and away isn't as difficult to do, but keeping the same arm angle and speed is.

 

what? you're not changing arm speed or delivery from your fastball if you're doing it right.

 

it's the resistance the ball sees that slows the ball down, not arm speed. the forces on the arm should be the same.

 

12 year olds learn this pitch. it should be the second pitch you learn (after the fastball).

How many pitchers in MLB have a really effective changeup? It is an easy pitch to learn to throw. It is hard to learn to be deceptive enough with it to be effective.

 

effective? more than a few. it's not supposed to be a strike out pitch. you throw changeups on counts where the hitter is looking for a fastball (3-1, 2-1, 2-0, 1-0). it's there to keep hitters honest on the fastball. plenty of pitchers (just about all quality starters) have "average" changeups and that's all you need.

 

my guess is hill knows how to throw the changeup. how can you get to that level and not? it's either not very good or he doesn't believe in using it for whatever reason. His fastball/curveball repertoire has certainly been good enough to dominate (his K/9 has always been ridiculous), so why would he use the changeup? it's his command of the curveball that's hampered his progress, not the lack of another pitch.

 

we need to do a Q&A with Rich Hill. I gots me some questions. :lol:

Edited November 13, 2005 by Meat&PotatoesMan

[CoolHandLuke]

Change-up is difficult to learn b/c it messes with your muscle memory. Getting the drop in velocity and slight movement down and away isn't as difficult to do, but keeping the same arm angle and speed is.

 

what? you're not changing arm speed or delivery from your fastball if you're doing it right.

 

it's the resistance the ball sees that slows the ball down, not arm speed. the forces on the arm should be the same.

 

12 year olds learn this pitch. it should be the second pitch you learn (after the fastball).

How many pitchers in MLB have a really effective changeup? It is an easy pitch to learn to throw. It is hard to learn to be deceptive enough with it to be effective.

 

my guess is hill knows how to throw the changeup. how can you get to that level and not? it's either not very good or he doesn't believe in using it for whatever reason. His fastball/curveball repertoire has certainly been good enough to dominate (his K/9 has always been ridiculous). it's his command of the curveball that's hampered his progress.

 

we need to do a Q&A with Rich Hill. I gots me some questions. :lol:

 

I thought it was always his command with his fastball that gave him trouble?

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Change-up is difficult to learn b/c it messes with your muscle memory. Getting the drop in velocity and slight movement down and away isn't as difficult to do, but keeping the same arm angle and speed is.

 

what? you're not changing arm speed or delivery from your fastball if you're doing it right.

 

it's the resistance the ball sees that slows the ball down, not arm speed. the forces on the arm should be the same.

 

12 year olds learn this pitch. it should be the second pitch you learn (after the fastball).

How many pitchers in MLB have a really effective changeup? It is an easy pitch to learn to throw. It is hard to learn to be deceptive enough with it to be effective.

 

my guess is hill knows how to throw the changeup. how can you get to that level and not? it's either not very good or he doesn't believe in using it for whatever reason. His fastball/curveball repertoire has certainly been good enough to dominate (his K/9 has always been ridiculous). it's his command of the curveball that's hampered his progress.

 

we need to do a Q&A with Rich Hill. I gots me some questions. :lol:

 

I thought it was always his command with his fastball that gave him trouble?

 

if that's true, then it would explain the lack of changeup. you need a good fastball to throw the changeup (it's pretty worthless otherwise).

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I just want to add that I've heard numerous times major league pitchers say the change-up is the hardest pitch to throw.

[ManCrushOnNomar]

I seem to remember Hill having troubles not with his location of the curveball, but with umps' interpretation of his curveball. When a pitch starts at the waist and falls to the ankles within the distance of the plate, it's tough to call. His curve has so much motion on it that it fooled many umpires. It's like Zito's curve with a joystick controlling it.

[Jehrico]

His fastball/curveball repertoire has certainly been good enough to dominate (his K/9 has always been ridiculous), so why would he use the changeup? it's his command of the curveball that's hampered his progress, not the lack of another pitch.

 

I would disagree. Considering Hill's lack of ability to consistantly throw his curve for a strike when he is behind in the count, his lack of a third pitch puts him at a great disadvantage against major league hitters. If he gets behind in the count, a good hitter can sit back on the fastball or look for the walk. His curve isn't quite as consistant as, say, KRod, to where he can rely on it when he's down 3-1 in the count. That's why he needs a third pitch, and a change would be more than adequate to keep hitters from sitting back to much when they're ahead in the count.

[MPrior]

Change-up is difficult to learn b/c it messes with your muscle memory. Getting the drop in velocity and slight movement down and away isn't as difficult to do, but keeping the same arm angle and speed is.

 

what? you're not changing arm speed or delivery from your fastball if you're doing it right.

 

it's the resistance the ball sees that slows the ball down, not arm speed. the forces on the arm should be the same.

 

12 year olds learn this pitch. it should be the second pitch you learn (after the fastball).

How many pitchers in MLB have a really effective changeup? It is an easy pitch to learn to throw. It is hard to learn to be deceptive enough with it to be effective.

 

effective? more than a few. it's not supposed to be a strike out pitch. you throw changeups on counts where the hitter is looking for a fastball (3-1, 2-1, 2-0, 1-0). it's there to keep hitters honest on the fastball. plenty of pitchers (just about all quality starters) have "average" changeups and that's all you need.

