Rumoured Cubs- Marlins/Cubs-Dodgers Trades

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Lowe is a clubhouse problem?

 

We'd better not be giving Murton to the Marlins in that deal.

 

The "problem" stems from an allegation that Lowe (who is married) has been having an affair with a Dodgers beat reporter, which has caused some awkward moments in that clubhouse. That's what I have been told.

 

Gee, that's a real news flash. Next up--sun rises, sets, film at 11.

[Exile on Waveland]

If this trade went down, it would indicate to me that the Cubs are looking to improve the defense significantly. I'd guess that Furcal would still be the big FA target in that case, which would make the Cubs pretty spectacular up the middle. The pitching would be pretty well set in the rotation. All it would really take would be a strong RF and one more reliever to make it a great offseason.

 

That would be a very impressive offseason. And I'd be pleasantly suprised if it happened.

 

As far as Milton Bradley being insane, the White Sox have dealt pretty well with Carl Everett, who's no model of mental health. I think Bradley just needs to be on a winning team in a supportive enviroment.

My concern would be that Hendry wouldn't see the need for a big-time RF if he made the trade and landed Furcal.

 

That would be my major concern after those deals. It would be an upgrade no doubt, but not an enormous one. Plus, I could see Jim being extremely satisfied with the team after those moves, then exercising Burnitz' ugly option (when does that have to happen?). I would not be happy with that OF.

 

Listen, I'll be the first to admit that you're better with numbers than I am. However, I think it is an enormous upgrade.

 

Bradley's OBP the last three years is 421-362-350. Patterson's three-year stretch is 329-320-254. Looking at that, I guess 350-329 isn't that big of difference, but that's Bradley's low-mark and Patterson's high-mark.

 

Castillo's gone 381-373-391 compared to Walker's 333-352-355. Walker's numbers are good, but Castillo's are darn-near great. Castillo's also a gold glove caliber defender, and, while not really a good basestealer, I do believe his speed helps in certain situations.

 

I'd also feel much, much more comfortable with Lowe in the rotation. He's a solid innings-eater. This rotation needs that. Plus, it would give us good depth or trade bait with Williams and Mitre.

 

Disclaimer: This post in NO way endorses not doing anything in RF. We'd still need a good player, hopefully Giles, in RF. I just think this trade would offer a big, big improvement. Another bullpen arm would be nice, too. Also, I don't mean to say OBP is the only stat, but it's what this team is missing.

Edited October 17, 2005 by Exile on Waveland

[don_kessinger_was_good]

Just send Walker to LA for Bradley and be done with them. I'd rather spend some of this "$22MM" on Kevin Millwood outright, and keep all our prospects, then waste time with Derek Lowe. Luis Castillo is an expensive, aging popgun bat with drastically reduced speed, who makes millions. No thanks. I'll just sign Furcal and move Cedeno to 2nd.

 

Overall, I'm up several millions of dollars on this thread, and I keep all of my prospects. I have Bradley and Furcal for the top of my order, and Millwood in my rotation. Works for me.

[Sabermetrician]

Would make the lineup that I wanted almost a reality (Castillo, Bradley, Lee, Ramirez, Giles, Garciaparra, Murton, Barrett), and we get a solid starter on top of that. Lowe's contract isn't good, but he'd be a starter who could give us what Clement brought. Another note on the contract is that in addition to all the money we have to spend this offseason, we also lose Maddux and $9 million after this year.

 

Do these two trades and sign Giles and we're a bullpen away from where I'd want us to be heading into next season.

[goonys evil twin]

But aren't Bradley, Furcal and Castillo upgrades in the OBP department?

 

I'm not saying those people aren't upgrades. I just think that if that's all you do, and you make the mistake of settling for crap in RF again, the Cubs will be putting themselves in another sticky situation. Murton is no guarantee to put up good numbers (although I'm perfectly happy with going with him if the other spots are filled). Bradley is no guarantee to be productive for a whole year (in fact, the closest he ever came to a full season was 2004 - 141 G, 516 AB, .267/.362/.424).

 

And I will always have questions about Castillo's ability to slap happy himself to solid numbers on the thick Wrigley infield.

 

Yes, they are individual upgrades, but they would not fully answer the questions. Make those trades, and sign Giles, then we're talking, but I think those trades, all alone, would leave this team short.

[Neuby]

If your able to get Bradley and Castillo for the top of the lineup I don't need Furcal, I go after Nomar at a bargain rate with Cedeno in the wings. Murton starts the season in Left with hopefully someone on the bench to protect him. RF you need a big bat could the Cubs move Patterson, Williams, and prospects for Manny and cash? Hendry needs to do everything possible for Run producing bat in RF.

[TheDude]

But aren't Bradley, Furcal and Castillo upgrades in the OBP department?

 

I'm not saying those people aren't upgrades. I just think that if that's all you do, and you make the mistake of settling for crap in RF again, the Cubs will be putting themselves in another sticky situation. Murton is no guarantee to put up good numbers (although I'm perfectly happy with going with him if the other spots are filled). Bradley is no guarantee to be productive for a whole year (in fact, the closest he ever came to a full season was 2004 - 141 G, 516 AB, .267/.362/.424).

