McGwire's return

[wolf stansson]

I couldn't find the thread where this was discussed earlier. Admittedly I didin't look very long. Anyway, I made the journey south last night (Friday) to say farewell to the current Busch. As most of you probably know McGwire was there to tear down the #3 for the three games remaining.

 

There was some debate on this board as to what the reaction would be. It was exactly as I thought and said it would be.

 

Mac received not one, but two looong standing o's. One when he removed the number and one when they interviewed him in the press box for his homerun record as the #3 greatest moment in Busch Stadium history. Last night they gave away the top ten greatest moment dvd's and were showing it between innings. After every moment they had someone who had something to do with it up in the press box being interviewed by Bob Carpenter and then waved at the crowd. The fans went nuts for McGwire.

[MeatampPotatoesMan]

Because a player is popular means he played the game the right way? :?

[dalgreen]

I'm sure my post will upset some, but oh well....

 

The Cardinal fans acted just like the blind sheep I knew they would. I just wanted to applaud the few in my section that either booed or just stood there without applause. As much as a lot of Cardinal fans want to defend their actions by saying, "This is a celebration", well no it wasn't last night. When McGwire came to tear down the #3 it was about him, and not the stadium's history. If he had come out with all the other former Cardinal players, then, yes, it would've been about the organization. I've always said there are people who are baseball fans first and their team fans second. The ones who didn't applaud McGwire are baseball fans first. The ones who applauded him are Cardinal fans first. Basically, I'm saying those that applaud or just want to ignore it are those who go to games to be entertained and not for the love of the game. If you go to baseball games to be seen or to brag to your co-workers or just to see home runs then you probably would applaud McGwire. But if you took '98 seriously, and McGwire, then you should feel cheated. I equate it to Ben Johnson and the '88 olympics. Some of you may be too young to even know what I'm talking about. But he smashed the world record in the 100m dash, I mean smashed it. A week later his gold medal and record were taken away with his positive steroid test. If he went to the Penn Relays or some other big track event, I don't think the fans nor track coaches would applaud him today.

 

I was also disappointed in LaRussa, who gave him a big applause, too. LaRussa had been adamant that McGwire had never taken steriods. I can't believe that he still believes that, so the applause may have just been for show.

[Cubfanintheknow]

I'm sure my post will upset some, but oh well....

 

The Cardinal fans acted just like the blind sheep I knew they would. I just wanted to applaud the few in my section that either booed or just stood there without applause. As much as a lot of Cardinal fans want to defend their actions by saying, "This is a celebration", well no it wasn't last night. When McGwire came to tear down the #3 it was about him, and not the stadium's history. If he had come out with all the other former Cardinal players, then, yes, it would've been about the organization. I've always said there are people who are baseball fans first and their team fans second. The ones who didn't applaud McGwire are baseball fans first. The ones who applauded him are Cardinal fans first. Basically, I'm saying those that applaud or just want to ignore it are those who go to games to be entertained and not for the love of the game. If you go to baseball games to be seen or to brag to your co-workers or just to see home runs then you probably would applaud McGwire. But if you took '98 seriously, and McGwire, then you should feel cheated. I equate it to Ben Johnson and the '88 olympics. Some of you may be too young to even know what I'm talking about. But he smashed the world record in the 100m dash, I mean smashed it. A week later his gold medal and record were taken away with his positive steroid test. If he went to the Penn Relays or some other big track event, I don't think the fans nor track coaches would applaud him today.

 

I was also disappointed in LaRussa, who gave him a big applause, too. LaRussa had been adamant that McGwire had never taken steriods. I can't believe that he still believes that, so the applause may have just been for show.

 

Your post didn't upset me. You hit the nail on the head.

[wolf stansson]

Yeah I got harassed by a drunk guy behind me because I just stood w/out applauding. He told me to stop being a Cards fan because I wasn't clapping for McGwire. I don't think he was really that much of an ass, I think he was just mad because I laughed at his wife after she told me not to boo Ray King. Of course right after that he gave up a hit and a walk and loaded the bases without retiring a single batter and booed him again. He wasn't happy.