 

my guess is hill knows how to throw the changeup. how can you get to that level and not? it's either not very good or he doesn't believe in using it for whatever reason. His fastball/curveball repertoire has certainly been good enough to dominate (his K/9 has always been ridiculous), so why would he use the changeup? it's his command of the curveball that's hampered his progress, not the lack of another pitch.

 

we need to do a Q&A with Rich Hill. I gots me some questions. :lol:

 

When pitchers explain why they are hesitant to throw the changeup, it's usually because they have trouble controlling it - which makes sense, as it sits further back in your hand than most other pitches, and you can't use your fingertips for pinpoint control. This is why it's particularly difficult to throw it in fastball counts, unless you have very good command of it. Secondly, a poorly thrown changeup that's left over the heart of the plate is like tee ball for most major league hitters. So control and deception are even more important.

 

And some pitchers do use changeups as strikeout pitches - and very effectively. Johan Santana's changeup is pretty sick. Gagne and Pedro have also used them effectively.

[UK1679666180]

Change-up is difficult to learn b/c it messes with your muscle memory. Getting the drop in velocity and slight movement down and away isn't as difficult to do, but keeping the same arm angle and speed is.

 

what? you're not changing arm speed or delivery from your fastball if you're doing it right.

 

it's the resistance the ball sees that slows the ball down, not arm speed. the forces on the arm should be the same.

 

12 year olds learn this pitch. it should be the second pitch you learn (after the fastball).

 

I know, what I said is what makes a change-up an effective pitch is the same arm angle and speed, it is also difficult for some pitchers to do while getting the drop in velocity and movement.

 

12 year olds can throw it, most throw a palm ball, though.

 

But, to get a change-up to become an avg. or a plus pitch major league pitch is separate than a 12yo throwing it.

 

It certainly isn't an easy pitch to master or everyone would be throwing it well.

[B]

Change-up is difficult to learn b/c it messes with your muscle memory. Getting the drop in velocity and slight movement down and away isn't as difficult to do, but keeping the same arm angle and speed is.

 

what? you're not changing arm speed or delivery from your fastball if you're doing it right.

 

it's the resistance the ball sees that slows the ball down, not arm speed. the forces on the arm should be the same.

 

12 year olds learn this pitch. it should be the second pitch you learn (after the fastball).

How many pitchers in MLB have a really effective changeup? It is an easy pitch to learn to throw. It is hard to learn to be deceptive enough with it to be effective.

 

effective? more than a few. it's not supposed to be a strike out pitch. you throw changeups on counts where the hitter is looking for a fastball (3-1, 2-1, 2-0, 1-0). it's there to keep hitters honest on the fastball. plenty of pitchers (just about all quality starters) have "average" changeups and that's all you need.

 

my guess is hill knows how to throw the changeup. how can you get to that level and not? it's either not very good or he doesn't believe in using it for whatever reason. His fastball/curveball repertoire has certainly been good enough to dominate (his K/9 has always been ridiculous), so why would he use the changeup? it's his command of the curveball that's hampered his progress, not the lack of another pitch.

 

we need to do a Q&A with Rich Hill. I gots me some questions. :lol:

 

Johan Santana

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

His fastball/curveball repertoire has certainly been good enough to dominate (his K/9 has always been ridiculous), so why would he use the changeup? it's his command of the curveball that's hampered his progress, not the lack of another pitch.

 

I would disagree. Considering Hill's lack of ability to consistantly throw his curve for a strike when he is behind in the count, his lack of a third pitch puts him at a great disadvantage against major league hitters. If he gets behind in the count, a good hitter can sit back on the fastball or look for the walk. His curve isn't quite as consistant as, say, KRod, to where he can rely on it when he's down 3-1 in the count. That's why he needs a third pitch, and a change would be more than adequate to keep hitters from sitting back to much when they're ahead in the count.

 

What are you disagreeing with? His K/9 has been consistently high ever since he entered the organization. All I said was that up to the big league level (i used the past tense "has") his two pitch repertoire has been enough to get him by. I never said he'd get away with it at the major league level.

 

I do completely agree with what you posted other than that though. :D

[Jehrico]

His fastball/curveball repertoire has certainly been good enough to dominate (his K/9 has always been ridiculous), so why would he use the changeup? it's his command of the curveball that's hampered his progress, not the lack of another pitch.

 

I would disagree. Considering Hill's lack of ability to consistantly throw his curve for a strike when he is behind in the count, his lack of a third pitch puts him at a great disadvantage against major league hitters. If he gets behind in the count, a good hitter can sit back on the fastball or look for the walk. His curve isn't quite as consistant as, say, KRod, to where he can rely on it when he's down 3-1 in the count. That's why he needs a third pitch, and a change would be more than adequate to keep hitters from sitting back to much when they're ahead in the count.

 

What are you disagreeing with? His K/9 has been consistently high ever since he entered the organization. All I said was that up to the big league level (i used the past tense "has") his two pitch repertoire has been enough to get him by. I never said he'd get away with it at the major league level.

 

I do completely agree with what you posted other than that though. :D

It sounded to me in your last post that you were saying that because his K/9 has been good enough in the past that he wouldn't need a third pitch to succeed in the majors. I misinterpreted, sorry...

 

Back to Hill though, I think he'll be a great setup man someday, maybe even a closer, but I don't see him succeeding as a starter.