 

And I will always have questions about Castillo's ability to slap happy himself to solid numbers on the thick Wrigley infield.

 

Yes, they are individual upgrades, but they would not fully answer the questions. Make those trades, and sign Giles, then we're talking, but I think those trades, all alone, would leave this team short.

I don't think the Cubs will get Giles.

 

But, to your point, if the Cubs make these moves, they will be in a Furcal or high-end right fielder mentality, and not both.

 

If they sign Furcal, they have only ~8 million left to fill the bench, RF, and 1 bullpen slot (I am guessing kids + Dempster snatch all the rest).

 

Otherwise, the Cubs gamble on Cedeno, and spend 10 mill on a RF.

[goonys evil twin]

I don't think the Cubs will get Giles.

 

But, to your point, if the Cubs make these moves, they will be in a Furcal or high-end right fielder mentality, and not both.

 

If they sign Furcal, they have only ~8 million left to fill the bench, RF, and 1 bullpen slot (I am guessing kids + Dempster snatch all the rest).

 

Otherwise, the Cubs gamble on Cedeno, and spend 10 mill on a RF.

 

Furcal doesn't do much for me. The upgrade from Cedeno to Furcal isn't big enough to justify not upgrading from a Burnitz to a real RF. That would be maybe 75-100 OPS points, maximum, at SS, but 150-200 OPS points in the OF.

 

They cannot afford to settle on another worthless OF.

[Schwarber Fan]

Curiously, though, I have heard this from 2 different people in the last 2 weekends

 

btw, who/how reliable were to 2 ppl?

[MPrior]

Hoops-

 

You said you heard this from two different people - I obviously don't want to know who they are, but I would like to know in what context they said this. As in, were they just throwing out ideas that they thought might work? Or were they actually citing it as something they had reason to believe might be happening?

 

Lastly, the Marlins definitely seem to be making out big here too. I wonder it if would be possible to get them to send a prospect or something to the Dodgers if that would me DePo more likely to pull the trigger.

[CuseCubFan69]

Castillo worries me. Somebody convince me he is going to be a 290/370 healthy 2nd baseman.

[MPrior]

So let's assume this happens. We obviously still have the hole in RF to consider, as well as some bullpen help and filling out the bench, as everyone's mentioned, and we wouldn't necessarily have enough money to get all that we want out of that.

 

I really like the idea of flipping Lowe along to someone else in this case. Williams may not be great, but his production probably won't be too much worse than Lowe's, and he costs much much less. So if we can get some bullpen help in return for Lowe, it would free up $5-7 mill (depending on who we get in the trade) we could put towards picking up Giles or paying for some other impact RF. There will almost certainly be someone interested in Lowe who has something we want.

 

What do you guys think?

[TheDude]

Furcal doesn't do much for me. The upgrade from Cedeno to Furcal isn't big enough to justify not upgrading from a Burnitz to a real RF. That would be maybe 75-100 OPS points, maximum, at SS, but 150-200 OPS points in the OF.

 

They cannot afford to settle on another worthless OF.

I understand the statement, but outside of Giles, who is out there to provide that OPS boost in RF?

 

Obviously there are trade targets, but from a FA perspective, I'm not sure the answer is out there.

[mhuber92211]

I am completely against any trade involving Milton Bradley. Why would we be interested in a player like that? Are we just the type of fans that look directly at numbers and forget about what kind of person this player is? This guy self destructs at least 1 time a season which results in a slump/DL time for him and the team who is forced to go through a media blitz.

 

Bradley assulated his pregnant wife. He threw things back into the stands and constantly yells back at them during games. Imagine that in CF for the Cubs and all the bleacher bums. It just doesn't make sense when you look at the overall player Bradley is.

 

I doubt that Hendry would look anywhere near Bradley after his moves towards "chemistry". There are plenty of better options then Bradley. I would classify acquiring Bradley to being the acquiring team of Sosa loast season. Plently of ideas that he could return to some sort of glory and that any trouble can be left behind but we all know in the back of our minds that its hard to change people.

[TheDude]

Castillo worries me. Somebody convince me he is going to be a 290/370 healthy 2nd baseman.

This year was the first year in 6 years he has had less than 500 ABs. I'm not worried.

[TheDude]

I am completely against any trade involving Milton Bradley. Why would we be interested in a player like that? Are we just the type of fans that look directly at numbers and forget about what kind of person this player is? This guy self destructs at least 1 time a season which results in a slump/DL time for him and the team who is forced to go through a media blitz.

 

Bradley assulated his pregnant wife. He threw things back into the stands and constantly yells back at them during games. Imagine that in CF for the Cubs and all the bleacher bums. It just doesn't make sense when you look at the overall player Bradley is.