[vaball]

I wasn't there but from what I've read at places like Cards talk there was plenty of booing. Cardinal nation is very split on this. What McGwire did for St. Louis and for all of baseball was huge. Baseball is still running off of the momentum that '98 fueled.

 

Personally I think it is somewhate hypocritical to outright boo McGwire because the fans are totally complicit in this steriod fiasco. Fans are not poor-suckers duped into believing in unworthy heros. All anyone had to do was look at the guys, Mac, Sammy, Giambi, Bonds, etc. and know from common sense that they didn't get so hulking huge with weights alone. We were just as willing to go along with it as the owners were because baseball was back and better than ever and everyone was having a good time. The players gave us what we wanted and we loved every minute of it.

 

And now so many people sit on their couches in self righteous indignation and demand that these men be booed. I don't think it is that simple.

[Derwood]

Cardinal loyalty is an odd thing. Take the death of Darryl Kile for example. While the premature death of any athlete is sad, the fandom of Cardinal Nation acted like the president of the US had died. Candlelight vigils, video retrospectives, etc. All for a guy who was by no means a Cardinal legend. In fact he was only in his 2nd or 3rd season in St Louis. I think Kile's passing was met with more public displays of weeping and genuflecting than Jack Buck's, a man who truly is a legend.

 

I expect no different behavior, however, from Cub fans in the future when it comes to Sosa.

[wolf stansson]

I think Kile's passing was met with more public displays of weeping and genuflecting than Jack Buck's, a man who truly is a legend.

Don't you think the passing of a young man in the prime of life with two young children and a wife is slightly more tragic than someone who was 78 and sick in the hospital for weeks before he passed? Death is death, but when you can prepare for it in advance it is much easier to deal with.

 

vaball - I was at the game and I didn't really hear much booing at all. I think the booing is exaggerated because people don't want all Cardinals fans to look like blind homers.

[dalgreen]

I think Kile's passing was met with more public displays of weeping and genuflecting than Jack Buck's, a man who truly is a legend.

Don't you think the passing of a young man in the prime of life with two young children and a wife is slightly more tragic than someone who was 78 and sick in the hospital for weeks before he passed? Death is death, but when you can prepare for it in advance it is much easier to deal with.

 

vaball - I was at the game and I didn't really hear much booing at all. I think the booing is exaggerated because people don't want all Cardinals fans to look like blind homers.

 

There was definitely more booing for Renteria when he returned than for McGwire's return. There were some boos, but I'd bet it was only 10%.

[dalgreen]

I wasn't there but from what I've read at places like Cards talk there was plenty of booing. Cardinal nation is very split on this. What McGwire did for St. Louis and for all of baseball was huge. Baseball is still running off of the momentum that '98 fueled.

 

Personally I think it is somewhate hypocritical to outright boo McGwire because the fans are totally complicit in this steriod fiasco. Fans are not poor-suckers duped into believing in unworthy heros. All anyone had to do was look at the guys, Mac, Sammy, Giambi, Bonds, etc. and know from common sense that they didn't get so hulking huge with weights alone. We were just as willing to go along with it as the owners were because baseball was back and better than ever and everyone was having a good time. The players gave us what we wanted and we loved every minute of it.

 

And now so many people sit on their couches in self righteous indignation and demand that these men be booed. I don't think it is that simple.

 

I do think it's that simple. There were plenty of people (granted nowhere near the majority) questioning whether or not McGwire, Sosa, et al were juiced. But then when fans would pose the question to other fans, they were hit with replies like, "Prove it." Even with the Andro stuff with McGwire there were some fans saying he's not playing the game the right way. Again, they were hit with, "Andro is legal in baseball", although it was illegal in virtually every other sport. Now that these people have been vindicated, I think they deserve every right to boo or not applaud. I can't believe so many so-called fans can just overlook the issue especially since so many revered records have fallen or will fall. As I said, this wouldn't fly in track and field nor should it fly in baseball. We're not talking about utility guys being the only ones to take them, but we're talking about potential hall-of-famers.

[K-Town]

I'm sure my post will upset some, but oh well....

