Trib Suggests that Furcal Will Be Offseason Target

[hawkeyecub]

 

By the way, it was reported earlier in the week by Bruce Levine that Aramis is good friends with Furcal, and in unofficial, non-tampering way, he was busy chatting up the Cubs, Wrigley, the fans, the city, the bars, etc...

 

Hoops

 

Now we've definitely got him.

[Backtobanks]

No way does Furcal get the same deal Cabrera got. Bidding starts at 4/40.

 

That's what I've been saying. I'm thinking 5/6 years, 10/11M per.

 

But there's still the thing that both LA and NY teams have a SS (or 2 in case of the NY teams). The larger markets appear to be set at SS besides the Cubs. Still, I think Seattle, Washington and others will be players in the FA market this offseason.

 

I agree...with the lack of SS's available he will be a very expensive signing.

 

What SS's could the Cubs get via trade?

 

There's been lots of speculation about Lugo from TB. I would love to get Furcal, but not 5/6 years and $10/$11 million per year. When he starts getting in that range, I would let Cedeno have the job.

[CuseCubFan69]

No way does Furcal get the same deal Cabrera got. Bidding starts at 4/40.

 

That's what I've been saying. I'm thinking 5/6 years, 10/11M per.

 

But there's still the thing that both LA and NY teams have a SS (or 2 in case of the NY teams). The larger markets appear to be set at SS besides the Cubs. Still, I think Seattle, Washington and others will be players in the FA market this offseason.

 

I agree...with the lack of SS's available he will be a very expensive signing.

 

What SS's could the Cubs get via trade?

 

There's been lots of speculation about Lugo from TB. I would love to get Furcal, but not 5/6 years and $10/$11 million per year. When he starts getting in that range, I would let Cedeno have the job.

 

I'd love to see Cedeno get the job but as long a Baker is there I don't think it'll happen. Is there any chance that Greenburg could play CF next year and be that elusive leadoff guy? Maybe Walker?

[wastra]

I still don't get the love people on this board shower on Rafael Furcal.

 

Somehow, I think we could do better than a .750-.770 OPS for $8MM. Hell, I'm willing to bet that in a full year, Cedeno puts up a.740+ OPS or even better.

 

Furcal has a cannon, and plays the field well. But jsut because he's hte best free agent shortstop in a year devoid of other quality free agent shortstops doesn't mean we should give him a monster contract.

 

 

And FWIW, he's been attrocious at Wrigley the past 3 years.

.175/.195/.350

[rawaction]

I still don't get the love people on this board shower on Rafael Furcal.

 

Somehow, I think we could do better than a .750-.770 OPS for $8MM. Hell, I'm willing to bet that in a full year, Cedeno puts up a.740+ OPS or even better.

 

Furcal has a cannon, and plays the field well. But jsut because he's hte best free agent shortstop in a year devoid of other quality free agent shortstops doesn't mean we should give him a monster contract.

 

Furcal's OPS is practically meaningless. Any leadoff hitter's is. I'd take a .600 OPS from my leadoff guy if it meant he was hitting .200/.400/.200, especially when you add in his ability to steal a base at a great clip.

[wastra]

I still don't get the love people on this board shower on Rafael Furcal.

 

Somehow, I think we could do better than a .750-.770 OPS for $8MM. Hell, I'm willing to bet that in a full year, Cedeno puts up a.740+ OPS or even better.

 

Furcal has a cannon, and plays the field well. But jsut because he's hte best free agent shortstop in a year devoid of other quality free agent shortstops doesn't mean we should give him a monster contract.

 

Furcal's OPS is practically meaningless. Any leadoff hitter's is. I'd take a .600 OPS from my leadoff guy if it meant he was hitting .200/.400/.200, especially when you add in his ability to steal a base at a great clip.

 

 

Furcal's career OBP is .346, and .341 as a leadoff hitter. THis year, it is (again) .340

 

He's just not that good a hitter. There is no way that man is a $6-8MM + player.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I still don't get the love people on this board shower on Rafael Furcal.

 

Somehow, I think we could do better than a .750-.770 OPS for $8MM. Hell, I'm willing to bet that in a full year, Cedeno puts up a.740+ OPS or even better.

 

Furcal has a cannon, and plays the field well. But jsut because he's hte best free agent shortstop in a year devoid of other quality free agent shortstops doesn't mean we should give him a monster contract.

 

Furcal's OPS is practically meaningless. Any leadoff hitter's is. I'd take a .600 OPS from my leadoff guy if it meant he was hitting .200/.400/.200, especially when you add in his ability to steal a base at a great clip.

