"You really have to be thankful we have Neifi."

[goonys evil twin]

I'll never understand the "trade him while he's good" philosophy. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but isn't that when we'd want to KEEP him? We could trade DLee for a couple of guys who wouldn't put up his numbers. And if by some chance they did, people would be saying we need to trade that guy while he's hot.

 

Well, I understand the buy low sell high philosophy, you just have to know when to use it. I would have had no problem trading Sammy when he was good, because the team around him sucked so bad. Right now however, not only is DLee top 5 at his position, but ARam is top 5, and the Cubs have two elite level starting pitchers, and some other very talented arms. Ideally Hendry gets his head out of Dusty's busty and comes up with a plan to field a major league capable OF next year, and at least an average SS.

 

I think it could be very smart to trade certain players coming off career years, however, it's a risky move in more ways than one.

[badgercub]

Neifi Perez is horrible with the bat. But to his credit, his lack of offense is more noticeable in a crappy lineup like we've had to trot out every day this year. Had we gotten good offensive production all year from the lf, cf, and rf positions, I don't think his offense would be addressed as it has been on this thread and the dozens of others throughout the season. And I don't see why there needs to be a comparison to Womack. Perez was never, ever signed by the Cubs to be a starter. The Cardinals and the Yankees signed Womack to be a starter.

 

Who cares what he was signed for. He was used as a starter and failed miserably. Saying it's not his fault that he played that much hardly justifies his presence in the lineup on a regular basis. He can't return. SF dumped the guy when they had a far more potent lineup to hide him in than the Cubs did. The Cubs signed him knowing that Nomar was unlikely to play full-time, and if they didn't know that they were just too stupid too know how bad Neifi is (which is debatable).

 

Why are people trying to gloss over how bad Neifi is? Prior to Nomar's hot August, the Cubs were at the bottom of the league in terms of production from SS, and Neifi accounted for the vast majority of that. He hurts the ballclub when he plays. He'd be a fine $500,000 25th man. But that type of player is a dime a dozen. But because the manager is so ignorant of the reality of baseball stats, you cannot bring Neifi back in any capacity next season if Dusty is still around.

 

Dusty didn't even try to hide him in the lineup. he batted him leadoff when he had much better options in Jerry Hairston or Todd Walker IMHO when that rash of injuries occurred, I thought Barret should have been battting second over the duo of Neifi and Patterson. If, and that's a big "if", Neifi had batted eighth all year his crappiness may not have affected the lineup as much as it has.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

I'll never understand the "trade him while he's good" philosophy. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but isn't that when we'd want to KEEP him? We could trade DLee for a couple of guys who wouldn't put up his numbers. And if by some chance they did, people would be saying we need to trade that guy while he's hot.

 

Well, I understand the buy low sell high philosophy, you just have to know when to use it. I would have had no problem trading Sammy when he was good, because the team around him sucked so bad. Right now however, not only is DLee top 5 at his position, but ARam is top 5, and the Cubs have two elite level starting pitchers, and some other very talented arms. Ideally Hendry gets his head out of Dusty's busty and comes up with a plan to field a major league capable OF next year, and at least an average SS.

 

I think it could be very smart to trade certain players coming off career years, however, it's a risky move in more ways than one.

 

Trading certain players I can see. But I'll never agree with anyone that's willing to trade a triple crown and MVP candidate. Not to mention a gold glove fielder.

[frostwyrm]

I would have had no problem trading Sammy when he was good, because the team around him sucked so bad.

 

Yeah, I remember when the team was not close to being competitive and Sammy was eating up 20% of the payroll all by himself. I have never seen a better time to let a superstar go.

[goonys evil twin]

Trading certain players I can see. But I'll never agree with anyone that's willing to trade a triple crown and MVP candidate. Not to mention a gold glove fielder.

 

I don't view it as black and white as that. I mean, if some GM got crazy and offered the mother load, you would have to consider trading anybody. You'd be dumb to go out trying to sell him, but you should be willing to trade anybody for the right price, especially on a mediocre team. This isn't an "if it's not broke don't fix it" situation.

[dalgreen]

Perez was never, ever signed by the Cubs to be a starter.

 

When you sign a horrible player to back up a known injury risk you are taking a foolish gamble. A lot of us here on this message board knew Perez was very likely to get a whole lot of playing time. Now if he were Cal Ripken's backup that would be different.

