hahahhahahahhaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[K-Town]

As a Cubs fan living in St. Louis and not blinded with red glasses as most Cards fans down here are, here is how it works. There is so little of anything going on in this city compared to other baseball towns during the summer that there is nothing else to do.

 

This is also the reason I don't think Mulder will sign with St. Louis after next year.

 

What can you do in other baseball cities that you can't do in St. Louis? And who says that Cardinal players have to live in St. Louis anyway? Edmonds doesn't. McGwire didn't. Walker doesn't. Yet they all love the organization and the fans, and probably wouldn't want to play anywhere else.

Edited October 19, 2005 by K-Town

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Why not go back and have a big circle jerk with capt-budman, big ver, and the others over at Cards Talk? :shrug:

 

With all due respect this was a little over the line.

[gus_dog]

Wow!!! :shock: You really do buy into it!

 

Buy into what?

 

IMO, that poll is meaningless, within the context of whether or not a player signs below market. The real reasons, IMO, are:

 

1) Good organization

2) Good chance to get a WS ring

3) Good chance to play integral part (start)

 

Logic being that the money will be there, one way or the other (endorsements).

 

If you don't have the three items above, you are very unlikely to get a player to take below market to sign with you.

 

Is it not ironic that the Cardinal just happen to have an excellent organization and a good chance at the WS just about every year?

 

I'm not sure I understand the irony in it. Explain.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment.

 

The irony is that you are using some fallacious poll to support your argument, when it is much more likely that the real reasons are much simpler, transparent, and right in front of everyone's eyes. However, you chose to select the weakest evidence available to support your argument.

[mul21]

As a Cubs fan living in St. Louis and not blinded with red glasses as most Cards fans down here are, here is how it works. There is so little of anything going on in this city compared to other baseball towns during the summer that there is nothing else to do.

 

This is also the reason I don't think Mulder will sign with St. Louis after next year.

 

What can you do in other baseball cities that you can't do in St. Louis? And who says that Cardinal players have to live in St. Louis anyway? Edmonds doesn't. McGwire didn't. Walker doesn't. Yet they all love the organization and the fans, and probably wouldn't want to play anywhere else.

 

Go out in the city and have a good time any night of the week. The St. Louis downtown area sucks for the most part. Also, there are very few cultural things to go out and do on a regular basis.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Why not go back and have a big circle jerk with capt-budman, big ver, and the others over at Cards Talk? :shrug:

 

With all due respect this was a little over the line.

 

With all due respect, I find it offensive that someone would come here and claim to be the "best fans." It essence, it's saying "I'm a better fan than you are" simply based upon the team I root for.

 

So, if you don't like it...I really could care less.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

And no, the players are not a definitive source. They have minimal interaction with fans of opposing teams. They aren't predisposed to objective analysis(as any "analyst" will prove through their work). YOU CAN'T TELL WHO HAS THE "BEST" FANS. And if you start claiming you are, you take away from those who claim that you are, because the best fans in the game certainly wouldn't be so self-righteous.

 

They're a difinitive source, in the context of what we were discussing. They have interaction with fans, and players from other teams. I'm sure that's what they're basing their opinions on. What do YOU think they're basing their opinions on?

 

As pointed out, it's not a scientific poll, but it works for the context that we need it to work.

 

Just because a player gives a team a discount because he thinks the fans are great, does not make it so. By the same token, an unfair, outdated players poll doesn't prove it either.

 

In the players' opinion, it is so. That's all that matters, in the context of what we're talking about.

 

The poll is only a year and a half old. You think that Cardinal fans have done something to go from 50% (verses 13% for 2nd place) to something much less than that?

 

The poll wasn't even close.

 

It's 2 and a half years old.

 

You said that St. Louis is known for having the best fans. Vance said that having the best fans is a myth. He's right, and no player poll will change that. It's impossible to determine.

[CardsFanInChiTown]

Why not go back and have a big circle jerk with capt-budman, big ver, and the others over at Cards Talk? :shrug:

 

With all due respect this was a little over the line.

 

With all due respect, I find it offensive that someone would come here and claim to be the "best fans." It essence, it's saying "I'm a better fan than you are" simply based upon the team I root for.