 

I don't buy that. A player is more valuable when he can get past first base on his own, whether it's by hitting 2B, 3B, HR, or by stealing bases. Of course, Furcal steals a lot of bases at a pretty good percentage(92/107, 86% the last 3 years), so on the whole he's probably more valuable than his OPS indicates.

[rawaction]

I still don't get the love people on this board shower on Rafael Furcal.

 

Somehow, I think we could do better than a .750-.770 OPS for $8MM. Hell, I'm willing to bet that in a full year, Cedeno puts up a.740+ OPS or even better.

 

Furcal has a cannon, and plays the field well. But jsut because he's hte best free agent shortstop in a year devoid of other quality free agent shortstops doesn't mean we should give him a monster contract.

 

Furcal's OPS is practically meaningless. Any leadoff hitter's is. I'd take a .600 OPS from my leadoff guy if it meant he was hitting .200/.400/.200, especially when you add in his ability to steal a base at a great clip.

 

 

Furcal's career OBP is .346, and .341 as a leadoff hitter. THis year, it is (again) .340

 

He's just not that good a hitter. There is no way that man is a $6-8MM + player.

 

I'm not arguing how good he is. Just that I could care less about his OPS as a leadoff hitter. His OPS shouldn't be a knock against him. I agree that his OBP isn't that great. And I agree that I wouldn't pay more than $8M for him.

[rawaction]

I still don't get the love people on this board shower on Rafael Furcal.

 

Somehow, I think we could do better than a .750-.770 OPS for $8MM. Hell, I'm willing to bet that in a full year, Cedeno puts up a.740+ OPS or even better.

 

Furcal has a cannon, and plays the field well. But jsut because he's hte best free agent shortstop in a year devoid of other quality free agent shortstops doesn't mean we should give him a monster contract.

 

Furcal's OPS is practically meaningless. Any leadoff hitter's is. I'd take a .600 OPS from my leadoff guy if it meant he was hitting .200/.400/.200, especially when you add in his ability to steal a base at a great clip.

 

I don't buy that. A player is more valuable when he can get past first base on his own, whether it's by hitting 2B, 3B, HR, or by stealing bases. Of course, Furcal steals a lot of bases at a pretty good percentage(92/107, 86% the last 3 years), so on the whole he's probably more valuable than his OPS indicates.

 

Agreed. I was seriously exaggerating. But your final line was my intended point.

[wastra]

I wouldn't pay more than $5MM for him.

 

That's my point. He's already overpaid and overhyped. Atlanta knows it.

 

Of course, that means he's probably perfect for Hendry. :roll:

[YearofDaCubs]

Considering we were giving AGone 6mill per year Furcal is a steal at 8mil. I would personally have Furcal at 8mil than Nomar at 8mil here. I dont think I would pay more than 8mil though. I am also not against the idea of starting Cedeno and using that money elsewhere. Andy MacPhail was on the radio this afternoon and he def didnt sound happy. He did mention that the Cubs will do whatever they can to improve the team. Expect Baker and Hendry back next year. He seemed very confident of that.

[rawaction]

I wouldn't pay more than $5MM for him.

 

That's my point. He's already overpaid and overhyped. Atlanta knows it.

 

Of course, that means he's probably perfect for Hendry. :roll:

 

Well, your stance in then seems to be that everyone is overpaid. I don't mean this personally in any way, but it doesn't matter what any one person thinks a player is worth. The market determines it. If you look at the money and years that players like Guzman, Renteria, Cabrera, and Nomar got.....in that case, Furcal is "worth" way more than $5M.

[wastra]

Considering we were giving AGone 6mill per year Furcal is a steal at 8mil. I would personally have Furcal at 8mil than Nomar at 8mil here. I dont think I would pay more than 8mil though. I am also not against the idea of starting Cedeno and using that money elsewhere. Andy MacPhail was on the radio this afternoon and he def didnt sound happy. He did mention that the Cubs will do whatever they can to improve the team. Expect Baker and Hendry back next year. He seemed very confident of that.

 

I think if a GM spends $8MM on a position player and get under .350 OBP or under .750 OPS, he's a fool.

 

I'd rather spend $8MM+ on a left fielder who can post an .850+ OPS. I really don't think a .340 OBP or .746 OPS is rare enough to spend big bucks and call it an upgrade.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Considering we were giving AGone 6mill per year Furcal is a steal at 8mil. I would personally have Furcal at 8mil than Nomar at 8mil here. I dont think I would pay more than 8mil though. I am also not against the idea of starting Cedeno and using that money elsewhere. Andy MacPhail was on the radio this afternoon and he def didnt sound happy. He did mention that the Cubs will do whatever they can to improve the team. Expect Baker and Hendry back next year. He seemed very confident of that.