 

Which is my central question? Does Perez get the blame or Hendry/Baker for being stupid enough to think that Nomar would be healthy? We all knew Neifi was going to be bad offensively. And I hate the fact that it sounds like I'm defending this scrub, but Neifi is being Neifi, which I'm trying to figure out why there has been lots of threads created about him when we all knew he was horrible. Maybe I'm burned out from posting since March that our outfield had the potential to be horrible, even if Patterson put up his short career numbers. And I could go on and on about how bad Perez was going to be. I guess I spent a lot of time talking about this horrible lineup all season that I'm almost immune to it.

[BleedCubbieBlue81]

Trading certain players I can see. But I'll never agree with anyone that's willing to trade a triple crown and MVP candidate. Not to mention a gold glove fielder.

 

I don't view it as black and white as that. I mean, if some GM got crazy and offered the mother load, you would have to consider trading anybody. You'd be dumb to go out trying to sell him, but you should be willing to trade anybody for the right price, especially on a mediocre team. This isn't an "if it's not broke don't fix it" situation.

 

No, I can agree with that. If some GM was willing to give you the moon, then you consider it. But the only way you do it is if it greatly helps the team. And trading away a triple crown threat rarely helps a team unless they can get one in return. Or two guys that can equal the production.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Call it picking and choosing if you like, but the fact is that Neifi's April was a fluke, and showing what he's done outside that month(which is closer to his career norms away from Coors) is probably a better indication of what he will do in the future, since we're talking about next year.

 

Not many people have mentioned Lee dropping off. I don't see what the point is. I haven't seen any threads discussing Lee's future production with the team, it's not like people are analyzing his numbers often and conveniently leaving it out.

 

I brought up Lee because one or two posters were criticized earlier in the month for suggesting trading Lee in the offseason due to his unlikliness to hit the way he did the first half of the season based on his career numbers. I could've sworn a couple of people who criticized the proposed trade are the ones talking about Perez's career numbers. Perez's offensive numbers stink, as we knew they would based on his career numbers. But the same must then be said of Lee, too; triple crown threat or not. As I said, you can't pick and choose. Lee's post ASB average is closer to his career norms than his numbers for the first three months. So, to me, anyone wanting to deal Lee while his value this high has a very good case.

 

I can only speak for myself, but I was on board with the idea of capitalizing on Lee's value. I don't remember any more specifics, so I don't know about how anyone else's position would have shifted.

[frostwyrm]

Perez was never, ever signed by the Cubs to be a starter.

 

When you sign a horrible player to back up a known injury risk you are taking a foolish gamble. A lot of us here on this message board knew Perez was very likely to get a whole lot of playing time. Now if he were Cal Ripken's backup that would be different.

 

Which is my central question? Does Perez get the blame or Hendry/Baker for being stupid enough to think that Nomar would be healthy? We all knew Neifi was going to be bad offensively. And I hate the fact that it sounds like I'm defending this scrub, but Neifi is being Neifi, which I'm trying to figure out why there has been lots of threads created about him when we all knew he was horrible. Maybe I'm burned out from posting since March that our outfield had the potential to be horrible, even if Patterson put up his short career numbers. And I could go on and on about how bad Perez was going to be. I guess I spent a lot of time talking about this horrible lineup all season that I'm almost immune to it.

 

Hendry/Baker get the blame. My point was that Neifi wasn't really a true backup IMO. If a guy is backing up an extremely healthy starter(Ripken) he might have only a 5% chance of getting lots of playing time. An average starter, maybe 20%. An injury-prone starter, 40%. An EXTREMELY injury-prone starter(Nomar), 70%. At what point do you say this guy is no longer a backup?

[goonys evil twin]

Does Perez get the blame or Hendry/Baker for being stupid enough to think that Nomar would be healthy? We all knew Neifi was going to be bad offensively. And I hate the fact that it sounds like I'm defending this scrub, but Neifi is being Neifi,

 

I really don't think it's a matter of placing blame where it belongs. The bottom line is he sucks and can't be a part of this team next year. Whether you hate Neifi for sucking so much, or hate Hendry for signing him with a crippled SS one broken nail from the DL, or hate Dusty for relying so heavily on him, the point is the Neifi situation is not good.

[erik316wttn]

If the Cubs choose Neifi over Nomar I'm seriously going to consider being done with this team.

 

Why do you think Perez will be the starting shortstop next year?

 

Read the very first post in this thread. It said the Cubs are likely to not re-sign Nomar, and they'll probably bring back Neifi.