 

The Cardinal fans acted just like the blind sheep I knew they would. I just wanted to applaud the few in my section that either booed or just stood there without applause. As much as a lot of Cardinal fans want to defend their actions by saying, "This is a celebration", well no it wasn't last night. When McGwire came to tear down the #3 it was about him, and not the stadium's history. If he had come out with all the other former Cardinal players, then, yes, it would've been about the organization. I've always said there are people who are baseball fans first and their team fans second. The ones who didn't applaud McGwire are baseball fans first. The ones who applauded him are Cardinal fans first. Basically, I'm saying those that applaud or just want to ignore it are those who go to games to be entertained and not for the love of the game. If you go to baseball games to be seen or to brag to your co-workers or just to see home runs then you probably would applaud McGwire. But if you took '98 seriously, and McGwire, then you should feel cheated. I equate it to Ben Johnson and the '88 olympics. Some of you may be too young to even know what I'm talking about. But he smashed the world record in the 100m dash, I mean smashed it. A week later his gold medal and record were taken away with his positive steroid test. If he went to the Penn Relays or some other big track event, I don't think the fans nor track coaches would applaud him today.

 

I was also disappointed in LaRussa, who gave him a big applause, too. LaRussa had been adamant that McGwire had never taken steriods. I can't believe that he still believes that, so the applause may have just been for show.

 

Some of you take the game way, way, WAY too seriously. I watch the game for the enjoyment of the game. I enjoyed what McGwire did in St. Louis. Nobody's going to take that enjoyment away from me. Not only that, but McGwire is a decent human being. The sanctimonious attitude that some of you exhibit is almost laughable. I think that some of you are downright HAPPY that you think you have a legitimate reason to hate McGwire. Furthermore, this attitude is pretty short-sighted. You think it's OK to hate Mac, because 1) he was highly successful, and 2) you've convinced yourself that he's been proven guilty of something (even though he hasn't). Meanwhile, you want to ignore the fact that some of your heroes are likely doing the same thing that McGwire was (or might have been) doing. But as long as they don't break any of your sacred records while doing it, and as long as they don't get "busted", you'll love them just the same.

 

McGwire is loved in St. Louis. Always will be. The fact that Cardinal fans don't carry the bitterness around with them that alot of the rest of you choose to carry around is what allows them to enjoy the game so much, in my opinion.

[dalgreen]

I'm sure my post will upset some, but oh well....

 

The Cardinal fans acted just like the blind sheep I knew they would. I just wanted to applaud the few in my section that either booed or just stood there without applause. As much as a lot of Cardinal fans want to defend their actions by saying, "This is a celebration", well no it wasn't last night. When McGwire came to tear down the #3 it was about him, and not the stadium's history. If he had come out with all the other former Cardinal players, then, yes, it would've been about the organization. I've always said there are people who are baseball fans first and their team fans second. The ones who didn't applaud McGwire are baseball fans first. The ones who applauded him are Cardinal fans first. Basically, I'm saying those that applaud or just want to ignore it are those who go to games to be entertained and not for the love of the game. If you go to baseball games to be seen or to brag to your co-workers or just to see home runs then you probably would applaud McGwire. But if you took '98 seriously, and McGwire, then you should feel cheated. I equate it to Ben Johnson and the '88 olympics. Some of you may be too young to even know what I'm talking about. But he smashed the world record in the 100m dash, I mean smashed it. A week later his gold medal and record were taken away with his positive steroid test. If he went to the Penn Relays or some other big track event, I don't think the fans nor track coaches would applaud him today.

 

I was also disappointed in LaRussa, who gave him a big applause, too. LaRussa had been adamant that McGwire had never taken steriods. I can't believe that he still believes that, so the applause may have just been for show.

 

Some of you take the game way, way, WAY too seriously. I watch the game for the enjoyment of the game. I enjoyed what McGwire did in St. Louis. Nobody's going to take that enjoyment away from me. Not only that, but McGwire is a decent human being. The sanctimonious attitude that some of you exhibit is almost laughable. I think that some of you are downright HAPPY that you think you have a legitimate reason to hate McGwire. Furthermore, this attitude is pretty short-sighted. You think it's OK to hate Mac, because 1) he was highly successful, and 2) you've convinced yourself that he's been proven guilty of something (even though he hasn't). Meanwhile, you want to ignore the fact that some of your heroes are likely doing the same thing that McGwire was (or might have been) doing. But as long as they don't break any of your sacred records while doing it, and as long as they don't get "busted", you'll love them just the same.