 

So, if you don't like it...I really could care less.

 

I don't think K-Town was claiming we were the "best fans". I believe it was in regards to contracts and such.

 

I don't always agree with everything K-Town says but I've never found him to be a troll.

 

This is a Cubs board so I'll lay off.

 

Just my opinion.

[K-Town]

Wow!!! :shock: You really do buy into it!

 

Buy into what?

 

IMO, that poll is meaningless, within the context of whether or not a player signs below market. The real reasons, IMO, are:

 

1) Good organization

2) Good chance to get a WS ring

3) Good chance to play integral part (start)

 

Logic being that the money will be there, one way or the other (endorsements).

 

If you don't have the three items above, you are very unlikely to get a player to take below market to sign with you.

 

Is it not ironic that the Cardinal just happen to have an excellent organization and a good chance at the WS just about every year?

 

I'm not sure I understand the irony in it. Explain.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment.

 

The irony is that you are using some fallacious poll to support your argument, when it is much more likely that the real reasons are much simpler, transparent, and right in front of everyone's eyes. However, you chose to select the weakest evidence available to support your argument.

 

I think that there are alot of factors. I simply pointed out one of them. Yours aren't necessarily quantified. Do you have a resource that tells what players' opinions are on those three measures? How do we know that players believe that the Cardinals have a "good organization" or a "good chance to play an integral part"? You're using arbitrary terms, in my opinion. Your reasons may be "simple" and "transparent", but around here that doesn't cut it. You'd better have something to back it up if you're going to deal with the folks on this board.

[goonys evil twin]

I guess it was a bit much to ask Cards fans to go a whole month without patting themselves on their backs for their collective greatness.

[K-Town]

As a Cubs fan living in St. Louis and not blinded with red glasses as most Cards fans down here are, here is how it works. There is so little of anything going on in this city compared to other baseball towns during the summer that there is nothing else to do.

 

This is also the reason I don't think Mulder will sign with St. Louis after next year.

 

What can you do in other baseball cities that you can't do in St. Louis? And who says that Cardinal players have to live in St. Louis anyway? Edmonds doesn't. McGwire didn't. Walker doesn't. Yet they all love the organization and the fans, and probably wouldn't want to play anywhere else.

 

Go out in the city and have a good time any night of the week. The St. Louis downtown area sucks for the most part. Also, there are very few cultural things to go out and do on a regular basis.

 

That's not really true, I don't think.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

I don't think K-Town was claiming we were the "best fans". I believe it was in regards to contracts and such.

 

I don't always agree with everything K-Town says but I've never found him to be a troll.

 

This is a Cubs board so I'll lay off.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Well, look athis post

 

Well, "best baseball town" might be a myth, but they have the best fans, which to me makes them the best baseball town.

 

Sounds like he was saying they were the best fans. He makes no qualifications there.

 

To me, I don't appreciate it that BS. I called him on it, and I'm not going to let it slide. Ever.

Edited October 19, 2005 by vance_the_cubs_fan

[K-Town]

And no, the players are not a definitive source. They have minimal interaction with fans of opposing teams. They aren't predisposed to objective analysis(as any "analyst" will prove through their work). YOU CAN'T TELL WHO HAS THE "BEST" FANS. And if you start claiming you are, you take away from those who claim that you are, because the best fans in the game certainly wouldn't be so self-righteous.

 

They're a difinitive source, in the context of what we were discussing. They have interaction with fans, and players from other teams. I'm sure that's what they're basing their opinions on. What do YOU think they're basing their opinions on?

 

As pointed out, it's not a scientific poll, but it works for the context that we need it to work.

 

Just because a player gives a team a discount because he thinks the fans are great, does not make it so. By the same token, an unfair, outdated players poll doesn't prove it either.

 

In the players' opinion, it is so. That's all that matters, in the context of what we're talking about.

 

The poll is only a year and a half old. You think that Cardinal fans have done something to go from 50% (verses 13% for 2nd place) to something much less than that?

 

The poll wasn't even close.

 

It's 2 and a half years old.

 

You said that St. Louis is known for having the best fans. Vance said that having the best fans is a myth. He's right, and no player poll will change that. It's impossible to determine.