 

I think if a GM spends $8MM on a position player and get under .350 OBP or under .750 OPS, he's a fool.

 

I'd rather spend $8MM+ on a left fielder who can post an .850+ OPS. I really don't think a .340 OBP or .746 OPS is rare enough to spend big bucks and call it an upgrade.

 

Supply and Demand. Position scarcity matters.

[YearofDaCubs]

Considering we were giving AGone 6mill per year Furcal is a steal at 8mil. I would personally have Furcal at 8mil than Nomar at 8mil here. I dont think I would pay more than 8mil though. I am also not against the idea of starting Cedeno and using that money elsewhere. Andy MacPhail was on the radio this afternoon and he def didnt sound happy. He did mention that the Cubs will do whatever they can to improve the team. Expect Baker and Hendry back next year. He seemed very confident of that.

 

I think if a GM spends $8MM on a position player and get under .350 OBP or under .750 OPS, he's a fool.

 

I'd rather spend $8MM+ on a left fielder who can post an .850+ OPS. I really don't think a .340 OBP or .746 OPS is rare enough to spend big bucks and call it an upgrade.

I guarantee somebody will pay Furcal 8mil and I dont think they will be fools. I am a big fan of Furcal. He is a good defensive SS with a cannon arm and most importanly is the type of player that makes things happen. He will still bases and be a true leadoff hitter. IMO, it would be 8mil well spent, but considering we have Cedeno as a future SS I would prefer to see us upgrade our abysmal OF first then worry about the rest.

[rawaction]

Considering we were giving AGone 6mill per year Furcal is a steal at 8mil. I would personally have Furcal at 8mil than Nomar at 8mil here. I dont think I would pay more than 8mil though. I am also not against the idea of starting Cedeno and using that money elsewhere. Andy MacPhail was on the radio this afternoon and he def didnt sound happy. He did mention that the Cubs will do whatever they can to improve the team. Expect Baker and Hendry back next year. He seemed very confident of that.

 

I think if a GM spends $8MM on a position player and get under .350 OBP or under .750 OPS, he's a fool.

 

I'd rather spend $8MM+ on a left fielder who can post an .850+ OPS. I really don't think a .340 OBP or .746 OPS is rare enough to spend big bucks and call it an upgrade.

 

Yeah, what CP20 said. BTW, unless you are getting Tejada, Peralta, Jeter, or Michael Young in Arlington, you are very likely to have a SS under a .750 OPS. The only others ahead of Furcal in OPS are Bill Hall (30 points lower OBP), Felipe Lopez (same OBP, more power), and Russ Adams (with a whopping 1 point edge in OPS).

 

A SS with a .750 OPS is gonna go for $8M. An OF with a .750 OPS is gonna be a 4th OF unless he's on the Cubs then he could start at any of the 3 OF positions.

[wastra]

I wouldn't pay more than $5MM for him.

 

That's my point. He's already overpaid and overhyped. Atlanta knows it.

 

Of course, that means he's probably perfect for Hendry. :roll:

 

The market determines it. If you look at the money and years that players like Guzman, Renteria, Cabrera, and Nomar got.....in that case, Furcal is "worth" way more than $5M.

 

 

Not at all. Those people got contracts based upon superior past performance (in Carberra's case, LONG past performance) and the expectation they would equal or surpass it with their new teams. Furcal does not have a track record of superior hitting. He's never bee nsuperior. At best he's been upper-average among shortstops in the majors, not even elite at the plate.

 

 

Now- let me say this:

 

If Hendry signs Furcal AND manages the finances to get top-quality players in at all 3 outfield spots and second base and the pen, then I don't mind if ALL of them are overpaid. If we want to suddenly be the Yankees, that's fine. I'll welcome the wins.

 

But if giving Furcal $8 MM means we have to try to get 'creative' (i.e. reclamation project, or Rockie no one else wants) for an outfield bat or bullpen arms due to salary restrictions, I'll lose it.

 

 

But I don't think it's absurd to say that $8 MM in the outfield positions will return better-quality offensive numbers than at Short. And if that's the case, and we're paying ot get an average (at best) offensive shortstop, why not spend half that and get any number of good glove, mediocre hitting guys and splurge on the positions where there are legit upgrades available?

[rawaction]

 

 

But I don't think it's absurd to say that $8 MM in the outfield positions will return better-quality offensive numbers than at Short. And if that's the case, and we're paying ot get an average (at best) offensive shortstop, why not spend half that and get any number of good glove, mediocre hitting guys and splurge on the positions where there are legit upgrades available?