 

McGwire is loved in St. Louis. Always will be. The fact that Cardinal fans don't carry the bitterness around with them that alot of the rest of you choose to carry around is what allows them to enjoy the game so much, in my opinion.

 

Yeah, I guess I do take the game too seriously as do many other fans and former players who believe in the integrity of the game. I don't know why McGwire is classified as a "decent human being". Here's a guy who first claimed when accused by Canseco, "Consider the source." And give it up on the sanctimonious crap. That's just words people use to justify their position. If McGwire had even said, "If I used it, then it was done unknowingly" I'd have more respect for him. And I'd have more respect for him if he came out and said he used it. But if you enjoyed watching all those home runs while being duped into thinking it was being done the right way, that's your call. But I wonder what the Maris family really thinks about McGwire? But then again, I guess it's your position that every weightlifter, swimmer and track and field athlete who have lost their medals because of steriods or other illegal doping, should be given their medals back.

[K-Town]

Yeah, I guess I do take the game too seriously as do many other fans and former players who believe in the integrity of the game. I don't know why McGwire is classified as a "decent human being". Here's a guy who first claimed when accused by Canseco, "Consider the source." And give it up on the sanctimonious crap. That's just words people use to justify their position. If McGwire had even said, "If I used it, then it was done unknowingly" I'd have more respect for him. And I'd have more respect for him if he came out and said he used it. But if you enjoyed watching all those home runs while being duped into thinking it was being done the right way, that's your call. But I wonder what the Maris family really thinks about McGwire? But then again, I guess it's your position that every weightlifter, swimmer and track and field athlete who have lost their medals because of steriods or other illegal doping, should be given their medals back.

 

"Integrity of the game"? Since when has the game been about "integrity"? Like I said, it's easy for you to make a target out of McGwire, who has (in your mind) been "busted" for doing something wrong. Meanwhile, you want to ignore the fact that half of the league has probably done something that you would consider "lacking integrity". You simply don't know about it, so you ignore it. I think it makes you angry that Mac won't give you anything concrete, so all you're left with is your assumptions. That's why you'd "respect him more" if he admitted to doing something. Then you could really tear into him. If you're going to take away records/medals from every player who has ever "not done it the right way", then you're going to have to go back WAY further than McGwire. Go back to the pre-50's, when the records were set against and by only white American players (because the "integrity" in the league back then wasn't strong enough to allow non-whites to play their precious game). Go back to the 70's & 80's, when players were using "speed" to get an edge.

 

You want to make McGwire a target, because it's the simple answer for you. I don't blame you.

 

Doesn't matter. You can try to take away his records (although he doesn't really hold any records that you can take from him). Frankly, I don't think he cares. Neither to most St. Louis fans. The excitement that he brought to St. Louis in '98 can't be taken away. Not by baseball, not by you, not by anybody.

[dalgreen]

"Integrity of the game"? Since when has the game been about "integrity"? Like I said, it's easy for you to make a target out of McGwire, who has (in your mind) been "busted" for doing something wrong. Meanwhile, you want to ignore the fact that half of the league has probably done something that you would consider "lacking integrity". You simply don't know about it, so you ignore it. I think it makes you angry that Mac won't give you anything concrete, so all you're left with is your assumptions. That's why you'd "respect him more" if he admitted to doing something. Then you could really tear into him. If you're going to take away records/medals from every player who has ever "not done it the right way", then you're going to have to go back WAY further than McGwire. Go back to the pre-50's, when the records were set against and by only white American players (because the "integrity" in the league back then wasn't strong enough to allow non-whites to play their precious game). Go back to the 70's & 80's, when players were using "speed" to get an edge.

 

You want to make McGwire a target, because it's the simple answer for you. I don't blame you.

 

Doesn't matter. You can try to take away his records (although he doesn't really hold any records that you can take from him). Frankly, I don't think he cares. Neither to most St. Louis fans. The excitement that he brought to St. Louis in '98 can't be taken away. Not by baseball, not by you, not by anybody.