 

I intended for my remark to be taken within the context of the discussion that we were having. I should have clarified, I suppose...... but I thought it was a given. In the context of what we were talking about, my remark was relevant, and right on the money, and supported by evidence.

 

You're right, the poll is 2 and a half years old. My mistake.

[indifferent]

As a Cubs fan living in St. Louis and not blinded with red glasses as most Cards fans down here are, here is how it works. There is so little of anything going on in this city compared to other baseball towns during the summer that there is nothing else to do.

 

This is also the reason I don't think Mulder will sign with St. Louis after next year.

 

What can you do in other baseball cities that you can't do in St. Louis? And who says that Cardinal players have to live in St. Louis anyway? Edmonds doesn't. McGwire didn't. Walker doesn't. Yet they all love the organization and the fans, and probably wouldn't want to play anywhere else.

 

Go out in the city and have a good time any night of the week. The St. Louis downtown area sucks for the most part. Also, there are very few cultural things to go out and do on a regular basis.

 

That's not really true, I don't think.

 

It's partially true, you can find these things to do, there's just not as many choices.

 

Unless Mulder gets married in the next year, I think he's gone. I'm from OH, an original midwesterner, so I find St. Louis perfectly fine. Mulder is a single guy from CA and I think he'd prefer a bigger city on either coast.

[gus_dog]

Wow!!! :shock: You really do buy into it!

 

Buy into what?

 

IMO, that poll is meaningless, within the context of whether or not a player signs below market. The real reasons, IMO, are:

 

1) Good organization

2) Good chance to get a WS ring

3) Good chance to play integral part (start)

 

Logic being that the money will be there, one way or the other (endorsements).

 

If you don't have the three items above, you are very unlikely to get a player to take below market to sign with you.

 

Is it not ironic that the Cardinal just happen to have an excellent organization and a good chance at the WS just about every year?

 

I'm not sure I understand the irony in it. Explain.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment.

 

The irony is that you are using some fallacious poll to support your argument, when it is much more likely that the real reasons are much simpler, transparent, and right in front of everyone's eyes. However, you chose to select the weakest evidence available to support your argument.

 

I think that there are alot of factors. I simply pointed out one of them. Yours aren't necessarily quantified. Do you have a resource that tells what players' opinions are on those three measures? How do we know that players believe that the Cardinals have a "good organization" or a "good chance to play an integral part"? You're using arbitrary terms, in my opinion. Your reasons may be "simple" and "transparent", but around here that doesn't cut it. You'd better have something to back it up if you're going to deal with the folks on this board.

 

Their track record speaks volumes. What is it now?

 

Five division titles in six years, what, some fifteen world championships, how many pennants? 24? It pains me so so recount these successes, but let's just say there is plenty of real historical evidence within the public domain to prove that they have an excellent organization, and that they are almost always contendres. It is also very logical that players being of the nature that winning is one of their primary goals, that they would indeed want to play for that team.

 

I think that pretty well 'cuts it', and I believe that just about anybody (a fan of any team) would pretty much concur.

[K-Town]

 

I don't think K-Town was claiming we were the "best fans". I believe it was in regards to contracts and such.

 

I don't always agree with everything K-Town says but I've never found him to be a troll.

 

This is a Cubs board so I'll lay off.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Well, look athis post

 

Well, "best baseball town" might be a myth, but they have the best fans, which to me makes them the best baseball town.

 

Sounds like he was saying they were the best fans. He makes no qualifications there.

 

To me, I don't appreciate it that BS. I called him on it, and I'm not going to let it slide. Ever.

 

I'm glad you referenced my comments. It puts it in perfect context of what we were discussing (contracts, players, home discounts, etc.). I basically said that, in the eyes of players, the city of St. Louis has the best fans. Then I supported it. I'll stand by that. It's not BS, unless the players' opinions don't matter to you.

[goonys evil twin]

Unless Mulder gets married in the next year, I think he's gone. I'm from OH, an original midwesterner, so I find St. Louis perfectly fine. Mulder is a single guy from CA and I think he'd prefer a bigger city on either coast.

 

I thought Mulder was from IL.

[gus_dog]

As a Cubs fan living in St. Louis and not blinded with red glasses as most Cards fans down here are, here is how it works. There is so little of anything going on in this city compared to other baseball towns during the summer that there is nothing else to do.