[dalgreen]

If the Cubs choose Neifi over Nomar I'm seriously going to consider being done with this team.

 

Why do you think Perez will be the starting shortstop next year?

 

Read the very first post in this thread. It said the Cubs are likely to not re-sign Nomar, and they'll probably bring back Neifi.

 

I did read it. I read it to mean they'll bring back Neifi in the same way they brought him back in 2005, as a backup.

[imb]

A backup to who? Cedeno? I'll crap a Nokia if Dusty starts Cedeno over Neifi.

[frostwyrm]

If the Cubs choose Neifi over Nomar I'm seriously going to consider being done with this team.

 

Why do you think Perez will be the starting shortstop next year?

 

Read the very first post in this thread. It said the Cubs are likely to not re-sign Nomar, and they'll probably bring back Neifi.

 

I did read it. I read it to mean they'll bring back Neifi in the same way they brought him back in 2005, as a backup.

 

If Neifi returns to back up Nomar the predictable result is that Neifi will be the co-starter and not actually a backup at all, just as in 2005. I don't think Nomar can be counted on to be an everyday player anymore.

[dalgreen]

If the Cubs choose Neifi over Nomar I'm seriously going to consider being done with this team.

 

Why do you think Perez will be the starting shortstop next year?

 

Read the very first post in this thread. It said the Cubs are likely to not re-sign Nomar, and they'll probably bring back Neifi.

 

I did read it. I read it to mean they'll bring back Neifi in the same way they brought him back in 2005, as a backup.

 

If Neifi returns to back up Nomar the predictable result is that Neifi will be the co-starter and not actually a backup at all, just as in 2005. I don't think Nomar can be counted on to be an everyday player anymore.

 

I know this is a five page thread, but I said earlier that I don't think Nomar should be re-signed. I have no problem with Perez as a 25th man, but if Perez is signed, they better not have Hairston and Macias, too. They all do the same thing and none of them very well.

[J.R.]

Awful, awful news.

[YearofDaCubs]

Furcal and Cedeno should be our only options for SS next year. That is my opinion. About a week ago I would have liked ot have Nomar but now he has a back injury well when does it stop? Sorry, it's just not worth it. We need to get back into the playoffs and if we can't do it next year I want Hendry fired as well. No more of this cheap deals players never play top dollar to a free agent bs. I want a WS!!

[UK1679666180]

I'm still predicting that Furcal will be the most overpaid FA. Cedeno would be fine by me, but that money better be used to improve the OF.

 

Personally, Lugo will likely be equal to Furcal as far as production.

 

I think they can get Giles for what they'd spend on Damon or Furcal with 1 less year.

 

Perez is hitting like a 25th man, next year, if Dusty is back, I'd rather have Chris Gomez over Perez.

[wastra]

You can't keep comparing Neifi to a 25th man. He's NOT. He's the #1 substitute on this team. He's the 9th man. He's the primary infield backup.

 

On top of that- WE cannot compare our 25th man to a typical 25th man. Aside form how we feel about it, our manager has a philosophy that he wants to play all his guys as often as possible. There are some merits to that, and some downsides, but it's a trait Dusty has had for years, and one he openly espouses.

 

So given that strategy, WE need to field a much better bench than the average team. We cannot afford to have token hackers eating a bench spot becuase they're going to get far more at bats than the average bench hacker. It simply makes zero sense to have a manager with a certain style, then build a roster for an opposing style. So our bench can't really afford to have a 25th man.

[YearofDaCubs]

You can't keep comparing Neifi to a 25th man. He's NOT. He's the #1 substitute on this team. He's the 9th man. He's the primary infield backup.

 

On top of that- WE cannot compare our 25th man to a typical 25th man. Aside form how we feel about it, our manager has a philosophy that he wants to play all his guys as often as possible. There are some merits to that, and some downsides, but it's a trait Dusty has had for years, and one he openly espouses.

 

So given that strategy, WE need to field a much better bench than the average team. We cannot afford to have token hackers eating a bench spot becuase they're going to get far more at bats than the average bench hacker. It simply makes zero sense to have a manager with a certain style, then build a roster for an opposing style. So our bench can't really afford to have a 25th man.

Dusty has no business being a manager here anymore. He needs to go.

[dalgreen]

You can't keep comparing Neifi to a 25th man. He's NOT. He's the #1 substitute on this team. He's the 9th man. He's the primary infield backup.