 

McGwire is the target because that's what this thread is about. If you want to talk about all the other players who I suspect used and the many in the NFL who I still think use then I'll participate in that thread. This thread is about McGwire. I know you want to believe that Cub fans would act as blind sheep like a lot of Card fans, but speaking for myself, I wouldn't give Sosa an applause, either. Just as I said with Mac, I just stood and didn't clap, the same thing I'd do with Sosa. And I lived here in St. Louis during 1998, and was present on Sept. 8, 1998, and applauded because I witnessed first hand something that I, and millions of people, never thought would be broken. Yes, I now feel cheated, although I suspected both were using, but chose to give them the benefit of the doubt. I gave McGwire the benefit of the doubt all the way until last spring at the congressional hearings. Again, if you want to talk about all the other "ills" of baseball past and present, I'll be more than happy to participate in that thread. But it blows my mind how Ray King gets booed, Tino Martinez got booed, but McGwire didn't. Something seems wrong with that picture.

[K-Town]

McGwire is the target because that's what this thread is about. If you want to talk about all the other players who I suspect used and the many in the NFL who I still think use then I'll participate in that thread. This thread is about McGwire. I know you want to believe that Cub fans would act as blind sheep like a lot of Card fans, but speaking for myself, I wouldn't give Sosa an applause, either. Just as I said with Mac, I just stood and didn't clap, the same thing I'd do with Sosa. And I lived here in St. Louis during 1998, and was present on Sept. 8, 1998, and applauded because I witnessed first hand something that I, and millions of people, never thought would be broken. Yes, I now feel cheated, although I suspected both were using, but chose to give them the benefit of the doubt. I gave McGwire the benefit of the doubt all the way until last spring at the congressional hearings. Again, if you want to talk about all the other "ills" of baseball past and present, I'll be more than happy to participate in that thread. But it blows my mind how Ray King gets booed, Tino Martinez got booed, but McGwire didn't. Something seems wrong with that picture.

 

I've made my point in THIS thread. No need for another one. Why start a thread about other players that you think are "crooked"? That's exactly my point........... you don't KNOW which ones are and aren't. You simply want to look at the surface of the game, and seperate good from bad. That's a simple-minded way of observing the game, in my opinion.

 

Tino Martinez was booed because he never considered himself a "true" Cardinal, even when he played for the team. He alienated himself from teh fans, both on and off the field.

 

Sosa was a first-class jerk, right up until he walked out on the team in his last game with the Cubs.

 

 

McGwire spoke highly of the organization, the fans, the city, etc. Therefore, the fans return the love. He played hard, played with enthusiasm and emotion, and gave alot back to the city. MOST Cardinal fans recognize that.

 

 

If you're booing and cheering players simply based on the statistics, and how "you think" they attained the statistics, then you're not a baseball fan...... you're a mathematician.

[dalgreen]

Tino Martinez was booed because he never considered himself a "true" Cardinal, even when he played for the team. He alienated himself from teh fans, both on and off the field.

 

Sosa was a first-class jerk, right up until he walked out on the team in his last game with the Cubs.

 

 

McGwire spoke highly of the organization, the fans, the city, etc. Therefore, the fans return the love. He played hard, played with enthusiasm and emotion, and gave alot back to the city. MOST Cardinal fans recognize that.

 

 

If you're booing and cheering players simply based on the statistics, and how "you think" they attained the statistics, then you're not a baseball fan...... you're a mathematician.

 

Tino wasn't a "true" Cardinal. So what? Was Kerry Robinson? Was Placido Polanco? Tino was brought over because he was a Yankee and Cardinal fans and GM/manager thought that would automatically mean a World Series appearance, and it didn't.

 

McGwire did speak highly of the city and the fans. But he also left for California the next day the Cardinal season was over, and he faxed his retirement to ESPN --- says a lot for how he felt about the organization.

 

Your last paragraph, all I have to say is ....... :scratch:

[K-Town]

Tino Martinez was booed because he never considered himself a "true" Cardinal, even when he played for the team. He alienated himself from teh fans, both on and off the field.

 

Sosa was a first-class jerk, right up until he walked out on the team in his last game with the Cubs.