 

I doubt that Hendry would look anywhere near Bradley after his moves towards "chemistry". There are plenty of better options then Bradley. I would classify acquiring Bradley to being the acquiring team of Sosa loast season. Plently of ideas that he could return to some sort of glory and that any trouble can be left behind but we all know in the back of our minds that its hard to change people.

I'm not a fan of Bradley myself. But I believe I undertand the main point of supporters arguments, which would be:

 

1) Numbers

2) His mentality is supposed to be Dusty's specialty as a manager

3) Buy low. Dodgers do not value Bradley much, and his asking price is lower than his numbers would indicate.

[HoopsCubs]

Hoops-

 

You said you heard this from two different people - I obviously don't want to know who they are, but I would like to know in what context they said this. As in, were they just throwing out ideas that they thought might work? Or were they actually citing it as something they had reason to believe might be happening?

 

Lastly, the Marlins definitely seem to be making out big here too. I wonder it if would be possible to get them to send a prospect or something to the Dodgers if that would me DePo more likely to pull the trigger.

 

They have a loose affiliation with some of the decision makers, but there not "in the know" per se like some of my more reliable and sincere sources. Which is why I predicated the comments with the "grain of salt." Still, I do perceive that changes are coming - I get the sense that Hendry really wants to to beef up the 1-2 holes for Derrek and Aramis - the question is can he with what's out there.

[goonys evil twin]

There are plenty of better options then Bradley. I would classify acquiring Bradley to being the acquiring team of Sosa loast season. Plently of ideas that he could return to some sort of glory and that any trouble can be left behind but we all know in the back of our minds that its hard to change people.

 

There might be better options than Bradley, but I wouldn't call them plenty. I'm not big time Bradley booster or anything, but I can't think of anything better right now.

 

The big difference between Bradley and Sosa is the 10 years of age. Nobody thinks Bradley can return to any glory, he's never had any. But they do think he can be a relatively productive CF. His attitude is definitely a concern, but it's not the most important thing. The Cubs need production, not chemistry.

[katway]

Castillo worries me. Somebody convince me he is going to be a 290/370 healthy 2nd baseman.

 

Is this retorical? Those are his career average over nine years http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3515

 

He missed some games last year with a strained thigh/hip flexer, but nothing too serious.

[goonys evil twin]

Castillo worries me. Somebody convince me he is going to be a 290/370 healthy 2nd baseman.

This year was the first year in 6 years he has had less than 500 ABs. I'm not worried.

 

But hip issues on a guy who relies so heavily on speed, has to be a concern.

[USSoccer]

There are plenty of better options then Bradley. I would classify acquiring Bradley to being the acquiring team of Sosa loast season. Plently of ideas that he could return to some sort of glory and that any trouble can be left behind but we all know in the back of our minds that its hard to change people.

 

There might be better options than Bradley, but I wouldn't call them plenty. I'm not big time Bradley booster or anything, but I can't think of anything better right now.

 

The big difference between Bradley and Sosa is the 10 years of age. Nobody thinks Bradley can return to any glory, he's never had any. But they do think he can be a relatively productive CF. His attitude is definitely a concern, but it's not the most important thing. The Cubs need production, not chemistry.

 

Agreed. Chemistry got us a sub-.500 record this season. I'll take the chance that Baker can control Bradley.

[USSoccer]

Castillo worries me. Somebody convince me he is going to be a 290/370 healthy 2nd baseman.

This year was the first year in 6 years he has had less than 500 ABs. I'm not worried.

 

But hip issues on a guy who relies so heavily on speed, has to be a concern.

 

I'd say your previous point about the Wrigley grass might be more of a worry than his hip. As long as it's not degenerative or anything, hip flexors generally heal.

[CoolHandLuke]

Castillo worries me. Somebody convince me he is going to be a 290/370 healthy 2nd baseman.

This year was the first year in 6 years he has had less than 500 ABs. I'm not worried.

 

But hip issues on a guy who relies so heavily on speed, has to be a concern.

 

I'd say your previous point about the Wrigley grass might be more of a worry than his hip. As long as it's not degenerative or anything, hip flexors generally heal.

 

Small sample size but he did hit .333 (17-51) from 2002-2005 in wrigley.

[USSoccer]

Castillo worries me. Somebody convince me he is going to be a 290/370 healthy 2nd baseman.

This year was the first year in 6 years he has had less than 500 ABs. I'm not worried.

 

But hip issues on a guy who relies so heavily on speed, has to be a concern.

 

I'd say your previous point about the Wrigley grass might be more of a worry than his hip. As long as it's not degenerative or anything, hip flexors generally heal.

 

Small sample size but he did hit .333 (17-51) from 2002-2005 in wrigley.

 

Too small of a sample for me to get excited.

[Magnetic Curses]

i've heard from several sources that bradley, if traded to the cubs, will refuse to wear a believe bracelet. jim, don't do it! we need clubhouse guys like ned flanders and andy griffith, jim get one of those dudes, andy could bring some of aunt b's pickles to work when we're in a slump, that would cheer us up.

 

and i know that dusty would make a sweet fishin buddy for opie.