 

This is also the reason I don't think Mulder will sign with St. Louis after next year.

 

What can you do in other baseball cities that you can't do in St. Louis? And who says that Cardinal players have to live in St. Louis anyway? Edmonds doesn't. McGwire didn't. Walker doesn't. Yet they all love the organization and the fans, and probably wouldn't want to play anywhere else.

 

Go out in the city and have a good time any night of the week. The St. Louis downtown area sucks for the most part. Also, there are very few cultural things to go out and do on a regular basis.

 

That's not really true, I don't think.

 

It's partially true, you can find these things to do, there's just not as many choices.

 

Unless Mulder gets married in the next year, I think he's gone. I'm from OH, an original midwesterner, so I find St. Louis perfectly fine. Mulder is a single guy from CA and I think he'd prefer a bigger city on either coast.

 

Mulder is from the Chicago suburbs

[K-Town]

Wow!!! :shock: You really do buy into it!

 

Buy into what?

 

IMO, that poll is meaningless, within the context of whether or not a player signs below market. The real reasons, IMO, are:

 

1) Good organization

2) Good chance to get a WS ring

3) Good chance to play integral part (start)

 

Logic being that the money will be there, one way or the other (endorsements).

 

If you don't have the three items above, you are very unlikely to get a player to take below market to sign with you.

 

Is it not ironic that the Cardinal just happen to have an excellent organization and a good chance at the WS just about every year?

 

I'm not sure I understand the irony in it. Explain.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment.

 

The irony is that you are using some fallacious poll to support your argument, when it is much more likely that the real reasons are much simpler, transparent, and right in front of everyone's eyes. However, you chose to select the weakest evidence available to support your argument.

 

I think that there are alot of factors. I simply pointed out one of them. Yours aren't necessarily quantified. Do you have a resource that tells what players' opinions are on those three measures? How do we know that players believe that the Cardinals have a "good organization" or a "good chance to play an integral part"? You're using arbitrary terms, in my opinion. Your reasons may be "simple" and "transparent", but around here that doesn't cut it. You'd better have something to back it up if you're going to deal with the folks on this board.

 

Their track record speaks volumes. What is it now?

 

Five division titles in six years, what, some fifteen world championships, how many pennants? 24? It pains me so so recount these successes, but let's just say there is plenty of real historical evidence within the public domain to prove that they have an excellent organization, and that they are almost always contendres. It is also very logical that players being of the nature that winning is one of their primary goals, that they would indeed want to play for that team.

 

I think that pretty well 'cuts it', and I believe that just about anybody (a fan of any team) would pretty much concur.

 

 

Right, but those things weren't necessarily happening when players like McGwire and Edmonds were raving about playing for the Cardinals, and that history wasn't necessarily there when the poll was taken (mid-season in 2003). The recent history supports your argument, but I think that St. Louis has been perceived by the players as a good place to play, long before any of those things were true (5 division titles and such).

[indifferent]

Unless Mulder gets married in the next year, I think he's gone. I'm from OH, an original midwesterner, so I find St. Louis perfectly fine. Mulder is a single guy from CA and I think he'd prefer a bigger city on either coast.

 

I thought Mulder was from IL.

 

True, but Chicago qualifies as a big city, just not on the coast. He seems to have grown accustomed to the CA lifestyle from his OAK stint. He likes to golf also, so STL wouldn't be his choice. He also seems to prefer a younger team.

[ManEatingTarp]

I am dumber for having just read this thread.

 

St. Louis has great fans.

Chicago has great fans.

Tampa Bay has great fans.

 

Wherever you have a baseball team, you'll find great fans.

 

Here are my other thoughts on this thread:

There is no way to quantify "best" on this subject, so just drop it.

 

There is more to do in St. Louis than go to baseball games. Saying that there isn't shows me how short sighted some people can be.

 

Carl Everret doesn't believe in dinosaurs, so I don't take a lot of stock in player opinions.

 

Circle Jerks? I expect more from you Vance.

 

Let's just enjoy October baseball and let this other crap not ruin it. That goes for both sides.

[gus_dog]

Their track record speaks volumes. What is it now?