 

 

McGwire spoke highly of the organization, the fans, the city, etc. Therefore, the fans return the love. He played hard, played with enthusiasm and emotion, and gave alot back to the city. MOST Cardinal fans recognize that.

 

 

If you're booing and cheering players simply based on the statistics, and how "you think" they attained the statistics, then you're not a baseball fan...... you're a mathematician.

 

Tino wasn't a "true" Cardinal. So what? Was Kerry Robinson? Was Placido Polanco? Tino was brought over because he was a Yankee and Cardinal fans and GM/manager thought that would automatically mean a World Series appearance, and it didn't.

 

McGwire did speak highly of the city and the fans. But he also left for California the next day the Cardinal season was over, and he faxed his retirement to ESPN --- says a lot for how he felt about the organization.

 

Your last paragraph, all I have to say is ....... :scratch:

 

Kerry Robinson was a whiner. Cardinal fans aren't crazy about that.

 

Polanco played hard, and never complained. Cardinal fans would welcome him back in a heartbeat.

 

All Tino talked about while wearing the Cardinal uniform was how much he missed the Yankees. Cardinal fans didn't take kindly to that.

 

 

I'm not sure what you're having trouble understanding. Loyalty goes both ways in St. Louis.

 

McGwire lives in California. I have no problem with that. When he played for the team, he was a Cardinal spokesman (almost single-handedly talked Edmonds into coming to town, etc.), and raved about the Cardinals organization and fans. I'm not sure what the fax has to do with anything. Thankfully, Mac left $15 mil on the table for the Cards to play with. He didn't have to.

[dalgreen]

I'm not sure what the fax has to do with anything. Thankfully, Mac left $15 mil on the table for the Cards to play with. He didn't have to.

 

I think you know what the fax has to do with. If he loved the Cardinal organization so much, why did he never speak to them about his retirement, but chose to use ESPN as his vehicle?

 

Yes, there are good people who are Cardinal fans, but there are a bunch of hypocritical homers, too. I guess if Palmeiro and Bonds came to town they'd get a standing ovation, too. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat. Just because one used to wear the birds on the bat doesn't make him a better cheat. Other than just being hypocritical, I don't see how the fans would boo Bonds but not McGwire. I definitely don't see them applauding Palmeiro. I don't like cheaters, period, whether it's baseball, football, track and field, swimming, etc. I guess some don't mind it if it's close to their heart and it's their guy.

[The Voice of Reason]

All you need to know about Mark McGwire and his "character" can be derived from reading the attached article.

 

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/21900CE8FE5264838625708B001C1F88?OpenDocument

[K-Town]

All you need to know about Mark McGwire and his "character" can be derived from reading the attached article.

 

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/21900CE8FE5264838625708B001C1F88?OpenDocument

 

 

That's not news. McGwire isn't saying anything. He diddn't say anything from the time he retired until the hearings, and he hasn't said anything since. He's a private guy. If that means that he lacks character, then so be it. It's a pretty harsh way to judge a guy, though.

 

Again, I think you HATE the fact that he's not saying anything, because it means that you can't criticize him for what he has to say. So, you choose to criticize him for not saying anything at all. He can't win, and he knows it. Haters will hate him, regardless of what he says or doesn't say. Frankly, I don't think he gives two shakes what folks like you believe.

 

 

 

"I love the way he's managed to stay away," says Tino Martinez, McGwire's replacement at first base. "That's the way it should be done. Just go off and be who you want to be. It's an inspiration. It's a pure thing. He didn't play the game for the fanfare, and he didn't leave the game looking for it."

[K-Town]

I'm not sure what the fax has to do with anything. Thankfully, Mac left $15 mil on the table for the Cards to play with. He didn't have to.

 

I think you know what the fax has to do with. If he loved the Cardinal organization so much, why did he never speak to them about his retirement, but chose to use ESPN as his vehicle?

 

Yes, there are good people who are Cardinal fans, but there are a bunch of hypocritical homers, too. I guess if Palmeiro and Bonds came to town they'd get a standing ovation, too. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat. Just because one used to wear the birds on the bat doesn't make him a better cheat. Other than just being hypocritical, I don't see how the fans would boo Bonds but not McGwire. I definitely don't see them applauding Palmeiro. I don't like cheaters, period, whether it's baseball, football, track and field, swimming, etc. I guess some don't mind it if it's close to their heart and it's their guy.