 

On top of that- WE cannot compare our 25th man to a typical 25th man. Aside form how we feel about it, our manager has a philosophy that he wants to play all his guys as often as possible. There are some merits to that, and some downsides, but it's a trait Dusty has had for years, and one he openly espouses.

 

So given that strategy, WE need to field a much better bench than the average team. We cannot afford to have token hackers eating a bench spot becuase they're going to get far more at bats than the average bench hacker. It simply makes zero sense to have a manager with a certain style, then build a roster for an opposing style. So our bench can't really afford to have a 25th man.

 

I somewhat agree with you. But in the land of make believe where Nomar would've been able to play 140 games, Neifi would've only seen limited action, especially at the plate. I wouldn't have had a big problem with him starting every now and then to spell Nomar (those two words may never be placed together again). If Patterson had even performed decently this year, then Hairston, and not Perez, would've platooned with Walker against lefties earlier in the year. Dusty usually won't platoon real good to great players unless they are hurt or older. But hopefully Hendry won't re-sign Nomar in the off-season and Walker can remain healthy so that Neifi's at-bats will be minimal -- that is, if the Cubs really do re-sign Perez.

[UK1679666180]

If Patterson had even performed decently this year, then Hairston, and not Perez, would've platooned with Walker against lefties earlier in the year. Dusty usually won't platoon real good to great players unless they are hurt or older

 

Dusty shouldn't have platooned Walker as much as he did in the 1st place. Walker has been the 3rd best hitter on this team, yet he is being platooned for Perez?

 

Dumb move to begin with.

 

To have an effective platoon, you need one hitter to hit good one LH'ers and one hitter to hit good against RH'ers. The platoon backfires when one hitter hits better against both LH'ers and RH'ers as Walker does, then you're costing the team by having the lesser player out there. Regardless of the defensive advantage of Perez, the difference in offense for Walker dwarfs that.

[dalgreen]

If Patterson had even performed decently this year, then Hairston, and not Perez, would've platooned with Walker against lefties earlier in the year. Dusty usually won't platoon real good to great players unless they are hurt or older

 

Dusty shouldn't have platooned Walker as much as he did in the 1st place. Walker has been the 3rd best hitter on this team, yet he is being platooned for Perez?

 

Dumb move to begin with.

 

To have an effective platoon, you need one hitter to hit good one LH'ers and one hitter to hit good against RH'ers. The platoon backfires when one hitter hits better against both LH'ers and RH'ers as Walker does, then you're costing the team by having the lesser player out there. Regardless of the defensive advantage of Perez, the difference in offense for Walker dwarfs that.

 

I think Walker was platooned with earlier in the season to give his knee some rest since it wasn't 100%. At least that's what Baker said. I could understand it for the first month or so after he returned, but I didn't understand him being platooned after the ASB.

[MembersOnlyJacket]

I'm still predicting that Furcal will be the most overpaid FA. Cedeno would be fine by me, but that money better be used to improve the OF.

 

Here is the list of 2005-06 Free Agent SS:

 

Rey Ordonez

Barry Larkin (Retired)

Royce Clayton

Ricky Gutierrez

Jose Vizcaino

Chris Woodward

Desi Relaford

Alex Gonzalez (FLA)

Nomar Garciaparra

Deivi Cruz

Jose Hernandez

Jose Valentin

Luis Lopez

Ramon Martinez

Alex Gonzalez (TB)

Rafael Furcal

Benji Gil

Lou Merloni

Chris Gomez

Rich Aurilia

Rey Sanchez

Neifi Perez

 

Based on this pathetic group of players, I can see why you'd make the statement on Furcal being grossly overpaid. While the walk totals are still low for Cedeno, he has drastically improved the BB/K ratio this season relative to the rest of his pro career:

 

A - 02, 31/99, .313

A - 03, 21/82, .256

AA - 04, 24/74, .324

AAA - 05, 20/31, .645

Cubs - 05, 3/6, .500

 

This shows me that despite the low walk totals, he is developing a much greater knowledge of the strike zone. It is debatable as to whether Ronny is ready to play every day next season for the Cubs, but given the alternatives, it may be worth giving him the job. This is especially true if the Cubs acquire a marquee LF or RF'er and lessening the burden on a SS to produce big numbers.

[imb]

Unless a trade happens (Lugo!), I would love to bring Nomar back, planning on Cedeno being his injury sub/replacement.