 

Nobody has argued that in this thread at all. I agree that Furcal would NOT be the best use of alloted funds...but that's not been what this back and forth has been about.

[wastra]

 

 

But I don't think it's absurd to say that $8 MM in the outfield positions will return better-quality offensive numbers than at Short. And if that's the case, and we're paying ot get an average (at best) offensive shortstop, why not spend half that and get any number of good glove, mediocre hitting guys and splurge on the positions where there are legit upgrades available?

 

Nobody has argued that in this thread at all. I agree that Furcal would NOT be the best use of alloted funds...but that's not been what this back and forth has been about.

 

My point was people keep saying he should be priority #1, and how important it is for us to add him, and I disagree. I think he's highly overrated on this board. I think Furcal shouldn't even be a high priority for this team compared to outfield bats and bullpen arms.

[CubfaninCA]

Furcal's not going to just sit @ first base when he gets there like a Walker or a Bellhorn. He's going to steal a lot of bases and distract the opposing pitcher. This may make some uncomfy, but he's a good intangible player. Sorry, I can't present a stat for how much he'll distract opposing pitchers.

[wastra]

Furcal's not going to just sit @ first base when he gets there like a Walker or a Bellhorn. He's going to steal a lot of bases and distract the opposing pitcher. This may make some uncomfy, but he's a good intangible player. Sorry, I can't present a stat for how much he'll distract opposing pitchers.

 

 

I don't disagree with that. I like speed as much as anyone. But signing him for big bucks ($8MM+) for a .340 OBP? That's not solving our problems. The bottom line is that he just doesn't get on base like an $8MM leadoff hitter should.

[AAApittsburgh]

Furcal's not going to just sit @ first base when he gets there like a Walker or a Bellhorn. He's going to steal a lot of bases and distract the opposing pitcher. This may make some uncomfy, but he's a good intangible player. Sorry, I can't present a stat for how much he'll distract opposing pitchers.

Except Walker gets more extra base hits than Furcal, so he doesn't always have to steal a base to get into scoring position. I'm not sure that kind of money is worth some stolen bases.

 

Also, the Braves don't want him back. If they felt he was that important to their team, I think they'd find a way to keep him around. They usually aren't wrong about these types of things.

[CubfaninCA]

Furcal's not going to just sit @ first base when he gets there like a Walker or a Bellhorn. He's going to steal a lot of bases and distract the opposing pitcher. This may make some uncomfy, but he's a good intangible player. Sorry, I can't present a stat for how much he'll distract opposing pitchers.

 

 

I don't disagree with that. I like speed as much as anyone. But signing him for big bucks ($8MM+) for a .340 OBP? That's not solving our problems. The bottom line is that he just doesn't get on base like an $8MM leadoff hitter should.

 

Gotta factor in that he's only 27, and can improve his ability to get on base. Also, he has a cannon for an arm @ SS, w/ exceptional range. The pitching staff should love him.

[rawaction]

Furcal's not going to just sit @ first base when he gets there like a Walker or a Bellhorn. He's going to steal a lot of bases and distract the opposing pitcher. This may make some uncomfy, but he's a good intangible player. Sorry, I can't present a stat for how much he'll distract opposing pitchers.

Except Walker gets more extra base hits than Furcal, so he doesn't always have to steal a base to get into scoring position. I'm not sure that kind of money is worth some stolen bases.

 

Also, the Braves don't want him back. If they felt he was that important to their team, I think they'd find a way to keep him around. They usually aren't wrong about these types of things.

 

It's not about if they think he's important or not. It's about whether they think they can compete with their funds allocated elsewhere. Do you think they thought Sheffield was done when they got rid of him? Or JD Drew? They got rid of them because they thought they could maintain their level of success by replacing them for less money and using what was left over to strengthen another need on the team.

 

If they don't re-sign Furcal, it will be because they believe they can go with a cheaper alternative and make up the production elsewhere, not because they feel they don't need him.

[CubfaninCA]

Furcal's not going to just sit @ first base when he gets there like a Walker or a Bellhorn. He's going to steal a lot of bases and distract the opposing pitcher. This may make some uncomfy, but he's a good intangible player. Sorry, I can't present a stat for how much he'll distract opposing pitchers.

Except Walker gets more extra base hits than Furcal, so he doesn't always have to steal a base to get into scoring position. I'm not sure that kind of money is worth some stolen bases.

 

Also, the Braves don't want him back. If they felt he was that important to their team, I think they'd find a way to keep him around. They usually aren't wrong about these types of things.

 

Are they going to put Wilson Betemit @ SS??