 

 

Palmeiro and Bonds aren't Cardinals, weren't loyal to the Cardinals, didn't speak highly of the Cardinals, didn't play hard for the Cardinals, haven't donated millions of dollars to charities in St. Louis, and didn't bring the Cardinals years of baseball enjoyment. Again, you're completely missing the point.

 

You're extremely narrow-minded if you think that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, and Giambi are the only "cheaters" to ever play the game. Again, you choose to target the players who are easy targets, and completely ignore everyone else. If you only knew..............

[The Voice of Reason]

All you need to know about Mark McGwire and his "character" can be derived from reading the attached article.

 

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/21900CE8FE5264838625708B001C1F88?OpenDocument

 

 

That's not news. McGwire isn't saying anything. He diddn't say anything from the time he retired until the hearings, and he hasn't said anything since. He's a private guy. If that means that he lacks character, then so be it. It's a pretty harsh way to judge a guy, though.

 

Again, I think you HATE the fact that he's not saying anything, because it means that you can't criticize him for what he has to say. So, you choose to criticize him for not saying anything at all. He can't win, and he knows it. Haters will hate him, regardless of what he says or doesn't say. Frankly, I don't think he gives two shakes what folks like you believe.

 

 

No, I just don't respect people that promise things and then don't come through. But if you want to keep your blinders on, go ahead.

 

 

Wait goes on for McGwire to take action

By Bernie Miklasz

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

Wednesday, Sep. 28 2005

 

Sitting in the same room on March 17, listening to Mark McGwire testify before

a congressional subcommittee during a hearing on steroids abuse, Dr. Denise

Garibaldi found her simmering anger slowly evolving into genuine hope.

 

Squirming under steroids allegations levied against him by former teammate Jose

Canseco, McGwire told the panel that he'd take a leadership role on the issue.

And Denise Garibaldi and her husband, Ray, were seated only a few yards from

McGwire after they had testified about their son's death. McGwire's words gave

them a jolt of optimism.

 

Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-Md.) asked McGwire point blank: "You're willing to be a

national spokesman against steroids?" And McGwire responded "absolutely" and

added that, "I'd be a great one."

 

Denise Garibaldi is still waiting.

 

After making that pledge, McGwire retreated into private life, and he's yet to

follow up on his words, which seemed so sincere at the time.

[K-Town]

All you need to know about Mark McGwire and his "character" can be derived from reading the attached article.

 

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/21900CE8FE5264838625708B001C1F88?OpenDocument

 

 

That's not news. McGwire isn't saying anything. He diddn't say anything from the time he retired until the hearings, and he hasn't said anything since. He's a private guy. If that means that he lacks character, then so be it. It's a pretty harsh way to judge a guy, though.

 

Again, I think you HATE the fact that he's not saying anything, because it means that you can't criticize him for what he has to say. So, you choose to criticize him for not saying anything at all. He can't win, and he knows it. Haters will hate him, regardless of what he says or doesn't say. Frankly, I don't think he gives two shakes what folks like you believe.

 

 

No, I just don't respect people that promise things and then don't come through. But if you want to keep your blinders on, go ahead.

 

 

Wait goes on for McGwire to take action

By Bernie Miklasz

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

Wednesday, Sep. 28 2005

 

Sitting in the same room on March 17, listening to Mark McGwire testify before

a congressional subcommittee during a hearing on steroids abuse, Dr. Denise

Garibaldi found her simmering anger slowly evolving into genuine hope.

 

Squirming under steroids allegations levied against him by former teammate Jose

Canseco, McGwire told the panel that he'd take a leadership role on the issue.

And Denise Garibaldi and her husband, Ray, were seated only a few yards from

McGwire after they had testified about their son's death. McGwire's words gave

them a jolt of optimism.

 

Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-Md.) asked McGwire point blank: "You're willing to be a

national spokesman against steroids?" And McGwire responded "absolutely" and

added that, "I'd be a great one."

 

Denise Garibaldi is still waiting.