 

Five division titles in six years, what, some fifteen world championships, how many pennants? 24? It pains me so so recount these successes, but let's just say there is plenty of real historical evidence within the public domain to prove that they have an excellent organization, and that they are almost always contendres. It is also very logical that players being of the nature that winning is one of their primary goals, that they would indeed want to play for that team.

 

I think that pretty well 'cuts it', and I believe that just about anybody (a fan of any team) would pretty much concur.

 

 

Right, but those things weren't necessarily happening when players like McGwire and Edmonds were raving about playing for the Cardinals, and that history wasn't necessarily there when the poll was taken (mid-season in 2003). The recent history supports your argument, but I think that St. Louis has been perceived by the players as a good place to play, long before any of those things were true (5 division titles and such).

 

Since 2003 lands smack dab in the middle of the most recent run, I would say it certainly does qualify. The other things I mentioned do too. It is a storied franchise (gawd, I hated writing that, but it's true).

 

The best fans thing is, at best, for the fans. Besides, I think players think of themselves when choosing where to play, and I sincerely doubt that they reference some cnn poll.....

[K-Town]

Their track record speaks volumes. What is it now?

 

Five division titles in six years, what, some fifteen world championships, how many pennants? 24? It pains me so so recount these successes, but let's just say there is plenty of real historical evidence within the public domain to prove that they have an excellent organization, and that they are almost always contendres. It is also very logical that players being of the nature that winning is one of their primary goals, that they would indeed want to play for that team.

 

I think that pretty well 'cuts it', and I believe that just about anybody (a fan of any team) would pretty much concur.

 

 

Right, but those things weren't necessarily happening when players like McGwire and Edmonds were raving about playing for the Cardinals, and that history wasn't necessarily there when the poll was taken (mid-season in 2003). The recent history supports your argument, but I think that St. Louis has been perceived by the players as a good place to play, long before any of those things were true (5 division titles and such).

 

Since 2003 lands smack dab in the middle of the most recent run, I would say it certainly does qualify. The other things I mentioned do too. It is a storied franchise (gawd, I hated writing that, but it's true).

 

The best fans thing is, at best, for the fans. Besides, I think players think of themselves when choosing where to play, and I sincerely doubt that they reference some cnn poll.....

 

No, I wasn't suggesting that they were referencing a poll. My point was that the players, for whatever reason, believe that St. Louis has the best fans, and so that may factor into where they want to play.

 

Maybe it wouldn't factor. I think that your list of 3 things is probably far more relevant, but it's harder to quantify, I suppose.

[The Voice of Reason]

I think the real reason that players like to play in St. Louis is because the stadium is close to the Bowling Hall of Fame.

[stitchface]

oh, and I have to add that first inning curtain calls on solo homeruns are showing up the other team in my book also. you'd think the "worlds greatest fans" would have a little more class.

 

I understand what you are saying but have you ever noticed how players sign discounts and waive no-trade clauses just to play in st louis?

 

The Cardinals are a well run organization. I don't think that has anything to do with their fans though. And I do think the discounts are a bit overstated. Declaring St. Louis the best baseball city is ridiculous and indicative of feelings of inferiority. But whatever, Card fans are great in their own minds.

[goonys evil twin]

Unless Mulder gets married in the next year, I think he's gone. I'm from OH, an original midwesterner, so I find St. Louis perfectly fine. Mulder is a single guy from CA and I think he'd prefer a bigger city on either coast.

 

I thought Mulder was from IL.

 

True, but Chicago qualifies as a big city, just not on the coast. He seems to have grown accustomed to the CA lifestyle from his OAK stint. He likes to golf also, so STL wouldn't be his choice. He also seems to prefer a younger team.

 

Where you play doesn't have to be where you live year round. There's a ton of golf in the Chicago area and many other midwestern locales, I have to assume there's golf in STL. So during the season he can golf on his off days no matter where he plays. And if he wants to live full time in CA, he still can. There have been baseball teams in CA and TX for years and an enormous amount of players from those areas. But none of those teams seems to have gained any sort of advantage from their location. I think the whole close to home thing is overblown. Maybe guys tend to migrate home toward the end of their careers, but for the most part, they follow the money.