 

After making that pledge, McGwire retreated into private life, and he's yet to

follow up on his words, which seemed so sincere at the time.

 

And who says that he won't be?

[dalgreen]

I'm not sure what the fax has to do with anything. Thankfully, Mac left $15 mil on the table for the Cards to play with. He didn't have to.

 

I think you know what the fax has to do with. If he loved the Cardinal organization so much, why did he never speak to them about his retirement, but chose to use ESPN as his vehicle?

 

Yes, there are good people who are Cardinal fans, but there are a bunch of hypocritical homers, too. I guess if Palmeiro and Bonds came to town they'd get a standing ovation, too. A cheat is a cheat is a cheat. Just because one used to wear the birds on the bat doesn't make him a better cheat. Other than just being hypocritical, I don't see how the fans would boo Bonds but not McGwire. I definitely don't see them applauding Palmeiro. I don't like cheaters, period, whether it's baseball, football, track and field, swimming, etc. I guess some don't mind it if it's close to their heart and it's their guy.

 

 

Palmeiro and Bonds aren't Cardinals, weren't loyal to the Cardinals, didn't speak highly of the Cardinals, didn't play hard for the Cardinals, haven't donated millions of dollars to charities in St. Louis, and didn't bring the Cardinals years of baseball enjoyment. Again, you're completely missing the point.

 

You're extremely narrow-minded if you think that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, and Giambi are the only "cheaters" to ever play the game. Again, you choose to target the players who are easy targets, and completely ignore everyone else. If you only knew..............

 

Perhaps if you'd quit sipping the Cardinal kool-aid and try and be objective, you'd read where in an earlier post I stated other players and other NFL players, but you said you didn't want to bring up another thread. So please stop calling me narrow-minded because I've never, never, never said the list you named are the only guys I think have juiced. Basically, like a lot of Cardinal fans, if you play hard, speak highly of the city and fans, you can pretty much get away with murder. McGwire (as well as many others) is a cheater. Put the kool-aid glass down and McGwire is on the long list of cheaters in all sports. When McGwire wasn't under oath he openly and adamantly stated he never took steroids. Then all of a sudden he's under oath and he doesn't take the same stance? Well....steroids is ....is bad.

[The Voice of Reason]

All you need to know about Mark McGwire and his "character" can be derived from reading the attached article.

 

 

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/columnists.nsf/berniemiklasz/story/21900CE8FE5264838625708B001C1F88?OpenDocument

 

 

That's not news. McGwire isn't saying anything. He diddn't say anything from the time he retired until the hearings, and he hasn't said anything since. He's a private guy. If that means that he lacks character, then so be it. It's a pretty harsh way to judge a guy, though.

 

Again, I think you HATE the fact that he's not saying anything, because it means that you can't criticize him for what he has to say. So, you choose to criticize him for not saying anything at all. He can't win, and he knows it. Haters will hate him, regardless of what he says or doesn't say. Frankly, I don't think he gives two shakes what folks like you believe.

 

 

No, I just don't respect people that promise things and then don't come through. But if you want to keep your blinders on, go ahead.

 

 

Wait goes on for McGwire to take action

By Bernie Miklasz

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

Wednesday, Sep. 28 2005

 

Sitting in the same room on March 17, listening to Mark McGwire testify before

a congressional subcommittee during a hearing on steroids abuse, Dr. Denise

Garibaldi found her simmering anger slowly evolving into genuine hope.

 

Squirming under steroids allegations levied against him by former teammate Jose

Canseco, McGwire told the panel that he'd take a leadership role on the issue.

And Denise Garibaldi and her husband, Ray, were seated only a few yards from

McGwire after they had testified about their son's death. McGwire's words gave

them a jolt of optimism.

 

Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-Md.) asked McGwire point blank: "You're willing to be a

national spokesman against steroids?" And McGwire responded "absolutely" and

added that, "I'd be a great one."

 

Denise Garibaldi is still waiting.

 

After making that pledge, McGwire retreated into private life, and he's yet to

follow up on his words, which seemed so sincere at the time.

 

And who says that he won't be?

 

 

Just the people that don't believe in Santa Claus, the Easter bunny and that OJ is out looking for the "real" killer.